Mass Effect 2 Discussion

[Volourn]

"I wasn't judging the species or their implementation. I was just offering the thought that this 'stereotyping' is a common way to differentiate between humans and other species (aliens or whatever)."

 

True, true. An ultra violent race definitely isn't new. Heck, different real worldm human cultures wer eoftend efine by their 'war like nature' afterall.

 

 

"You must have been playing the Director's Cut."

 

You must have been playing a different ME series than everyone else. Sure, vioence/war is their defining feature; but they are so much more than that. And, they show capacity to learn,a dapt, and see the 'error' of their ays. Wrex is a huge example of this. Lets' not forget that one krogan in love with the asari. Hell, the guy is singing (bad) poetry. The games are not so subtley 'littered' with examples of krogans were violence isn't #1 on their mind. The fish desiring krogan is another.

 

 

"Didn't work for Klingons,"

 

Says you. Klingons were popualr enough that they were given more depth in ST:TNG and beyond after just being a war like enemy for the Federation. And,w ar was just part of their character. You think Worf was just about violence, war, and depth by the end of his run? I don't think so.

 

 

"But they could do it when they imagined the Thorian, the rachni, the Reapers, the geth..."

 

Hmm... I wodner what these races have in common... Inetresting...

Edited February 10, 2010 by Volourn

[Raithe]

Hm, well its not as if the Krogans developed totally naturally. There's even the conversation with Mordin at some point where he regrets what the Salarians did. He does the commentary that "to develop to x point, a species has to deal with the warlike attitudes, but we bypassed that for the Krogans by giving them the technology and pointing them at the Rachni. If we'd left them alone they could have worked it out naturally." .. or words to that effect.

 

Also, the Krogan Blood Rage - it get's pointed out (in the Codex entry I believe) that before the Salarians uplifted the Krogan race, the Blood Rage was considered a pathological condition, was rare, and treated as such, as some form of disease.

But after the Salarians had uplifted them, and they'd destroyed their own world and had to rebuild and regrow.. only those with the Blood Rage had survived the fallout and general apocalypse conditions. So it's almost unheard of for modern-day Krogan to not have the Blood Rage.

[Chrisimo]

It only becomes silly for sure when you look at it from a human perspective and apply human standards to other species.

Good points. But they could do it when they imagined the Thorian, the rachni, the Reapers, the geth...

 

I'm not sure I understand you here. Did you mean to say that they didn't use this stereotyping when imagining the Thorian, the Rachni, etc.? Or that they should have done it with them?

Because the examples you mention aren't yet explored enough to make any decisions about whether they are all alike or not.

 

As for the more anthropomorphic species, the krogan are the only race lacking individual distinctiveness past the cultural stereotyping. Quarians, turians, asari, you meet a lot of different characters. Krogan... not so much. Even the "scientists" have a warlike mindset. Didn't work for Klingons, doesn't work for krogan.

 

And no, a culture like that couldn't have discovered fission. It would have been destroyed while trying to attack cultures with a more utilitarian approach to war. War isn't about who has the toughest warriors - it's about who has the biggest production and the most manpower. It's debatable whether the krogan culture in Mass Effect is a product of the defeatism and irredentism brought about by the genophage... but that doesn't do anything about the lack of depth of krogan NPCs.

 

Hmm, not sure about that. The Krogans are warmongers, allright. But a lot of it could be attributed to their destroyed homeworld or the genophage, as you said. Regardless of the explanation the Krogans are still a race that appeal to some of the audience (for some because of their lack of depth and for others despite of that). Maybe the warmonger mindset is the favorite to use for stereotypes, who knows. In any case I just wanted to say that there may be a good reason to have a race or culture where all members are alike. At least it makes it easier to love/hate those species

[Raithe]

Hmm, not sure about that. The Krogans are warmongers, allright. But a lot of it could be attributed to their destroyed homeworld or the genophage, as you said. Regardless of the explanation the Krogans are still a race that appeal to some of the audience (for some because of their lack of depth and for others despite of that). Maybe the warmonger mindset is the favorite to use for stereotypes, who knows. In any case I just wanted to say that there may be a good reason to have a race or culture where all members are alike. At least it makes it easier to love/hate those species

 

Maybe it's because the "warmonger" aspects are in-line of the Krogan being the "ultimate jocks".

