The All Things Political Topic - A conservative is someone who makes no changes and consults his grandmother when in doubt

[Zoraptor]

I'd say White Man's Burden Imperialism is fundamentally pretty racist, and that was Churchill to a T. Definitely a Mileage May Vary situation though.

(I mean, he certainly didn't hate people for their race the same way, say, Hitler did. But to use one of those quotes, Churchill may have believed in equal rights for civilised people- whatever their colour- but he also believed that almost all non white people were not civilised and required guidance from whitey to become so...)

 

[BruceVC]

5 hours ago, Hurlshort said:

Pretty good mix of information, but it smacks as much of rampant nationalism and imperialism as it does white supremacy. Not that those things make it any better, but they definitely fit with the times. It's also a pretty mixed bag, with this quote: 

Contrasted by this: 

His comments on India are even more contradictory. So it's safe to say Churchill was a pretty complex case, rather than an outright bigot or racist. I'd also say it is safe to say that when it came to the politics of race, he tended to stick with what was politically expedient over any specific morality. He's not exactly a paragon of virtue, but I don't get the impression that he is seen that way by the British. 

That being said, I'll stick by my stance on politicians and statues.

This is the most balanced view on Churchill  I have read in this debate and I agree with most  of   it

Its much more   informed and nuanced than listening to selective outrage around "he is a racist, we  MUST take his statue down "  or other similar comments 

@Zoraptor and yes Stalin does get positive recognition for helping to defeat the Nazi and the role  the USSR played. Thats why they celebrate Victory Day

 

 

[BruceVC]

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231205-us-house-to-pass-another-resolution-conflating-anti-zionism-with-anti-semitism/

So US Congress has passed a resolution that says anti-Zionism is the  same as anti-Semitism 

I understand the sentiment because anti-semitism in on the rise in the US since 7 October but I think its misplaced because anti-Zionism is  normally a political stance and there  are  many American  Jews themselves who are not Zionists  and believe  in a 2 state solution and  they do criticize Netanyahu's policies 

But opposing Zionism doesnt mean you  necessarily anti-semitic because many of the more hardline believers in Zionism dont believe the Palestinians should have any state 

 

 

 

 

[Gorth]

1 hour ago, BruceVC said:

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20231205-us-house-to-pass-another-resolution-conflating-anti-zionism-with-anti-semitism/

So US Congress has passed a resolution that says anti-Zionism is the  same as anti-Semitism 

I understand the sentiment because anti-semitism in on the rise in the US since 7 October but I think its misplaced because anti-Zionism is  normally a political stance and there  are  many American  Jews themselves who are not Zionists  and believe  in a 2 state solution and  they do criticize Netanyahu's policies 

But opposing Zionism doesnt mean you  necessarily anti-semitic because many of the more hardline believers in Zionism dont believe the Palestinians should have any state

True. I remember having the same argument on this forum many years ago, because I condemned Zionism for being as bad as any other nationalist sentiment based on a divinely given right to exterminate your neighbours and seize their land for the glory of a greater homeland (substitute homeland with any suitable country that believes in the rhetoric of being destined to rule the world). Has nothing to do with ethnicity and everything to do with populist movements.

[xzar_monty]

On 12/6/2023 at 2:45 AM, Zoraptor said:

(I mean, he certainly didn't hate people for their race the same way, say, Hitler did. But to use one of those quotes, Churchill may have believed in equal rights for civilised people- whatever their colour- but he also believed that almost all non white people were not civilised and required guidance from whitey to become so...)

It would be extremely interesting to read a timeline-based book on this question, one that went through the ages, explored the spirit of various eras and brought up numerous examples of people who were out of step with their time in either way.

To make this more concrete: I wonder to what extent Churchill expressed the spirit of his time and place to a T, as you put it. I really don't know, but I would want to. Of course none of this is to excuse anything.

I am currently engaged in a work project concerning the history of the mafia, and one particularly salient point is that once slavery was abolished in the US, there was suddenly a dire need for very cheap labor in the South. Enter Sicilian immigrants, in great numbers. Very soon after that, Enter The Mafia. It was also fascinating and somewhat horrifying to note that after a particularly barbarous lynching in New Orleans, future president Roosevelt pointed out in his correspondence that he thought the lynchings were a good thing. The headlines from the major American newspapers truly make for some terrible reading, and that's not because of bad grammar or hideous puns.

