The All Things Political Topic - We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office

[BruceVC]

1 hour ago, ShadySands said:

Yeah, I dunno about Sinema either and argued with Bruce or somebody who applauded her a while back. Best as I can figure she's angling for her post-DC gig because she's going to lose her primary and/or she's just on a power trip with no thought of tomorrow.

Yes we did discuss Sinema but the reality is I am much more supportive of Manchin, I have listened to him on numerous occasions and he always comes across as reasonable and sincere about why he votes the way he does and why he supports or opposes certain bills

To summarize his views, he doesnt get involved in culture wars or populist rhetoric. He respects Biden but also considers most of the Republicans his political  friends, different to real friends,  and not enemies in the sense he acknowledges the future of the US is about bipartisan agreements and both the left and right compromising on certain policies 

Here is a link that is an audio of the latest interview Jake Trapper on CNN had with Manchin, just listen to 7 minutes from minute 2 to understand why I like Manchin 

https://edition.cnn.com/audio/podcasts/state-of-the-union-with-jake-tapper/episodes/64e89250-f490-44de-88b2-aee3010ca9ee

 

 

 

[Gromnir]

18 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

It just doesn't make sense to me to think of it from that way given the political reality of that particular seat being the darkest shade of red possible.

y'know, that sorta reasonable behaviour is so last century. nobody is gonna take you seriously in 2022 unless you express your outrage at them. being practical and recognizing the need for compromise might as well make you one o' them. curiously, is ok if your fury and indignation at the designated injustice or villain dujour is limited to frequent social media posts. voting and grassroots activism or volunteering is swell and all, but nowadays is all 'bout getting followers and accumulating likes from witty tweets. 

HA! Good Fun!

ps as he is from wv, am getting why manchin defends the fossil fuel industry and coal in particular. am admitted having a bit more difficulty understanding why he seems to hate kids, particularly poor kids. 

[Bartimaeus]

24 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

y'know, that sorta reasonable behaviour is so last century. nobody is gonna take you seriously in 2022 unless you express your outrage at them. being practical and recognizing the need for compromise might as well make you one o' them. curiously, is ok if your fury and indignation at the designated injustice or villain dujour is limited to frequent social media posts. voting and grassroots activism or volunteering is swell and all, but nowadays is all 'bout getting followers and accumulating likes from witty tweets. 

HA! Good Fun!

ps as he is from wv, am getting why manchin defends the fossil fuel industry and coal in particular. am admitted having a bit more difficulty understanding why he seems to hate kids, particularly poor kids. 

Yeah, don't get me wrong, there are reasons to not like him or what he's doing on a personal level...but on a political level, it's really difficult or me to muster up much fury about any Democrat holding what should be a 30 point or worse blow-out seat for Republicans, particularly when it's pretty widely accepted that literally nobody else could replace him...heck, if you could somehow get conservative Democrats in seats like that for other deep red states, the party would be absolute fools not to - just being able to control the majority party via that 50/51 seat caucus is very powerful for making sure what has literally already happened with the Supreme Court doesn't transpire. Unfortunately, voters have overwhelmingly stopped caring about the quality or positions of individual candidates in favor of pure party politics - more and more voters inextricably tie who they vote for to their political identities instead of evaluating who and what the candidates are....

Edited August 4, 2022 by Bartimaeus

[Malcador]

Hearing missiles landed in Japanese waters had me worried for a bit, but turns out it's in the EEZ off Okinawa. 

[Zoraptor]

99% of the time

Headline: in country's territorial waters --> Exclusive Economic Zone of 200 nmi; not Territorial Waters  of 12nmi

Headline: in country's airspace --> in their self declared Air Defence Identification Zone, air traffic control area or similar, of arbitrary size; not within actual Airspace of 12nmi

Helps keep the blood pressure nice and low.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

2 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

It just doesn't make sense to me to think of it from that way given the political reality of that particular seat being the darkest shade of red possible.