 

That might appeal to the gamer-jocks more then the gamer-geeks

[213374U]

Wrex is the only example of this.

Fixed.

 

 

Lets' not forget that one krogan in love with the asari. Hell, the guy is singing (bad) poetry. The games are not so subtley 'littered' with examples of krogans were violence isn't #1 on their mind. The fish desiring krogan is another.

The krogan and the asari thing isn't representative of anything - you don't even get to talk to him. If there was a krogan doing somersaults, it wouldn't lend much more support to what you are trying (and failing) to show. And the fish-obsessed krogan talks about going to the presidium and killing all turians there. How was that you said... Oh yeah:

I like it when people abck it up espciially when they are trying to disprove me. L0L

So, where can I get Bizarro Effect?

 

 

Says you. Klingons were popualr enough that they were given more depth in ST:TNG and beyond after just being a war like enemy for the Federation. And,w ar was just part of their character. You think Worf was just about violence, war, and depth by the end of his run? I don't think so.

I'm not going to get dragged into a discussion about ST with you. Suffice to say that even the writers disagree with you about that enough to add another facet to the race in ENT. Klingon lawyer?! OMFG N0z

 

 

Hmm... I wodner what these races have in common... Inetresting...

That they are in ME? Seriously, chances are you are just drawing another imaginary connection, that doesn't actually exist anywhere else...

 

 

Also, the Krogan Blood Rage - it get's pointed out (in the Codex entry I believe) that before the Salarians uplifted the Krogan race, the Blood Rage was considered a pathological condition, was rare, and treated as such, as some form of disease.

But after the Salarians had uplifted them, and they'd destroyed their own world and had to rebuild and regrow.. only those with the Blood Rage had survived the fallout and general apocalypse conditions. So it's almost unheard of for modern-day Krogan to not have the Blood Rage.

IIRC, the blood rage thing is "promoted" to survive in the post-nuclear environment and had nothing to do with the salarians. Which is pretty stupid by itself and another excellent example of what I'm saying, as it's not uber macho bull**** that can rebuild a society but initiative, intelligence and, yeah, you guessed it: production. Looks like somebody in the writing team isn't familiar with the concept of diminishing returns.

 

 

In any case I just wanted to say that there may be a good reason to have a race or culture where all members are alike. At least it makes it easier to love/hate those species

Can't argue with their popularity. Can't argue with Paulina Rubio's popularity, either.

[Chrisimo]

IIRC, the blood rage thing is "promoted" to survive in the post-nuclear environment and had nothing to do with the salarians. Which is pretty stupid by itself and another excellent example of what I'm saying, as it's not uber macho bull**** that can rebuild a society but initiative, intelligence and, yeah, you guessed it: production. Looks like somebody in the writing team isn't familiar with the concept of diminishing returns.

 

The Krogans are dying out because of their mindset. At least that much is said by Wrex. So it's not like the writers haven't thought about the problematic nature of the Krogan singlemindedness in relation to their survival. The fact that they installed Wrex as the leader shows that the writers think like you. Remember that before the genophage the Krogans at least had the numbers. If only one of 1000 births is successfull then they at least had the manpower aspect covered before the genophage. It is even possible that their wars were an effective way to keep the population in check. I think it would be really illuminating to have transcriptions of everything the writer have discussed during the creation of the Krogan species. It's easy to dismiss their development as stupid or lacking in thought when you do not know the writers thoughts behind that.

[Raithe]

Also, the Krogan Blood Rage - it get's pointed out (in the Codex entry I believe) that before the Salarians uplifted the Krogan race, the Blood Rage was considered a pathological condition, was rare, and treated as such, as some form of disease.

But after the Salarians had uplifted them, and they'd destroyed their own world and had to rebuild and regrow.. only those with the Blood Rage had survived the fallout and general apocalypse conditions. So it's almost unheard of for modern-day Krogan to not have the Blood Rage.