[HoonDing]

Zionism is anti-semitism because it wants to eradicate all Arabs.

[Bartimaeus]

What announcing retirement does to a guy.

[Gromnir]

Trump says he’s not testifying in his civil fraud trial Monday

*gasp* <-- feigned surprise

can either read the link, or instead just appreciate werner herzog's best evar filmed scene.

 

aside, one reason the court gave for maintaining the gag order in trump's fed jan 6 case is 'cause the appelate judges observed the trial were assured gonna be complete before the election, so there were no need to delay actions until after the election. converse, judge aileen canon is delaying the most straightforward and simple procedural matters in the mar-a-lago docs case.
HA! Good Fun!

[Hurlshort]

I'm curious how Nikki Haley will do if she manages to secure the nomination. That might be the hard part. My instinct is she could beat Biden comfortably if she gets past the crazies in her party. She likely brings back the more moderate republicans that refuse to vote for Trump.  

[Keyrock]

30 minutes ago, Hurlshort said:

I'm curious how Nikki Haley will do if she manages to secure the nomination. That might be the hard part. My instinct is she could beat Biden comfortably if she gets past the crazies in her party. She likely brings back the more moderate republicans that refuse to vote for Trump.  

If nothing else, she'll get a lot of donor money. There are a lot of those in the donor class that very much want to bring back the Bush/Cheney neocon republican party and Nikki Haley seems to be exactly that, heck she might be even more of a war hawk than Cheney, if that's even possible. I suspect there's a significant rift between who the donors like and who the general people like, but I guess we'll see. For me, I can't get past her foreign policy and highly aggressive neocon rhetoric. Everything else is a non-starter because I detest neocons so much and find her rhetoric absolutely stomach-turning.

[BruceVC]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-67505674

Interesting story in the US and another example of unnecessary outrage around culture wars garbage  and how some people dont understand race or they have their own definition of racial identity 

In SA one of our  races is coloured people who have their own  identity and history and they mostly descendants of the Khoisan 

A really talented R&B singer called Tyla is breaking into the US market and she openly and proudly identifies as coloured 

But she was  heavily criticized by some black people in the US because the word "  coloured " is offensive and she is expected to say she in black...but shes not black, she is coloured 

In SA  these  are  separate races but she is not mixed race either like Trevor Noah who calls himself black in the US but he is not black in SA. Black people in Africa are Bantu tribes 

How to avoid  this , American  activists mustn't assume the world is defined by there  definition of race. Its not, it much more complicated than that 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by BruceVC

[Gromnir]

22 hours ago, Hurlshort said:

I'm curious how Nikki Haley will do if she manages to secure the nomination. That might be the hard part. My instinct is she could beat Biden comfortably if she gets past the crazies in her party. She likely brings back the more moderate republicans that refuse to vote for Trump.  

any moderate republican candidate could beat biden w/o a sweat. the problem for haley and anybody else is that no republican will win w/o approval from the trump base-- republicans made a proverbial deal with the devil when they embraced trump. 'course it didn't start with trump.

for years the gop was advancing the big tent metaphor while sarah palin, rush limbaugh and steve bannon were simultaneous appealing to the not-so-fringe elements o' the gop. working class white voters, many o' whom voted for obama, were facing decades long economic hardship and simultaneous they were being told they were benefiting from white privilege. in retrospect is not surprising marginalized and disaffected white voters chose to glomp onto an elmer gantry figure such as trump. those voters were looking for a savior from evil as 'posed to a President. 

elements o' the gop identified a group o' voters who needed a push to radicalize 'em, and that is exact what they did. gop big tent went in the dumpster and instead we see a platform o' outrage and grievance.  republicans know they can't win without the radicalized base they took into the fold.

is only a few years past, but seeming improbable, key is now full on supporting a candidate who promotes dozens o' demonstrable wrong conspiracy theories about covid, masks, the cia, and tainted water supplies turning your kids trans. 

