The All Things Political Topic - We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office

[Malcador]

42 minutes ago, Amentep said:

Slman Rushdie attacked on stage.  Its being reported in some places he was stabbed in the neck. 

Interesting timing.

Edited August 12, 2022 by Malcador

[HoonDing]

Days without jewish tricks.jpeg

[Malcador]

https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/3598732-trump-suspected-of-violating-espionage-act-according-to-released-search-warrant/

Wonder what the info on Macron is.

[Gromnir]

one thing we repeat over and over again is the difference 'tween legal and right and/or wise.  very quick the focus regarding the trump documents is gonna be the fight over whether trump did illegal, but such should be a secondary concern. whether trump personal is guilty o' crimes related to his retention o' documents (keeping in mind that regardless o' crimes, the papers being requested by doj and the archives were not trump's but were the property o' the people o' the US,) is deflection from the fundamental question o' whether or not trump acted reckless and irresponsible. even if doj decides not to prosecute, if they believed trump had highly sensitive documents in his possession, there were more than a little justification in making the attempt to retrieve such papers and intelligence. similar, IF trump did indeed have physical intelligence in his possession at mar-a-lago, intelligence which could compromise US assets, then regardless o' prosecution efforts there should be universal condemnation o' trump behaviour.

...

hate to do this, but am gonna bring up hillary and the emails. 

get tunnel vison on what is legal is gonna have people who has already made up their mind 'cause o' tribalism missing the more important issues... at least more important from Gromnir pov.

...

is all kinda new ground being broken. is now an effort to have the affidavit for probable cause made public, which would be unique in our experience. make such public before charges? well, ok then.

also, is a legal quirk few will find interesting at the moment, but 18 U.S. Code § 1924, the retention o' classified documents section o' code, is notable absent from the warrant. IF the feds were seeking to prosecute for mishandling and retention o' classified, then 1924 is most obvious section... but is no mention. is perhaps a way to avoid trump argument he declassified? speculation.

HA! Good Fun!

[majestic]

Looks like this Alex Jones Sandy Hook trial had a hilarious side effect. The plaintiff's council apparently obtained a copy of Jones' mobile phone data for the past two years (sent to them by Jones' defense, no less) and now the January 6th committee wants a piece of it.

 

[Bartimaeus]

34 minutes ago, majestic said:

Looks like this Alex Jones Sandy Hook trial had a hilarious side effect. The plaintiff's council apparently obtained a copy of Jones' mobile phone data for the past two years (sent to them by Jones' defense, no less) and now the January 6th committee wants a piece of it.

 

Thought that happened like a month ago, but apparently it was last week.

[Lexx]

I just finally want to see Trump and all his other cult goons in jail. Why is this such a hard thing to do..

[Gromnir]

12 hours ago, Lexx said:

I just finally want to see Trump and all his other cult goons in jail. Why is this such a hard thing to do..

so, gonna embrace the "lock her up," refrain but with a 2022 spin? 

let the rule of law and due process be damned, right? after all, they don't care 'bout rule of law and due process. 

maybe, perhaps, we should have formal charges followed by a court trial before locking up "trump and all his other cult goons"?

*sigh*

trump arguable did illegal over and over while President, but the ordinary process for dealing with a rogue chief executive is impeachment, and we saw how well that worked... twice. violations o' espionage act and confidential records statutes is highly technical and short o' proof o' intent to reveal US secrets to foreign powers, the typical punishment is loss o' job and the like.  prison would be swell and all but a bunch o' the goons already had their day in court and were convicted, only to be pardoned or have their sentences commuted.

in our opinion, the best avenue for criminalizing trump remains the fulton county, georgia efforts, even with all the hoopla o' the past week. nevertheless, that case faces the near impossible hurdle o' finding a jury o' twelve americans you could count on to convict. is likely at least a couple trump jurors is gonna be republicans and fox viewers. prove beyond a reasonable doubt to people who is gonna need extra convincing?

we keep mentioning how prison and proof of law breaking should be a secondary concern. somehow right v. wrong is ignored while pundits focus on the minutiae o' federal code sections. 

that said...

HA! Good Fun!

[Lexx]

23 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

so, gonna embrace the "lock her up," refrain but with a 2022 spin? 

Sure why not, I don't care.

23 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

let the rule of law and due process be damned, right? after all, they don't care 'bout rule of law and due process. 

Bruh, he is getting **** for years already and nothing is happening for one reason or the other. That said, I am fine with whatever makes america less of a ****hole country.