It's an indictment of that political reality, we only have 10 years to prevent the worse case scenario for climate change and even insufficient measures are being blocked by a guy who represents less than 1% of the US population*. In the US we can always vote harder and get some more senators elected, install supreme court justices before or after some of the older ghouls get a ticket to hell, overcome gerrymandering/voter suppression, even fight off christian fascists in the event of a hostile takeover. What we can't do is undo temperature changes that we are barreling toward at full speed right now, once we cross that bridge it's over.

So yeah, Manchin is preferable to the McFascist that would replace him and isn't as bad as my own senators Cornyn the Klansman or Fled Cruz, but he's still setting fire to the world and the political reality that enables this is ****ed.

*For reference, my city has a larger population than West Virgina.

[Darkpriest]

1 hour ago, Zoraptor said:

99% of the time

Headline: in country's territorial waters --> Exclusive Economic Zone of 200 nmi; not Territorial Waters  of 12nmi

Headline: in country's airspace --> in their self declared Air Defence Identification Zone, air traffic control area or similar, of arbitrary size; not within actual Airspace of 12nmi

Helps keep the blood pressure nice and low.

Seems some of th missiles flew over the Island? 

Again, as US admin openly ignores other superpower's 'red line' for domestic publicity and after the Russia experience I would not rule out the Taiwan invasion or at least a full effective blockade and isolation, as China sees Taiwan and its territorial waters as its own. 

The information flow from the politbureau and news mouthpieces like Global Times - it seems all options are in place. 

-----------

Taiwan's Defense Ministry described the latest PLA actions as essentially a "maritime and aerial blockade." Meanwhile, Fox News' Lucas Tomlinson observes that "48 Chinese military aircraft, mostly fighter jets, have now buzzed Taiwan over the past two days." A little less than half of these were reported by Taiwan's defense ministry as having crossed the "median line" - which it should be recalled Chinese state mouthpiece Global Times said has now ceased to exist. 

[Zoraptor]

Japan said some missiles flew over Taiwan, don't think Taiwan has said it though. So far as I've seen they just said that missiles landed to their SW and NE, assuming shortest route that would not be over Taiwan proper. The wording from Japan also seemed a bit weaselly (ie was it over Formosa Is./ Taiwan proper, or over some minor islet, held by Taiwan? There's a pretty significant difference in terms of escalation).

I doubt we'll get an invasion of Taiwan anytime soon since China is risk averse*. A bit of face loss for Xi which most of his people won't hear about ultimately doesn't matter. OTOH he does probably want reunification as his ultimate legacy, and control of all that lovely tech manufacturing. But the one thing that can threaten him is an internal revolt, and that risk goes up a lot with economic turmoil and that would inevitably follow any military reunification.

Still, pretty stupid move from Pelosi in terms of external politics and pretty much the definition of virtue signalling. Made no practical difference but just made people feel good about themselves for a bit. And all when they want China's support (or at least to avoid their antagonism) when it comes to Russia trying to break bits off another country.

*but not immune from ill considered decisions- see them trying to get support from India, having spent much of the past few years provoking them (with predictable and actually quite painful economic backlash) and while financing infrastructure in Pakistani Kashmir. Right or wrong on Kashmir, India sees that much the same way as China sees the US financing Taiwan, ie provocative, at best.

[Gromnir]

2 hours ago, Bartimaeus said:

Yeah, don't get me wrong, there are reasons to not like him or what he's doing on a personal level...but on a political level, it's really difficult or me to muster up much fury about any Democrat holding what should be a 30 point or worse blow-out seat for Republicans, particularly when it's pretty widely accepted that literally nobody else could replace him...heck, if you could somehow get conservative Democrats in seats like that for other deep red states, the party would be absolute fools not to - just being able to control the majority party via that 50/51 seat caucus is very powerful for making sure what has literally already happened with the Supreme Court doesn't transpire. Unfortunately, voters have overwhelmingly stopped caring about the quality or positions of individual candidates in favor of pure party politics - more and more voters inextricably tie who they vote for to their political identities instead of evaluating who and what the candidates are....