IIRC, the blood rage thing is "promoted" to survive in the post-nuclear environment and had nothing to do with the salarians. Which is pretty stupid by itself and another excellent example of what I'm saying, as it's not uber macho bull**** that can rebuild a society but initiative, intelligence and, yeah, you guessed it: production. Looks like somebody in the writing team isn't familiar with the concept of diminishing returns.

 

I wasn't saying that the Salarians had anything to do with the Blood Rage itself. Just that before the Krogans were uplifted, before they had the technology to destroy themselves, the Krogans actually viewed the Blood Rage as a bad thing. It was only after the whole given advanced tech, blow themselves up, and the Blood Rage becoming a near universal thing to the Krogans that they stopped viewing it as a bad thing.

 

And frankly, the Krogans as is, come off like the psycho gangs in any apocalypse movie.. because they haven't rebuilt anything. They've reverted to the tribal clan structures. They don't really have their own spaceships, they don't seem to have much in the way of production at the moment. If it wasn't for other people turning up to hire them as mercs you wouldn't really see them off-world.

 

Heck, Wrex is the one that's actually trying to rebuild the Krogan's as a "unified" society. He is showing initiative, and attempting to use intelligence and increase the production of the species. But he's mostly the exception to the Krogan rule.

Edited February 10, 2010 by Raithe

[Gromnir]

Also, the Krogan Blood Rage - it get's pointed out (in the Codex entry I believe) that before the Salarians uplifted the Krogan race, the Blood Rage was considered a pathological condition, was rare, and treated as such, as some form of disease.

But after the Salarians had uplifted them, and they'd destroyed their own world and had to rebuild and regrow.. only those with the Blood Rage had survived the fallout and general apocalypse conditions. So it's almost unheard of for modern-day Krogan to not have the Blood Rage.

IIRC, the blood rage thing is "promoted" to survive in the post-nuclear environment and had nothing to do with the salarians. Which is pretty stupid by itself and another excellent example of what I'm saying, as it's not uber macho bull**** that can rebuild a society but initiative, intelligence and, yeah, you guessed it: production. Looks like somebody in the writing team isn't familiar with the concept of diminishing returns.

 

I wasn't saying that the Salarians had anything to do with the Blood Rage itself. Just that before the Krogans were uplifted, before they had the technology to destroy themselves, the Krogans actually viewed the Blood Rage as a bad thing. It was only after the whole given advanced tech, blow themselves up, and the Blood Rage becoming a near universal thing to the Krogans that they stopped viewing it as a bad thing.

 

And frankly, the Krogans as is, come off like the psycho gangs in any apocalypse movie.. because they haven't rebuilt anything. They've reverted to the tribal clan structures. They don't really have their own spaceships, they don't seem to have much in the way of production at the moment. If it wasn't for other people turning up to hire them as mercs you wouldn't really see them off-world.

 

Heck, Wrex is the one that's actually trying to rebuild the Krogan's as a "unified" society. He is showing initiative, and attempting to use intelligence and increase the production of the species. But he's mostly the exception to the Krogan rule.

 

 

bold quote is the reason we find wrex superior to grunt. when grunt gets flushed from tank he is having infinite possibilities for development... he doesn't accept his conditioning. 'course, in virtual no time at all, the me2 writers is having grunt act likes stereotype krogan, which ain't such a bad thing, but seemed somewhat anti-climactic. also, is kinda strange that grunt were one o' the more stable and undamaged o' your crew mates. sure, he gotta go through some rite o' passage ritual 'fore he can gets his rage stabilized, but compared to the rest o' the crew and their family traumas, grunt is a poster child for mental health.

