The TV and Streaming Thread: That's Entertainment!

[Sarex]

Heroes is the perfect example of power creep. They wrote themselves in to a corner.

[ShadySands]

Wasn't Heroes supposed to be an anthology show that got stuck with its original cast because of how popular it became?

Didn't that also happen to Stranger Things?

[Zoraptor]

2 hours ago, ShadySands said:

Wasn't Heroes supposed to be an anthology show that got stuck with its original cast because of how popular it became?

Sounds like not quite a full on anthology.

Quote

Kring says the origin aspect of superheroes intrigues him the most and "Heroes" was originally meant to operate more like an anthology with new characters regularly appearing and confronting new-found powers. The realities of production interfered with this plan. "The networks fall in love with certain characters, the audience falls in love with certain characters, the press falls in love with certain characters, they don't want to see those characters go," he explained. Between contracts, availability, and studio notes, the set of lead "Heroes" characters became firmly planted.

I'd be pretty confident that Sylar (especially) and Peter were not meant to be full time characters but were kept around because of the audience/ network. Probably Claire too.

4 hours ago, Sarex said:

Heroes is the perfect example of power creep. They wrote themselves in to a corner.

Here I'd say that power creep was a symptom. The ultimate problem was network demands to keep Sylar around. That necessitated two things that were critical problems- yes, you had to depower him regularly but you also had to come up with reasons why he didn't get killed off by the good guys and a way for him to interact with them and not be randomly off doing his own thing. Those requirements got increasingly implausible the more they were used and often made the protagonists look like idiots.

Sometimes you just have to kill off the bad guy, no matter how good he is at being the bad guy. And to be fair, Quinto's Sylar was an extremely effective villain in S1. But, well, would anyone think having Gus Fring or Trinity survive in Breaking Bad or Dexter would improve either show despite Esposito and Lithgow's great performances? That would be a pretty categorical no.

Edited January 13 by Zoraptor

[Lexx]

I just wanted that asian guy to become an actual super hero. I can't remember deeper details of the show, but I think that never actually happened. Instead it just went on and on and on. Sad.

Edited January 13 by Lexx

[LadyCrimson]

On 1/11/2025 at 9:28 AM, Hurlshort said:

The whole appointment television time was such a fascinating phenomenon. I mean it existed for decades, of course, but mostly in the sitcom format that didn't have long-term stakes.

If "sitcom" =30 min and/or comedy, there were always lots of 1-hr drama/action type shows around, maybe especially 60's/70's/80's.  Bonanza, Perry Mason, The Fugitive, Little House on the Prairie, Rockford Files, Emergency, Columbo, The Walton's, Quincy MD, Lou Grant, Dallas, Hill Street Blues, plus all the later sci-fi like Stargates, Star Treks, Lost in Space etc. They'd largely air those after 9pm - after kiddie bedtimes I guess - so 30 min game/sitcom shows first, dramas later.  But agreed on the mostly/all episodic, or maybe a 2-3 episode arc.  It definitely was the 2000's where the never ending serial-plot tv series seriously took off in the US.

I don't miss not being able to binge-whatever/whenever, but even back then, any cliffhanger wait was usually only 4-5 months - vs. the often 1-3 years of streaming-original shows.  And I kind of miss the sit with friends to watch a couple fave drama/sci-fi shows together. It was a nice social-schedule perk. I had my group for watching ST:NG most of the time, for example. Not that one did that for every show, but before renting stuff/streaming, it was something besides going to a theater movie every week.  Of course, these days I have no friends (some deaths, most moved, I moved etc) so I guess it works out for me.    I would wildly guess that's one reason why "tv/movie reaction" videos on YT took off like they did - not only easy for the channel to make (ahem) but they speak to nostalgia for that kind of shared social interaction/reaction event.

 Other:
---Heroes, another show I saw the first 2-3 episodes, or half a season I forget (liked those well enough) but I didn't bother keeping up with week to week airing. I was too busy life-ing at the time, as sometimes happens. I mostly remember it introducing me to and the reason I initially thought Zachary Quinto would be a decent Spock.

---Wanting core characters always existing is one reason endless-season 1-hr drama shows become insanely plot-armorfied/power creep and suspense completely leaves the table. Even if a "main/important secondary" chr. is offed fairly early/occasionally, they can't do that forever or there is no consistency for audiences or advertisers to adore/hang upon. So a core few will never die (until the series closes).

Edited January 13 by LadyCrimson

[Zoraptor]

2 hours ago, Lexx said:

I just wanted that asian guy to become an actual super hero. I can't remember deeper details of the show, but I think that never actually happened. Instead it just went on and on and on. Sad.

Hiro was one of those people who permanently had issues due to time travel being ridiculously over powered, if he could control it properly. So for most of the time he couldn't.

Ando (his non powered sidekick) got super powers at some point with some sort of shenanigans like time travel [during season 3 according to their wiki, like a +1 buff to others rather than a 'proper' power though]. I'd well and truly stopped paying proper attention by then though.