doesn't matter how much proof there is o' guys such as trump and rfk jr being wrong 'bout covid deaths or cancer causing windmills, 'cause while the corrupt government and fake news media attempts to distract you with every little detail those guys get wrong, those complicit institutional supporters are ignoring the bigger and important truth that guard dog's They are indeed out to get you and is only individuals not part o' the establishment who have any chance whatsoever o' fixing the corrupt system... or some other nonsense.

being angry isn't a crime and in 2023 there is more than a little justification for working class whites to be angry, yes? being told that systematic problems which has existed for a long time can't be fixed simple and easy ain't a winning strategy for getting the angry vote. 

political version o' flat earthers is no longer fringe, and is not limited to the right (if you want, we can post video from a recent oakland city council meeting where the lefty kooks were calling for oakland to condemn israel [serious] and many such individuals were insisting october 7 were a israeli false flag operation as justification for their outrage,) am not personal understanding why anybody would listen to trump, rfk jr trump and other sources o' endemic misinformation, but for some inexplicable reason, the anti-authority nutters seem to need just a little push from a recognizable authority figure to full embrace their anger and crazy. ironic.

haley could easily beat biden... just so long as she has trump base support. it might be a smart movie for trump if he bargained support o' haley in exchange for a prospective pardon, but am barely able to imagine trump doing smart. also, pardons wouldn't get trump out o' his georgia or civil problems.

HA! Good Fun!

[Gromnir]

in case is not clear, "sibley" is rudy's lawyer.

and this is where we are today with some significant % o' the population having voluntarily smashed through the looking glass where they is inhabiting a fantasy world where whatever they dislike is explained by cartoony dark forces. those who voluntary abandon reason and rational, often for transparent mercenary motivations, when called to account by voters, neighbors or even the legal system is somehow deserving forgiveness 'cause whatever wrong they did were 'cause they is true believers in the fantasy they created for themselves.

and no, we did not expect such easy flat earther segue material so soon after our most recent post.

HA! Good Fun!

[Gorth]

US lawyers are world famous for earning a lot of money... whether they do or not, they are famous for it

I doubt even Guiliani can walk down to his local ATM and do a $148m withdrawal for "new expenses"?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67723332

Tl;dr; found guilty and ordered to payup

 

"Rudy Giuliani, a longtime associate of former President Donald Trump, has been ordered to pay more than $148m (£116m) to two women over false claims they tampered with votes in 2020."

 

[Gorth]

Honest Government Ads take on the upcoming UK elections (with government like this, who needs terrorists?)

 

 

[Gromnir]

On 12/15/2023 at 6:44 PM, Gorth said:

US lawyers are world famous for earning a lot of money... whether they do or not, they are famous for it

 

 

we didn't retire at fifty 'cause o' the huge pile o' money we made as a fist amendment lawyer. 

for anybody who asks us 'bout becoming an attorney, we always says that if you are getting into law for the money, then you are making a mistake. is far easier ways to make dough in the US. other than the true believers, we has met extreme few attorneys who is happy with their choice o' profession.

aside, am not sure how the $148 mil stands. half o' that is punitive damages, and punitive damages is possible not what you imagine. magnitude o' the wrong does not increase punitive damages. wealth o' the defendant is what is important when calculating punitive.  even in jurisdictions where there is no limits on punitive damages, the jury is s'posed determining a number which will convince the defendant to not repeat the bad behavior which resulted in the reward.

example: your neighbor prunes your tree in your yard 'cause the foliage is blocking his view... and is not the firstest time he has pruned your trees.

cops, court and hoa has all warned your neighbor about trespassing on your property to prune your tree, but he keeps repeating the bad behavior. punitive damages would be appropriate in such a case and would be calculated to bring about a change in the defendant's behavior. if your neighbor is a multi-billionaire, chances are a monetary chastisement would need be greater to alter behavior than if the defendant is a school teacher with three kids who is underwater on his home's mortgage. is not magnitude o' the wrong which is important in calculating punitives but rather the depth o' defendant pockets. makes sense, no?