 

 

 

am hopeful that me3 sees grunt gets better development... 'cause we were slight disappointed with me2 grunt.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[213374U]

The Krogans are dying out because of their mindset. At least that much is said by Wrex. So it's not like the writers haven't thought about the problematic nature of the Krogan singlemindedness in relation to their survival. The fact that they installed Wrex as the leader shows that the writers think like you. Remember that before the genophage the Krogans at least had the numbers. If only one of 1000 births is successfull then they at least had the manpower aspect covered before the genophage. It is even possible that their wars were an effective way to keep the population in check. I think it would be really illuminating to have transcriptions of everything the writer have discussed during the creation of the Krogan species. It's easy to dismiss their development as stupid or lacking in thought when you do not know the writers thoughts behind that.

The krogans are dying because of the genophage and the wanderlust which is a result of it; but the warlike mindset predates it by far. Wrex is simply trying to find a way to prevent the extinction of the krogan around the genophage.

 

The reason societies progress forward is because their advances give them a decisive edge over competitors. That it takes player intervention (made flesh in Wrex) for a krogan to even propose these changes is exactly what I'm complaining about. How many other krogan share his views? Have you tried importing a save where Wrex died on Virmire?

 

As for what the writers may have been thinking... irrelevant speculation. Only meaningful discussion can be about what is in the game, no?

 

 

I wasn't saying that the Salarians had anything to do with the Blood Rage itself. Just that before the Krogans were uplifted, before they had the technology to destroy themselves, the Krogans actually viewed the Blood Rage as a bad thing. It was only after the whole given advanced tech, blow themselves up, and the Blood Rage becoming a near universal thing to the Krogans that they stopped viewing it as a bad thing.

The blood rage thing was already present when the krogan were uplifted. The codex (just checked) says their planet was destroyed in nuclear war four thousand years ago, roughly two or three thousand years before the salarians made contact. The blood rage is explained as an overwhelmingly advantageous trait from a natural selection perspective, which is crazy-silly. In a post-gunpowder society, physical toughness and blind aggression aren't decisive.

 

Psycho gangs in post-apoc scenarios aren't alone: they prey on settlements. Who do these barbarian krogan prey upon? Each other? How long would it take for such a society to collapse or evolve?

 

One-dimensional.

[alanschu]

Really enjoyed the game

[Malcador]

Really enjoyed the game

 

Damn, I was expecting you to hate it as overrated garbage.

[Volourn]

" In a post-gunpowder society, physical toughness and blind aggression aren't decisive."

 

Tell that to a charging Krogan as he runs you over. Of course, with the uber ME2 style punch... maybe not so much.

 

 

 

"One-dimensional."

 

Nah. Wrex disproves this. Even thoguh you ignore, the krogan with the asari lover disproves this. Various other krogan aren't all all abotui violence even fi that is currently their defining chararistic. btw, All the other classes that you seem to be praising for not being one dimensional sure have a certain aspect of their cultture that is highly common and overhwelms others - asari and their sexing up other races, turians and THEIR war like nature (hey, their first thought when they originally encountered humans was KILL! KILL! KILL!), the hanar and their everlasting love of the protheans, those dwarf like creatures and their love of money - seriously is there even one of those that isn't preoccuppied when money/power/influence? List goes on.

 

Get out of the human mindset. Krogans are *aliens* for a reason, and that's a good thing.

[entrerix]

favorite party members in order

 

The good

1. Jack - EXTREMELY grating at first, but for some reason by the end of the game i was happiest that she lived to appear in the 3rd game (maybe because she and miranda were in my party for 90% of the game?)

2. Legion - just too cool, plus, hes one of the most sane characters... yeah, think about what that says re rest of crew

3. Thane - stoic but not boring

4. Miranda - not a big fan of her personality, but sooo useful as a party member, plus, nice model...

5. Mordin - dude is awesome, would be higher up but i just didnt find him useful in combat compared to the above people

5.5 Garrus - good ol garrus, makes for a solid soldier but not incredibly interesting

 

The bad

6. Grunt - didnt really care for him, way too one-note, even for this cast

7. Morinth - super useful abilities, but HORRIBLY ANNOYING AND FUGLY

8. Zaeed - not enough meat to the character, but cool voice

9. Tali - BORING BORING

10. Jacob - BORING BORING BORING

 

why did i write this list?

