I'm Commander Shepard and this is also my favorite thread on Obsidian

[HoonDing]

Bioware RPG model 101:

 

Gather party members [x][/u]

Kill a gazillion bad guys [x]

Have sex with somebody just before the last showdown [x]

Save the world [x]

Sex aside, that model would apply to 95% of RPGs.

 

NWN 2 perfectly fits the mold, even. R00fles!

Edited March 2, 2010 by virumor

[Oner]

Hardly.

[Guest Slinky]

Bioware RPG model 101:

 

Gather party members [x][/u]

Kill a gazillion bad guys [x]

Have sex with somebody just before the last showdown [x]

Save the world [x]

Sex aside, that model would apply to 95% of RPGs.

 

NWN 2 perfectly fits the mold, even. R00fles!

 

 

True enough, but if you would start playing Bio's games starting from KotOR all the way to ME2, there isn't much progress in the big picture. They are repeating the same thing over and over again.

 

Edit: Changed pig to big

Edited March 2, 2010 by Slinky

[Orogun01]

Bioware RPG model 101:

 

Gather party members [x][/u]

Kill a gazillion bad guys [x]

Have sex with somebody just before the last showdown [x]

Save the world [x]

Sex aside, that model would apply to 95% of RPGs.

 

NWN 2 perfectly fits the mold, even. R00fles!

 

 

True enough, but if you would start playing Bio's games starting from KotOR all the way to ME2, there isn't much progress in the big picture. They are repeating the same thing over and over again.

 

Edit: Changed pig to big

And because they struck gold each time Bioware has found the new WRPG's formula and is unlikely to change it.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Bioware RPG model 101:

 

Gather party members [x][/u]

Kill a gazillion bad guys [x]

Have sex with somebody just before the last showdown [x]

Save the world [x]

Sex aside, that model would apply to 95% of RPGs.

 

NWN 2 perfectly fits the mold, even. R00fles!

 

 

True enough, but if you would start playing Bio's games starting from KotOR all the way to ME2, there isn't much progress in the pig picture. They are repeating the same thing over and over again.

 

Now we wait for Volourn monosyllable response.

[Guest Slinky]

Sure, like any good factory would do..

[HoonDing]

Sure, like any good factory would do..

They'd only change if there were any significant competition around that forced them to change... but there isn't. Same goes for Bethesda & Blizzard.

 

They're the Microsofts of video game development, as it were. The CD Projekts, Piranha Bytes, Radon Labs, etc. -> Linux, Apple, etc.

Edited March 2, 2010 by virumor

[213374U]

And because they struck gold each time Bioware has found the new WRPG's formula and is unlikely to change it.

Unless you guys are suggesting that Bioware invented the epic poem, I'm not exactly sure where you're coming from, or how their sticking to a common but broad set of well known elements is a bad idea - rather, it's their execution of some of those elements that is sometimes lacking.

 

I sure as hell wouldn't want a RPG about groceries shopping and doing the laundry.

Edited March 2, 2010 by 213374U

[Gromnir]

Gawk. Three hours, uncountable deaths to close 3 shudder doors for Archangel.... I effing hate this game. RPG? I don't think so.

 

am reminded of reeses peanut butter cups. bio insists on recreating a digital peanut butter cup... "two great tastes that taste great together." jade empire were a fusion o' fighting game and rpg elements. the fighting game aspects o' je were not particularly challenging, and the rpg elements were lite, but some folks enjoyed well enough. too much fighter-game for Gromnir... and we didn't like the characters or story much. je did have an intriguing setting, but if you not like fighter games aspect... me 1 were combining supposed shooter and rpg, but am thinking that few rpg folks were daunted by me 1 combat; the shootery stuff was made visual appealing but non-lethal. Gromnir, who has limited use of his left hand (nerve damage) did not require many reloads due to inability to aim or find cover. we could die in me 1 if we chose particularly stoopid tactics, but lack o' mad shooterz skillz never resulted in me 1 death for us. me 2, on the other hand...

 

is no way in hell Gromnir could play me 2 on the pc. sure, the game looks superior and has better interface on pc, but me 2 wasd w/o auto-cover makes pc version me 2 functional impossible for our gimpy self. me 2 has far more shooter elements than did me 1, and the rpg elements o' me 2 character generation and development is proportional reduced.

 

we enjoyed me 2, but in terms o' character generation, development and combat, it is only barely a rpg.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[jaguars4ever]

I'd sure as hell wouldn't want a RPG about groceries shopping and doing the laundry.