rudy refused to provide documentation about his wealth, so the jury used their imaginations to come up with a meaningful number for punitive damages. rudy keeps doing the same bad behavior (defamation/libel) which got him in trouble in the first place, so am understanding why a jury would choose a big number-- shock and awe might be needed to force rudy to stop doin bad. even so, am doubting the punitive number holds. understatement: we would be surprised to discover rudy has +$70 million squirreled away. 

compensatory damages o' +$70 million also feels a bit much. how much money would it take to make the plaintiffs whole? compensatory damages is NOT about punishing a defendant. doug, the world's most unpleasant bastard, pushes pauline, a retired septuagenarian who donates her free time and what little disposable income she has to the local shelter for victims o' domestic abuse, down a flight o' stairs. doug meant for pauline to be severe injured, but miraculously, pauline only suffered a sprained pinky finger. compensatory damages awarded to pauline should make her whole. so, how much? whatever were her hospital costs? is not gonna be a big number.

pain and suffering is a real thing, and there is no hard and fast rules to determine how much additional compensatory money is required to make a plaintiff whole when considering pain. no amount of money could ever make the pain and anguish of the plaintiffs disappear is a bad argument to make when seeking compensatory damages. am not sure how the jury decided on a number, but +$70 million for compensatory damages, even with a fuzzy pain and suffering calculation, feels disproportionate. again, compensatory damages is not meant to make rudy suffer for the wrong he did but is calculated to make the plaintiffs whole. is being able to afford a winter home in aspen gonna make the plaintiffs whole? and again, for compensatory it don't matter if rudy is bad or rich.

imagine all the facts o' the case is the same, but the defendant is some crackpot conspiracy theory junkie living in his mom's basement along with her eleven cats. basement dweller's income is whatever he makes part-time at the local seven-eleven. basement dweller's blog posts about the plaintiffs just happened to go viral and got similar coverage as did rudy's nonsense. would a jury have awarded +$70 million in compensatory damages if basement dweller was the defendant? if not, why not?

excuse our typical lack o' brevity.

HA! Good Fun!

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Gromnir

[Gromnir]

relevant to our most recent post explaining punitive damages:

cliff's notes explanation--

trump bragging about how much he is worth in testimony during the ny fraud case did not go unnoticed by the attorney for e jean carrol who is going to be asking for punitive damages in an upcoming second defamation case in which trump is already legal determined to be liable and the only thing being considered by the court is damages. as we mentioned above, the magnitude o' punitive damages awards is dependent on the wealth o' the defendant as 'posed to the scope o' the harm suffered by the plaintiff. the more trump proclaims he is sooper wealthy, the greater should be the resulting punitive damages award.

another aside, rudy declaring bankruptcy is not gonna impact the recent $148 million defamation judgement. as a general rule, intentional torts cannot be discharged by bankruptcy. the divide between intentional v. negligent behavior is sometimes difficult to discern, but in the rudy scenario there is no legal grey area-- punitive damages is only awarded in the case o' intentional/knowing wrongdoing. bankruptcy for rudy is only gonna be able to shield his assets from other creditors whom we assume is multitudinous.

HA! Good Fun!

[Gromnir]

biden is an ez target and he deserves more than a little ridicule concerning his cognitive fitness particular when necessary predicting the deleterious impact o' another four years in a high stress job.

but...

Joe Rogan knocks Biden over Trump’s claim of airports during Revolutionary War | The Hill

clip

if rogan pivoted and said, "see, neither one o' these clowns deserves to be President," we might chuckle at the deflection, but we would nevertheless agree. instead, rogan makes himself an example o' the exact harm he is accusing the media o' perpetrating.... doesn't even recognize the self-owning irony.

btw, scotus not taking up the Presidential immunity question at this time makes sense in part 'cause 'cause there is no novel question o' law-- nixon and clinton cases has already answered all immediate relevant issues regarding the scope o' Presidential immunity. nothing to see.

however,  if the Court grants cert after the dc appellate near inevitable decides in favour o' special counsel smith, then am gonna wonder if the fix is indeed in.  

HA! Good Fun!

 

[uuuhhii]

so argentina is over

this is very bad news for food price

[Gromnir]

Haley seeks to clarify Civil War comments as backlash mounts

“I mean, I think the cause of the Civil War was basically how government was going to run. The freedoms and what people could and couldn’t do,” Haley had said Wednesday in a visit to Berlin — the first of five events in the Granite State as she attempts to close the gap with Republican front-runner Donald Trump ahead of next month’s primary.