 

cause im an idiot

Edited February 10, 2010 by entrerix

[Jaesun]

I'm just mad I can't purchase and then wander the Normandy in my Asari Burial robe.

[Purkake]

I liked Mordin, Garrus and Miranda.

 

While having a Geth around was a great idea, he comes in too late and feels more of a gimmick than an actual fleshed out character.

[Raithe]

" In a post-gunpowder society, physical toughness and blind aggression aren't decisive."

 

That's judging purely by human standards.

Krogan have the whole.. multiple redundant organs, an extra nervous system, and the big hump that stores water/food type stuff. When a big hump is a sign that you're a successful hunter and have been able to take on the very predatory wildlife of sunny Tuchanka.. and that gets you scoring points with the ladies and being able to breed...

 

Krogan society keeps bouncing from advanced to wasteland.. if it wasn't for all the alien contact they wouldn't have the "steady" aspect of technology available.

[Gromnir]

"Get out of the human mindset. Krogans are *aliens* for a reason, and that's a good thing. "

 

there are no genuine alien characters in mass effect or mass effect 2-- and that ain't a criticism. makes genuine alien and you remove possibility of simple empathy and understanding. for a story-driven game to work it is necessary for krogan and even geth to be human. sure, they is savage tribals who were forcibly evolved and then smacked down hard via a disease that attacked their native fecundity, but there is nothing alien 'bout krogan emotions and characters... they is human, regardless of how they looks.

 

some silicon-based puddle of goo from tralfax iv could be making for an intriguing alien, but unless it gots recognizable human emotions and motivations it would never be suitable as a crpg character.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Volourn]

Agreed but some like the hanar or rachni do to push it. But, unsurprisingly, you also don't see them as joinables either.. for a reason. In fact, the hanar are treated more like a cosmic joke though I like their relationship in a way with Thane's people. And, the rachni.. well.. they're the rachni. Intelligent bugs. That says it all.

 

True 'aliens' (ie. beyond human capacity to truly understand) just rally couldn't cut it. Most aliens in scfi basically cover what most races in fantasy do - have a 'human trait or traits' taken to the EXTREME.

 

 

 

My fave ME2 npcs....

 

 

1. Miranda - I say this without even romancing her. In fact, turned her down. She shows actual growth, and epth during the game. The fact I like her despite loathing Cerberus says a lot, I think.

 

2. Garrus - He's kewl;. Not much more needs to be said, though,m he was truly anal during his mission. But, his whole Archangel shtick (and that mission) was sweet.

 

3. Mordin - All I'll say is by the end of his loyalty mission, I wasn't 100% sure what side of the whole genoforge dilemma I was actually on. Impressive.

 

4. Jacob - Yeah, he's not emo like most of the others; but that's bonus points for him. I also love his conviction and reaction to pops. I also love his very last line about it when youn talk with him later on the ship. So poignant, so touching, so true.

 

5. Ms. Justicar - Wow. Family issues but wow.

 

6. Tali - Solid character all around. Bonus points for being a returnee.

 

7. Legion - Haven't got him yet but he's a geth so he's gotz to be kewl.

 

8. Thane - A 'good guy' assassin done right. His emo sob story with son hurts the character and drops it down.

 

9. Grunt - Only this high because he leads you to Wrex. Like grom suggests, lots of potential; but ultimiately a letdown.

 

10. Zaeed - Boring. I love his loyalty mission espicially the choice at the end. Otherwise, waste of space.

 

11. Jack - FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU HOW DO YOU LIEK THEM APPLES, BLANK!!

[213374U]

Nah. Wrex disproves this. Even thoguh you ignore, the krogan with the asari lover disproves this. Various other krogan aren't all all abotui violence even fi that is currently their defining chararistic. btw, All the other classes that you seem to be praising for not being one dimensional sure have a certain aspect of their cultture that is highly common and overhwelms others - asari and their sexing up other races, turians and THEIR war like nature (hey, their first thought when they originally encountered humans was KILL! KILL! KILL!), the hanar and their everlasting love of the protheans, those dwarf like creatures and their love of money - seriously is there even one of those that isn't preoccuppied when money/power/influence? List goes on.