you don't need work hard to convince Gromnir that manchin isn't the real problem. heck, we remain a conservative in many respects even if we refuse to vote for any republican who hasn't distanced themselves from the new gop platform... whatever that is. am not a fan o' manchin 'cause he pretends as if fossil fuel lobbyists ain't holding his leash and 'cause he has curious red lines for legislation which involve making the lives o' kids better, but just as we don't blame the filibuster rules for failed democrat legislative efforts, we don't blame manchin for being the same guy today he has been for a long time. 

we said after the 2020 elections that many democrats were missing the most important lessons o' the then recent local and national contests. trump lost but there were a whole lotta republicans winning where such wins were unexpected and democrats lost ground with various segments o' minority men they could not afford to lose. since 2020, even in places such as nyc, progressives have been taking a beating and in virginia, a state moving decided purple, glenn youngkinn won with trumpy maga appeals and crt myths. many virginian conservative women who could not stomach the thought of another four years o' trump were nevertheless okie dokie with youngkinn's brand o' maga appeals. add historic inflation which were mostly not biden's fault, but the President in power has near always shouldered the blame for previous stoopid. etc. how many signs were needed, eh? expecting paradigm shifts given the current reality were utter divorced from reality.

taking back the senate were huge for democrats not the least 'cause biden has been on a tear with fed judge replacements, eclipsing even trump and mcconnell's efforts during the first two years o' the previous admin. nevertheless, is baffling the kinda fantasyland expectations voiced by many liberals given the razor thin majority democrats enjoyed and the reality o' elections 'cross the country post 2020. 

trump with his fearmongering, portraying the democrat threat as an existential crisis and using petty and demeaning language to describe political foes as irredeemable enemies, represents a serious threat to the Constitution. is disappointing to see and hear same trumpy nonsense from liberals on this board and elsewhere, eh?

however, to make perfect clear, am not suggesting a false equivalency 'tween maga extremists (seeing orban feted by the rnc at cpac, is increasing arguable those extremists is mainstream) and those youngish firebrand liberals who can't even manage better than 50% voting rates. as loopy as is a few liberals, and as much as we continue to criticize the abject stoopid which is antifa and the like, there is no organized movement on the left to overthrow democracy or to mow down personal liberties... with the possible exception o' some empty rhetoric 'bout proposed firearms bans via executive order and the like. is not a, they are all bad scenario.

manchin ain't the problem for democrats, but even for a reagan era compassionate conservative/libertarian such as Gromnir, who admitted were one o' those firebrand liberals before we taught in europe for a few years and saw the alternatives firsthand, the senator from wv offends our delicate sensibilities. 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 4, 2022 by Gromnir

[Bartimaeus]

17 hours ago, KP From Another World said:

It's an indictment of that political reality, we only have 10 years to prevent the worse case scenario for climate change and even insufficient measures are being blocked by a guy who represents less than 1% of the US population*. In the US we can always vote harder and get some more senators elected, install supreme court justices before or after some of the older ghouls get a ticket to hell, overcome gerrymandering/voter suppression, even fight off christian fascists in the event of a hostile takeover. What we can't do is undo temperature changes that we are barreling toward at full speed right now, once we cross that bridge it's over.

So yeah, Manchin is preferable to the McFascist that would replace him and isn't as bad as my own senators Cornyn the Klansman or Fled Cruz, but he's still setting fire to the world and the political reality that enables this is ****ed.

*For reference, my city has a larger population than West Virgina.

If it's an issue of political reality vs. actual reality, of course I want actual reality to win out. I think that ship has long sailed, though. I wish I could say it was uniquely a human problem to in all likelihood doom ourselves, but really, it's probably (at least) all Earth-based life, a necessary fatal flaw in the very basic biological building blocks responsible for making life succeed in the first place: everything is programmed to endlessly consume and multiply beyond their limits in order to "win" natural selection, and it is too difficult for the vast majority of life to resist (or even be aware that it may be necessary to resist) that programming. It's just that our minutely greater modicum of intelligence allowed us to find more and more extreme ways of consuming that the rest of our animal kingdom couldn't; given another hundred million years to evolve, I'm sure some other newly sapient-level species would do more or less same thing that we appear to be doing. Now that's no reason to throw in the towel, but with the way these things work, it's probably just healthier for everyone to look at the Senate as if it were currently not Democratic-controlled - a 50-50 split is simply too tight, and at least two Democratic senators that we know of oppose eliminating (or even reforming?) the filibuster that would be necessary to make anything but token changes possible.