...Meanwhile, back at Peter Molyneux's Think-Tank Base, RPG Division:

 

 

"Well done my minions. After much blood, toil, & deaths due to programmer aneurysms we have finally perfected a title worthy of our inflated hype promotions - House Wife 2: Return of the Homemaker. With the sheer permutations of household chore options to the fully customization grocery lists, our players will never play in the same house twice! With detergent that level scales to our players garments, every laundry cycle will become an epic battle of the bleaches! Keeping with our traditions, we have this day marked an unprecedented, yet ultimately pointless landmark in gaming history. We have transformed the neglected duties of doing the chores into a legendary quest to keep the hearth!"

[RPGmasterBoo]

Actually it has the same amount of shooter elements except now you're forced to play it as a cover based shooter, something you simply didn't have to do in ME. In ME you could Rambo stomp through the entire game, in ME2 you have to utilize the actual cover mechanics, which is making it very frustrating for people who either aren't used to shooter games or have some other problem like Gromnir.

 

I found it frustrating for other reasons - because the game limited my shooting skills honed on UT and CS to a retarded "pop up and shoot" minigame. Laughable compared to rocket launcher/AK skills needed in UT/CS.

 

For a team based shooter ME2 has extremely uncreative, single tactic gameplay. Epic fail if you think about it.

[Tel Aviv]

In all fairness to BioWare, ME2 departs somewhat from their usual shtick. NPC recruitment is the meat of the game. It's character, not plot based. Which is good, because the plot kinda sucks.

[Orogun01]

@Jaguars:

 

@213374U: Remember the Japanese formula that controlled the video game RPG's market during the 90's. Worked for them so well for so long that they are now stuck in creative hell coming up with new ideas to match the western market which continued to change. Basically, comfort= less creativity.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Three rules for making a Bioware game:

 

1 and most important: You must be able to bone everyone in the party

2 The plot must be written by a six year old right after he watches too many Saturday morning cartoons

3 There can never be enough inane, pointless conversations

[jaguars4ever]

Word to the BioBashers: Mocking Bio isn't going to make you enjoy their games less. Bashing Bio might be the anti-establishment thing to do for you habitual iconoclasts, but deep down you know you like it, which is why you keep playing Bio's games and posting in threads of their games. Kind of how you "movie critiques" watch James Cameron flicks for repeated viewings in order to catch those clich

[Jaesun]

You are on the wrong forums if you think you get cred points for bashing Bioware.

[Guest Slinky]

Now we wait for Volourn monosyllable response.

I save him the trouble: No. L0LZ. R00fles.

 

Did I forget something? Oh, right! Stop lying and trolling!

 

I found it frustrating for other reasons - because the game limited my shooting skills honed on UT and CS to a retarded "pop up and shoot" minigame. Laughable compared to rocket launcher/AK skills needed in UT/CS.

I got a disturbing image in my mind where shepard rocket jumps like a bunny around the battlefield.

[RPGmasterBoo]

Word to the BioBashers: Mocking Bio isn't going to make you enjoy their games less. Bashing Bio might be the anti-establishment thing to do for you habitual iconoclasts, but deep down you know you like it, which is why you keep playing Bio's games and posting in threads of their games. Kind of how you "movie critiques" watch James Cameron flicks for repeated viewings in order to catch those clich

[Tel Aviv]

Well, I consider myself a fan of BioWare. It's why I scrutinize their games so much. For what it's worth, I found ME2 an improvement over the original in almost every conceivable way. I just have some quibbles with the story development, is all.

[213374U]

I found it frustrating for other reasons - because the game limited my shooting skills honed on UT and CS to a retarded "pop up and shoot" minigame. Laughable compared to rocket launcher/AK skills needed in UT/CS.

"Laughable" how? In CS you need pinpoint accuracy, reflexes and most importantly map foreknowledge. In ME2, precision is nice to have, but knowing when to take cover and who to target is more important. It's a different game with a different focus - if I started making comparisons with Jedi Academy gameplay, how much sense would it make?

 

 

For a team based shooter ME2 has extremely uncreative, single tactic gameplay. Epic fail if you think about it.

It's funny that you say that, after you went on about how awesome you are at CS, possibly the most one-dimensional multiplayer shooter ever. CS is fun and addictive because it's multiplayer. Ever try playing with bots?