23 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

and we saw how well that worked... twice.

Yes, completely useless as nothing has changed for him. They just pretend it never happened and move on.

Edited August 13, 2022 by Lexx

[Gromnir]

look bruh, trump has only been out of office for a couple years and it were legal impossible to prosecute while he were in office, so what exact are you expecting? criminal investigations save for stuff such as murder with multiple witnesses take a long time.  

back in 2020 we observed:

and nobody pretended impeachment didn't happen. the problem is impeach is an inherent political process and somehow swaying members o' the President's party to convict following impeachment is historical improbable. the system is inherent busted 'cause it never envisioned a populist chief executive. people complain 'bout the electoral college, but the President in the Constitution is envisioned as some kinda wise man as selected by each state's wisest citizens, citizens with no personal stake in who is selected President save for their desire to see the best possible candidate elected to office. is so not s'posed to be democratic and populist, so impeachment and conviction makes more sense for the President as envisioned in 1787 than the reality we got in 2022... but to fix you need change the Constitution, bruh.

sheesh.

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 13, 2022 by Gromnir

[Gromnir]

19 minutes ago, Lexx said:

Sure why not, I don't care.

see, this part is honest. you want trump in "jail," but you don't genuine care 'bout rule o' law and due process as long as the bad guys (the folks you think is bad) get their comeuppance.

while President, trump showed utter contempt for the rule o' law, which is precise why is so important that if he is investigated, tried and convicted that he is afforded every legal process. do unto trump as he did unto blm protesters and border crossing detainees? he deserves such treatment, right? and what about barr? any doj lawyer who didn't stop barr and trump? how 'bout tucker carlson and fox news anchors? what about manchin and sinema? if it ain't the law and due process deciding who goes to prison, but is in fact lexx's notions o' justice, then...

*snort*

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Lexx]

I find it funny how much you are blowing up that small comment. This is not the first time that Trump and his goons are in trouble. He is dodging prison for years already, why should it be different this time. I'm sure he'll be fine, don't worry.

[Gromnir]

so, in spite o' a couple response, you were just keeding, or something similar? why so serious? 

excuse us while we suffer yet another a groundhog day moment... again. 

am also not worried 'bout trump or you. am a bit disappointed by individuals indignant concerning trump's flagrant offenses regarding rule o' law who clear have no knowledge o' rule o' law nor any real respect for law, but am not worried. same as it ever was. 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

15 hours ago, Lexx said:

I just finally want to see Trump and all his other cult goons in jail. Why is this such a hard thing to do..

They have the support from people in positions of power to make it near impossible. Even if Trump stole nuclear secrets and sold them to the Saudis, he faces a graver threat from his fast food heavy diet than he does prosecution by the US government.

[Gromnir]

so much for conspiracy theory being a right-wing disease, eh? is like last week never happened. not only did the fbi execute a search warrant at trump's home, but trump took the 5th more than 400 times in a deposition related to a ny civil case. so merrick garland does what we ain't never seen previous, with the search o' a former President's home and making public the warrant and receipt, but trump, obvious believing the impossibility o' his own invulnerability to criminal prosecution (HA!), functional sacrificed his civil case the result o' which means trump co assets is highly likely gonna be dissolved. nevertheless, is predictable parroting the shtick 'bout powerful men being 'bove the law 'cause the system is rigged or somesuch.

getting trump for the documents is not gonna be ez, although our recent twitter link regarding concealment gives hope. to criminalize under the espionage act you gotta show intent to harm the US or benefit a foreign power. so unless you can indeed show trump sold documents to the saudis, it is gonna be a tough slog getting a conviction. however, knowing concealment o' such documents may also be criminalized and am suspecting the lawyer affidavit insisting that all documents marked as classified were surrendered pursuant to the recent subpoena could suffice, but again we are getting into technicalities o' law as well as considerable equivocation.

edit: freebie nyt link

trump is corrupt. trump is a liar. trump is a security threat. the problem is none o' those things is necessarily illegal. our legal system makes it difficult to prosecute a defendant who has the best legal representation money can buy, 'cause the system is literal designed with the foundational proposition that it is better for ten guilty persons to go free rather than have one innocent suffer. the problem for poor people facing prosecution is that State has working for 'em 'mong the best lawyers and investigators as well as unlimited resources and while those officers o' the law is s'posed looking for truth, all to often their goal is to have good case closure rates. poor people is stuck with overworked public defenders or the best defense they may afford.

in 2020, tax fraud looked to be the most obvious criminal threat trump were facing, but so far it looks like weisselberg is willing to go to prison for trump even if the trump organization is also hit. 

again, trump don't take the 5th +400 times in a civil case if he believes as does kp, believes is near impossible for him to see the inside o' a prison. if the goal were to prove trump is smarter than you...