The former South Carolina governor then asked the voter who had asked her about the Civil War what he thought the cause was, to which the voter responded, “I’m not running for president.”

“I think it always comes down to the role of government and what the rights of the people are,” Haley added. “I will always stand by the fact that I think government was intended to secure the rights and freedoms of the people. It was never meant to be all things to all people,” she added.

The voter criticized her for not mentioning slavery in her answer. “In the year 2023, it’s astonishing to me that you answer that question without mentioning the word slavery,” the voter said.

“What do you want me to say about slavery?” Haley asked.

...

now this may come as some surprise to non-americans, but each US state teaches history different in their schools, and each school district has a fair amount o' leeway to implement state standards with individual teachers obvious getting additional input. in many southern states, the way the civil war gets taught is fundamental affected by the daughters of the confederacy's efforts at revisionism-- southern children frequent learn that the war between the states was ultimately about state's rights and slavery was a tangential concern. 

worth a read

additional link

"the revisionist campaign of Confederate sympathizers gained traction. By 1940, the “Lost Cause” narrative dominated textbooks nationwide; as Matt Ford observed this August in an article for The Atlantic, textbooks used when today’s American leaders were in school “downplayed the role of slavery” in the Civil War.

"In 1946, the NAACP embarked on its own nationwide textbook campaign, which began in New York to fight against historical inaccuracies and for the inclusion of black history in the school curriculum. It wasn’t until the 1970s that the textbook industry began making significant changes, but the myth of the Lost Cause nevertheless continues to hold sway, as the Roper Center of Public Opinion demonstrated in 2011, on the 150th anniversary of the start of the Civil War. At that point, a significant portion of Americans — more than half, according to some polls — believed that the main cause of the war was states’ rights."

haley said something stoopid, but as a former southern governor, it ain't surprising she promotes a pernicious view o' history.

aside, the following is a somewhat amusing, but well-researched video on the state's rights as the cause o' the civil war  stoopid which persists to this day.

Spoiler

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

HA! Good Fun!

Edited December 28, 2023 by Gromnir

[Azdeus]

23 hours ago, Gromnir said:

  Reveal hidden contents

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

HA! Good Fun!

Not gonna lie, I got stuck watching the entire playlist with episodes, I'm not particularly interested in the topic but the comment reads are absolutely hilarious

[Gromnir]

On 12/29/2023 at 8:15 AM, Azdeus said:

Not gonna lie, I got stuck watching the entire playlist with episodes, I'm not particularly interested in the topic but the comment reads are absolutely hilarious

yeah, many o' the comments is so genuine and absurd that it is tough not to laugh.

...

am recalling many/most europeans cannot see the comments section o' fox news stories-- simultaneous curse and blessing. we do regular force ourself to read fox stories related to major issues o' the day not so much for the content which includes predictable spin but rather for the comments from fox's online audience. taken individual, the anger and ignorance o' a respondent's comment to a fox authored january 6, immigration or culture war story is amusing. the problem is those comments at fox come in the hundreds and thousands, and is good/terrible to recall that fox remains the most popular news source in the US. 

is easy to dismiss the lone nutter or doofus as exceptional. fox news reminds us the crackpots and wingnuts is legion.

and again, willful ignorance and outrage is not limited to those who wear maga hats. is numerous issues which bring out the fear and loathing o' the lib crowd, but am admitting fox has successful galvanized their audience and calcified its worst tendencies beyond what we thought were possible even fifteen years past. 

HA! Good Fun!

[BruceVC]

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/israel-supreme-court-strikes-down-governments-controversial-legal-reform-4782728 

The SC in Israel has striked down Netanyahu's attempt to ignore what SC says and make him and other politicians less accountable

Good news for Israel's Democracy and bad new for Netanyahu  and his right-wing coalitions  attempts for legal  overhaul  

[uuuhhii]

so us and uk are sinking ship to protect their little middle eastern colony

pathetic

Edited January 1 by uuuhhii

[Sarex]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-67845056