[LadyCrimson]

Oh look, I found a video that agrees with me, hence I liked it.
He goes into possible industry reasons/decisions for the trend but for me as a watcher:
---2-3 years per 6-10 eps season = me unable to remember the 1st season and practically having to rewatch that first, making me not want to watch to begin with
---once the pattern is known, it's a self-fulling prophecy: ppl going "I'll wait for more seasons before watching/investing time" can = cancelled show because 1st season isn't watched enough in the first month or two
---Netflix is definitely the biggest offender but it's a streaming-series trend overall

 

Edited January 14 by LadyCrimson

[rjshae]

Well the finale of Skeleton Crew almost made it a decent series, but it sounds like the ratings were so poor it may not have a second season. Hopefully we get the second season of Andor soon.

[majestic]

I watched a clip of someone making fun of the opening of Skeleton Crew and noped out. Not surprised if no one watched that, even if it became good afterwards.

[Amentep]

On 1/10/2025 at 12:48 PM, Hurlshort said:

I don't know how anyone watched Lost and expected anything other than a buddhist afterlife type ending. I thought it was good. It isn't a show I would re-watch, but it was an interesting time in TV history.

The problem was not the afterlife (mainly, the producers said repeatedly the characters weren't dead so an ending where the characters were dead was an issue) but that they teased answers to questions but never delivered. Saying the important thing was the character arcs in a show that most people were watching to understand the mysteries they established was goingto split fans who were less invested in Sawyer/Kate etc.

[majestic]

1 hour ago, Amentep said:

The problem was not the afterlife (mainly, the producers said repeatedly the characters weren't dead so an ending where the characters were dead was an issue) but that they teased answers to questions but never delivered. Saying the important thing was the character arcs in a show that most people were watching to understand the mysteries they established was goingto split fans who were less invested in Sawyer/Kate etc.

Ey, they did deliver answers to the mysteries. Most of them, anyway. It's just that many of the answers fell within two very broad categories: "the island sits atop a vast quantity of negatively charged exotic matter*" and "doesn't matter, because it was a lie and/or a game by Ben/Charles/Jacob/Man in Black", neither of which were very, say, satisfying - and like @bugarup already said, season six changed Lost from a mystery show with sci-fi elements to a fantasy show with mystery elements. 

Now, of course, the obvious answer to that problem is to simply view the series as a (quasi-)spirtual backdrop for the characters to work through their personal issues. Seen as such, it is perfectly fine for the events of the series being mostly predicated on a conflict between Jacob, the protector of the negative space wedgie (source of all life, source of all light, source of souls, Guf, whatever else you may want to call the island, as this depends very much on your own world view and interpretation), and his personal mistake: creating his opposite in a fit of rage, i.e. The Man in Black, his twin brother, as Jacob shares this hell of his own making with all the candidates he brings to the island. Through that lens, the afterlife portion also makes sense, i.e. solving your conflicts and facing your inner demons in life gave them peace in the afterlife, and allowed them to move on (contrast with those who did not move on, like Michael and Ben). For Jack, the obvious candidate, and Jacob, the current guardian, this journey ends logically where it had to: their death. Jack because his saviour complex allowed for no other resolution and to give him a messianic send-off and for Jacob, well, because his existence was intrinsically tied to the darkness he introduced to the island.

Which is all fine, really, but not the reason fans followed the series in the first place. It works, but is largely an after-the-fact restrospective of what happened, and was most certainly not the intention all along, as it relies on using the events of the penultimate episode of Lost to re-examine and reinterpret events in the past six seasons. Insofar, the finale of season six was simply the finale of season six, not a finale to the series.

This is pretty much what I mean with the series having a rather close kinship to Neon Genesis Evangelion, with Neon Genesis Evangelion abandoning much of its premise almost two thirds into its run, moving towards a more psychological exploration in its last ten episodes, culminating in one of the most divisive series finales of all time. There are, of course, differences, and NGE's original ending simply abandons** the (original) narrative entirely, while Lost actively resolves it in one of the most dissastifying ways imaginable - only rather recently topped by Game of Thrones, or the ending of Mass Effect 3 if we allow the point to expand beyond TV shows. NGE's ending also worked better, so I suppose this is just one more point for the idea that mysteries are better left unsolved if one cannot come up with a satisfying answer. Also fairly unique in getting an after-the-fact additional ending in form of an animated film that actually manages to give satisfying answers, after a fashion.

Lost is a special case as both splits of the fandom are pretty much right. The ending is both thematically satisfying and one of the most disappointing endings in the history of TV and very much deserves the negative response and criticism it gets, and then some, at the same time. I suppose I got lucky, I watched Lost a long while after the series wrapped (by way of a blu-ray boxed set), so I could binge the series, the talk of it having a terrible ending already tempered my expectations, and I was all too aware of Jar Jar Abram's and Damon Lindelof's inability to follow through with interesting premises (*cough* Alias *cough*).

This is what makes the Mass Effect 3 ending worse for me. When I played Mass Effect 3, I was also aware of the controversy surrounding its ending. Unlike Lost's ending, it still managed to disappoint me.

*Otherwise known as The Island is Magic.

**Relatively speaking, I mean, half of the ending wasn't even animated properly due to running out of time and the dire straits the production of Neon Genesis Evangelion was in at the time, mostly due to shifting the series focus close to the end of the run because Anno was unhappy with how the series was perceived. Gotta respect the man's ability to troll his audienec though. That it actually works as thematic ending to the series is a minor miracle.