When you have something that is completely different from the group you are trying to analyze it's not "proof" of anything, it's an exception. Again, the krogan with the poetry only shows that krogan are capable of memorising random crap. Once more, you don't get to talk with him, so any conclusions you draw are made up, 100%. Go on, find more examples of the diversity in krogan character. Heh, even their scientists are like that, "there's ALWAYS room for one more weapon in Tuchanka!" "we measure success when the earth trembles in response!", etc.

 

Other races have a more or less dominant trait but, unlike the krogan, that doesn't preclude their development of different, individual personas.

 

 

Get out of the human mindset. Krogans are *aliens* for a reason, and that's a good thing.

Eh, the krogan aren't really alien, as grom said. They are simply barbaric, and dumb. Lol, walking unprotected on a venus-like world just to prove how tough you are? Really, Bioware?

 

 

That guy is alien. The krogan are a caricaturized version of the gaulish warrior tribes of the classical period. Think of Grunt as an uglier, meaner version of Obelix.

 

 

That's judging purely by human standards.

Krogan have the whole.. multiple redundant organs, an extra nervous system, and the big hump that stores water/food type stuff. When a big hump is a sign that you're a successful hunter and have been able to take on the very predatory wildlife of sunny Tuchanka.. and that gets you scoring points with the ladies and being able to breed...

So... what? Obviously krogan aren't going to be shooting at each other with .22 peashooters. And a redundant liver isn't going to do much good if a 20mm round connects with your faceplate. They even get the reference in-game that, after the invention of gunpowder, the #1 cause of death changed to gunshot wound. So, actually that's judging by krogan standards.

 

 

Krogan society keeps bouncing from advanced to wasteland.. if it wasn't for all the alien contact they wouldn't have the "steady" aspect of technology available.

As far as I know, the krogan only nuked themselves back to stone age once. I may have missed any references to that being more or less a cyclical occurrence?

[Volourn]

Nobody claimed krogans were geniuses.

 

 

"That guy is alien."

 

That doesn't act any differently than some animals on Earth. *shrug*

[213374U]

That doesn't act any differently than some animals on Earth. *shrug*

In one of the documentaries of the "making of", they speak about the ambiguity present in those, regarding their intelligence. Apparently, they wanted to make them obviously intelligent, but it's difficult to imagine true intelligence that doesn't immediately remind you of human intelligence. So they had to compromise between that and what are seemingly animalistic traits, to get a distinct non-human, alien feel. The thing in the picture is what they got.

 

Not many animals on Earth can manipulate an elevator after watching somebody operate it just once, use the blood of another individual to elaborate an escape plan, shut down power to facilitate an ambush, etc.

Edited February 10, 2010 by 213374U

[Calax]

I didn't like grunt. The Krogan in general are interesting in that they breed like crazy but are somehow able to develop scientifically to the point of gunpowder. I find it odd to think that they could transfer and gain knowledge fast enough to figure out nuclear fusion when their lives are basically fighting to survive.

 

The Krogans are more than just one dimentional "WAR!" types. Wrex shows this, as does the shaman and the female leader wrex mentions.

 

Honestly my favorite characters were tali and Legion. I just love legion and want to see a LOT more of him in ME3

[mr insomniac]

Didn't Mordin say something along the lines of the Krogan being given the use of advanced technology, as in advanced beyond their natural means, in order to fight the Rachni? his general point was that the Krogan didn't advance their civilization on their own, and so didn't evolve too far beyond their warlike natures. I can't remember all the conversations about the genophage word for word, but something like that was in there somewhere.

[Deraldin]

I feel that I must reiterate. Damn you Bioware! I back up three hours to go get Mordin's loyalty, do Garrus mission so I can get around his damn conversation loop and then run through the end game all over again, only to have Tali die on me instead. WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ME?!

[RPGmasterBoo]

There is a chance that the tech character will die regardless, its random. I heard he/she gets hit by a missile or something. Replay the mission and it probably wont happen.