For myself, I mostly don't generally think too much about any of these social wedge issues, since I am largely unaffected. That doesn't mean that I lack empathy for people who are affected by them (particularly with regard to the specific states that they have the mis/fortune of living in) or that I would ignore those issues when evaluating whom I am voting for, just that my brain space is typically taken up by more pressing existential matters, such as, yes, the planet currently being on fire. So I get you from that perspective, I just...I guess it's pretty hopeless with how generally broken both our society and political system are, it feels pretty unfair to lump so much of the blame on one guy that shouldn't even rightly be a Democrat in the first place, who's more or less just fairly representing the constituents that inexplicably continue to put him there in the face of Senate elections not really working like that anymore.

15 hours ago, Gromnir said:

trump with his fearmongering, portraying the democrat threat as an existential crisis and using petty and demeaning language to describe political foes as irredeemable enemies, represents a serious threat to the Constitution. is disappointing to see and hear same trumpy nonsense from liberals on this board and elsewhere, eh?

Undoubtedly fuelled by many of the same base emotions, even if applied for totally different reasons. I'm certainly no exception: I've personally had some eminently dangerous feelings and thoughts (quite recently too), much worse than anything that anyone else has expressed in this thread, but I generally prefer to keep them to myself. They don't do anyone, least of all myself, any good.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Bartimaeus

[BruceVC]

6 hours ago, Darkpriest said:

and after the Russia experience

 

You think there are  Nazi and Nuke in Taiwan as well? It wouldnt surprise me, they tend to get around 

What about NATO, I heard Taiwan wants to join. China was never ever going to invade Taiwan but now because of Pelosi's visit they must invade. What other choice do they have, its provoked 101 

[Gorth]

36 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

 China was never ever going to invade Taiwan

This is the real world is calling... Bruce, please come back to the information stand, your parents are looking for you

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-46733174

Chinese President Xi Jinping has urged the people of Taiwan to accept it "must and will be" reunited with China.

In a speech marking 40 years since the start of improving ties, he reiterated Beijing's call for peaceful unification on a one-country-two-systems basis.

However, he also warned that China reserved the right to use force.

 

Say what you will about Xi, but losing face is something he will not allow, regardless of the cost (seems to be a cultural thing, your public "face" being more important than life itself)

[BruceVC]

4 minutes ago, Gorth said:

This is the real world is calling... Bruce, please come back to the information stand, your parents are looking for you

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-46733174

Chinese President Xi Jinping has urged the people of Taiwan to accept it "must and will be" reunited with China.

In a speech marking 40 years since the start of improving ties, he reiterated Beijing's call for peaceful unification on a one-country-two-systems basis.

However, he also warned that China reserved the right to use force.

 

Say what you will about Xi, but losing face is something he will not allow, regardless of the cost (seems to be a cultural thing, your public "face" being more important than life itself)

I know China wants to invade\re-unify  Taiwan , I was being sarcastic  Thats why this  Chinese outrage from Pelosi's visit and it " leading to a Chinese invasion " from some is just theater because China has been saying this for decades 

It will happen in the next 20 years but I dont think its worth the US\West  going to war over it or a massive economic trade war. I dont think its worth it, Ukraine is different because its about the destabilization of the EU and an indirect attack on Western ideology

Taiwan is not like that 

[Gorth]

10 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

I know China wants to invade\re-unify  Taiwan , I was being sarcastic  Thats why this  Chinese outrage from Pelosi's visit and it " leading to a Chinese invasion " from some is just theater because China has been saying this for decades 

It will happen in the next 20 years but I dont think its worth the US\West  going to war over it or a massive economic trade war. I dont think its worth it, Ukraine is different because its about the destabilization of the EU and an indirect attack on Western ideology

Taiwan is not like that 

Japan, South Korea and Australia might disagree with you though... about whether or not leaving an expansionist China alone is a good idea.