 

The main reasons why ME2 combat fails when compared to GoW (other examples welcome) are simplistic map design and a dismal AI. Basically it has two routines: (a) stay behind cover and take precision potshots at the player, regardless of whether the target is visible, and (b) advance towards the player, shooting along the way, ignoring all other considerations including obstacles/cover, map hazards and party members. It's really mind-****ing-boggling to activate tactical cloak, change places, decloak behind a door or cover only to see all enemies make use of their spider-sense to turn towards you and start pumping your cover full of bullets.

 

And then there's squadmates only finding out they were being shot when they fall unconscious, and to make things even more absurd, they deal only about ~60% of the player's damage. Yeah, we can't have squaddies doing all of Shepard's work.

 

And in spite of all of the above, it's still fun to play. Imagine if they got serious about making a shooter.

Edited March 2, 2010 by 213374U

[Volourn]

"I'd say it's just as much an RPG than ME1 was"

 

I agree... just dumbed down. R00fles!

 

 

 

"1 and most important: You must be able to bone everyone in the party"

 

I guess BIO fails at making BIO games since they have never made a game where this is possible.

 

 

"2 The plot must be written by a six year old right after he watches too many Saturday morning cartoons"

 

Prove it.

 

 

"3 There can never be enough inane, pointless conversations"

 

'innane pointless conversations' is a HUGE part of RPGs. Hell, fully half of PST conversations fall under that category. Almost everything Morte says except his convo at the Pillar of Skulls fits under that description.

 

 

ME2 is dumbed down not hard. I died a lot less in ME2 than I did in ME1 yet I had more fun with ME1 combat. In fact, the best encounters in ME2 were the tricky non standard ones. The best part of ME2 are the npcs, conversations, and atmospehre. Combat is passable fun only a little better than KOTOR because even dumbed down ME combat is vastly sueprior to extremely dumbed down D&D combat.

[RPGmasterBoo]

"Laughable" how? In CS you need pinpoint accuracy, reflexes and most importantly map foreknowledge. In ME2, precision is nice to have, but knowing when to take cover and who to target is more important. It's a different game with a different focus - if I started making comparisons with Jedi Academy gameplay, how much sense would it make?

 

Except there is no "knowing" when to take cover - you just jump in the nearest one available when the enemy starts shooting - if you don't want to die. All the levels are tunnels, the enemies never miss so you're not really given much tactical choice at all. Targeting priority? Huh? Most of the time you target the enemy that's closing in - that's it, the rest you can pick off at leisure. You don't really need to learn or practice anything to be good at it. Also there is no real improvement to be made, you can master the game after an hour of gameplay, at the end you're pretty much the same as you began.

 

You need hours upon hours of playing time to be considered remotely good at CS. Being able to score a headshot half a map away requires tons of practice. There is a huge difference between a good CS player and a beginner. What's the difference between any ME2 player?

 

Because you're invulnerable in cover, because there are no grenades, because there is no real way to efficiently change position in combat areas and because you don't really need to aim much, you tell me - what sort of skill is required to play ME2?. You're stuck in cover, pop up, shoot, cover, shoot, cover, rinse, repeat.

 

ME2's combat sucks in comparison to virtually every shooter ever created for that simple reason - there's nothing in it to be mastered. Its akin to an arcade game with a single ever repeating level.

 

It's funny that you say that, after you went on about how awesome you are at CS, possibly the most one-dimensional multiplayer shooter ever. CS is fun and addictive because it's multiplayer. Ever try playing with bots?

And in spite of all of the above, it's still fun to play. Imagine if they got serious about making a shooter.

 

CS played on random servers and CS played in a clan with a real team are two different games. Its simple to learn, but hard to master - an essential quality in a good game. Yeah rounds are very much alike, but there is a world of difference between knowing the basics and really knowing how to play. Of course you completely ignored UT since it doesn't fit your argument.

 

You master ME2 when you past the basics. Because it doesn't require thinking in advance or at least quick reflexes, do tell, where are the dimensions in ME2?

[jaguars4ever]

In your terminology Bio games (after BGII IMO) would be an expensive hoe that would give you the time of your life - but for one night. While that's fine, on occasion, you'll still value the gf more because she's here to stay - even if she is a bit mundane between the sheets.

Now you're speaking my language.

 

Still, I'd much rather get my explosive B

io

-job, than sandbox nagging & micromanagement.

[213374U]

Targeting priority? Huh? Most of the time you target the enemy that's closing in - that's it, the rest you can pick off at leisure.

Sure. Try playing on a different difficulty level, the game plays differently. Leave an engineer alone on hardcore, his drone will make you stagger out of cover - you die. Usually enemies with heavy weapons are more of a priority than the ones with pistols, unshielded foes take priority over protected targets, etc. And boss fights require custom tactics, too.