 

Edit: Not to mention those people who likes computers, if it happens before anyone else gets to step up chip manufacturing (Taiwan being a major producer)

https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2022/8/4/why-china-is-not-sanctioning-taiwans-crucial-tech-industry

Taiwan dominates the global industry for semiconductors, critical components used in everything from smartphones and medical devices to cars and fighter jets.For the most advanced semiconductors, Taiwan accounts for 92 percent of production, according to a report by Boston Consulting.

 

[BruceVC]

13 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Japan, South Korea and Australia might disagree with you though... about whether or not leaving an expansionist China alone is a good idea.

And as usual these  wont be the countries that can make the biggest and  most significant difference to war or trade war with China

Only the US can realistically challenge and change Chinas direction in war and regional hegemony . But its allies like Oz, SK and Japan will support the US 

But Gorthfuscious remember we wont to avoid wars\trade wars that destabilize the global economy unless absolutely necessary like an invasion of Oz

Can you imagine how all our economies would suffer in a real war between China and the US with most of the West, like the EU, supporting the US?

If you think the global inflation after the lockdowns was bad this would make that look like Mickey Mouse

 

Edited August 5, 2022 by BruceVC

[BruceVC]

15 minutes ago, Gorth said:

Japan, South Korea and Australia might disagree with you though... about whether or not leaving an expansionist China alone is a good idea.

 

Edit: Not to mention those people who likes computers, if it happens before anyone else gets to step up chip manufacturing (Taiwan being a major producer)

https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2022/8/4/why-china-is-not-sanctioning-taiwans-crucial-tech-industry

Taiwan dominates the global industry for semiconductors, critical components used in everything from smartphones and medical devices to cars and fighter jets.For the most advanced semiconductors, Taiwan accounts for 92 percent of production, according to a report by Boston Consulting.

 

Yes I do agree that Taiwan does contribute importantly   towards parts of the global economy like semiconductors 

[Lexx]

3 hours ago, Gorth said:

he reiterated Beijing's call for peaceful unification on a one-country-two-systems basis.

Like Hong Kong?

[Gfted1]

7 hours ago, Gorth said:

Taiwan dominates the global industry for semiconductors, critical components used in everything from smartphones and medical devices to cars and fighter jets.For the most advanced semiconductors, Taiwan accounts for 92 percent of production, according to a report by Boston Consulting.

They should rig them all to blow if China invades. Bwahahahaha. 

[Raithe]

I kind of feel that this should be in the funny things thread but still...

[Gorth]

I googled CPAC. I still don't know who, what or why it exists?

 

[Hurlshort]

12 minutes ago, Gorth said:

I googled CPAC. I still don't know who, what or why it exists?

 

It raises money for conservative candidates. 

[Bartimaeus]

Unannounced FBI raid of Trump's Mar-a-Lago was executed earlier today, though the exact intent of the raid has not yet been released.

(e): The retrieval of stolen classified documents from his time as president? Huh.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Bartimaeus

[Chairchucker]

My prediction: a great deal of very damning evidence, for a total of:

0 (zero) consequences

[BruceVC]

8 hours ago, Chairchucker said:

My prediction: a great deal of very damning evidence, for a total of:

0 (zero) consequences

Nah, the FBI wouldnt have gone through with the raid if there wasnt something that can be used to prosecute Trump otherwise its a waste of time

So it depends on if they found it, I think its something to do with the hundreds of classified  documents Trump  took from the WH after January 6 

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-took-classified-material-white-house-florida-national-archives-says-2022-02-18/

 

[Chairchucker]

3 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Nah, the FBI wouldnt have gone through with the raid if there wasnt something that can be used to prosecute Trump otherwise its a waste of time

So it depends on if they found it, I think its something to do with the hundreds of classified  documents Trump  took from the WH after January 6 

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-took-classified-material-white-house-florida-national-archives-says-2022-02-18/

 

I will not believe in the idea of A Consequence for Trump until he is physically inside a jail cell.

 

That said