 

It's really, really childish to come bragging that you can master the game in an hour, if you play on Casual.

 

 

You don't really need to learn or practice anything to be good at it. Also there is no real improvement to be made, you can master the game after an hour of gameplay, at the end you're pretty much the same as you began.

1. Roll a Vanguard

2. Choose "Insanity"

3. ???

4. PROFIT!!!

 

You see, the thing is I have posted evidence that contradicts your (and Volly's) nonsense that the only way to play is hiding behind cover. All you have posted in return is... *waaah waah my mad CS skillz are no good in a different game waah waaah*

 

 

You need hours upon hours of playing time to be considered remotely good at CS. Being able to score a headshot half a map away requires tons of practice. There is a huge difference between a good CS player and a beginner. What's the difference between any ME2 player?

Err... I thought this should be obvious, but apparently I'm wrong. CS is a multiplayer game. Multiplayer games are, by their very nature, much more competitive and replayable. Learning curves have nothing to do with this - you can learn how to play CS in ten minutes. Refining your skills is only necessary and fun because there is a point in doing so, as it's a multiplayer game. A better comparison would be between HL and ME2. But then again, there's no need to land a 3-round burst headshot there, as the penalty for failing is merely a reload, and there's no reason to log the staggering number of hours required for that anyway.

 

Come think of it, why the hell am I doing your comparisons for you?

 

Go on, establish a comparison between ME2 and The Sims, for greater dramatic effect (and hilarity).

 

I'm now going to quote and examine your arguments piecemeal. Brace for impact!

 

 

Because you're invulnerable in cover

Not quite. You are invulnerable from a certain reduced angle only. I'm not quite sure what you're getting at.

 

 

because there are no grenades

But on the other hand, you have biotics and tech powers that work pretty much like grenades and can hit targets behind cover.

 

 

because there is no real way to efficiently change position in combat areas

Wrong again. Try Charge. Or Tactical Cloak. Or Combat Drone. Seriously, have you played this game, or are you just going by some review?

 

 

and because you don't really need to aim much,

You need to aim just enough to hit their head. How much more do you want? AFAIK, hitting the eyes doesn't deal extra damage in CS. And again, there isn't much need for extreme precision aiming in HL, or even in CS if you play against n00bs.

 

 

you tell me - what sort of skill is required to play ME2?. You're stuck in cover, pop up, shoot, cover, shoot, cover, rinse, repeat.[...]

 

You master ME2 when you past the basics. Because it doesn't require thinking in advance or at least quick reflexes, do tell, where are the dimensions in ME2?

You'd need to play the game a bit more to get the answer to that question. And, you know, try something that doesn't involve your fool-proof strategy of having fights drag on and on as you hide behind cover for your shield to replenish - I can see how that would be boring.

 

 

CS played on random servers and CS played in a clan with a real team are two different games. Its simple to learn, but hard to master - an essential quality in a good game. Yeah rounds are very much alike, but there is a world of difference between knowing the basics and really knowing how to play. Of course you completely ignored UT since it doesn't fit your argument.

LOL, I ignored UT because it's even more of a generic shooter than CS - there's virtually no difference between UT deathmatches and their Q3A and JK2 equivalents. You just run and gun, learning the maps by memory, camping at good spots, spawn-fragging and rocket-whoring your way to the top of the list. "Master" one and you have mastered them all; mechanics remain exactly the same, and only guns and maps change. Just up your mouse sensitivity to the top, remap the "jump" key, and you're good to go.

[mr insomniac]

Don't really see how ME2 can be compared to shooters anyway. Yes ME2 is a little more combat-centric than ME, but I don't think anyone anywhere ever claimed it is a shooter. So comparisons to games that are shooters are irrelevant. ME2 is an RPG and, apart from the combat, there are some decent role-playing elements.

 

And one thing to keep in mind is that Shepard and the gang are wandering around the Terminus systems now. C-Sec and the Alliance aren't present, aren't respected, aren't even welcomed there. Aria says it herself when Shepard tries to toot his own horn a little bit, "Omega doesn't care about you." Life is survival of the fittest, and you get tested on that alot, heh.

 

I hope that anyone who finds the combat frustrating/boring/un-fun - has the patience enough to get through it and to get to Horizon and the different loyalty missions, and learning about the collectors, the geth, the quarians and the krogan. Lots more combat to follow, yeah, but you learn as you go and come up with tactics that work for you, and get to the interesting character development and choices to make as well.