HA! Good Fun!

ps public defenders is typical among the most accomplished criminal lawyers you is likely to ever meet. don't fall for the tv and movie bs. the problem is public defenders do not have time or resources to match the feds or state prosecutors. work competent for five years in just about any public defender office and chances are high you are gonna see private firms falling all over themselves trying to hire you for impressive six figure starting money and huge signing bonuses... and is not surprising when the pd turns down such offers 'cause so many is true believers. 

pps is gonna be howls o' indignation and rage if trump ain't prosecuted for crimes identified in the recent mar-a-lago search warrant, but am personal cheering merrick garland for taking political heat and no doubt setting himself up to face republican ire after the november elections just to get the highly sensitive documents away from trump. going back and forth with subpoenas and additional requests and judge orders were the likely manner o' document retrieval, but garland stepped up and chose right over expedient. its a serious win and people is unjust ignoring the significance o' what garland already accomplished by authorizing the search and retrieval. 

Edited August 13, 2022 by Gromnir

[rjshae]

Reports are Salman Rushdie may lose an eye.

[rjshae]

3 hours ago, Lexx said:

I find it funny how much you are blowing up that small comment. This is not the first time that Trump and his goons are in trouble. He is dodging prison for years already, why should it be different this time. I'm sure he'll be fine, don't worry.

The irony is how much effort the US government has spent trying to extradite Julian Assange on the same charges of violating the Espionage Act.

[Gromnir]

11 minutes ago, rjshae said:

The irony is how much effort the US government has spent trying to extradite Julian Assange on the same charges of violating the Espionage Act.

how is ironic exact? another alanis fail? 

again, so not same at this point as there haven't been any charges. kinda a major hurdle, no? unless you know more and aren't telling. intent to harm US or provide to a foreign power is elements. at this point it appears almost certain trump had highly sensitive documents in his possession, but prove beyond a reasonable doubt he intended harm to US or has provided to a foreign power?

am predicting is gonna be all kinds o' bad analogizing o' trump to sterling, manning, snowden or assange w/o sufficient fact to back. 

HA! Good Fun!

ps keep in mind a whole lotta time passed before the US chose to indict assange and based on records, the main reason they finally did so way after initial investigations were due to possible elapsing o' the statute o' limitations. am guessing you could say is ironic 'cause tangential the trump administration were involved in extradition efforts and now trump himself is being investigated... which is kinda remote and attenuated, particular as trump during his campaign were quite complimentary o' wikileaks. whatever. 

Edited August 13, 2022 by Gromnir

[Gorth]

Maybe the documents were modern tank designs he wanted to sell to his old friend Putin

[Gromnir]

Just now, Gorth said:

Maybe the documents were modern tank designs he wanted to sell to his old friend Putin

am suspecting one o' the more unsatisfying aspects o' this unfolding story is that most o' us want to know what were the intelligence trump had in his possession before the feds retrieved. unfortunate, given the nature o' such info, a relative small number o' people other than those in trump orbit will know what the state secrets s'posed at risk.

funny aside...

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Bartimaeus]

3 hours ago, Gromnir said:

am also not worried 'bout trump or you. am a bit disappointed by individuals indignant concerning trump's flagrant offenses regarding rule o' law who clear have no knowledge o' rule o' law nor any real respect for law, but am not worried. same as it ever was. 

None of the rest of us are lawyers or have that background; most of us see obvious wrongdoing (from our own individual perspectives on what is 'wrong') and want heads to roll. It's been about six years since the clear Trump political wrongdoings started (not accounting for anything he did before that outside of the political realm, which would be mostly irrelevant to us since before that, he was just yet another bastard billionaire - one of many), and that's a damned long time with regards to a very distinct lack of head rolling appropriate to the level of harm done to our government, institutions, and society at large...enough for a lot of us to get enraged and start thinking that maybe mob justice is an attractive alternative to a broken system where people like Trump can "get away" with everything he's said and done. As for the issue of legal vs. wrong, that only makes it worse - if obvious wrongdoing is not actually illegal and the ones doing it don't face punishment, then it only reinforces that the system is broken (particularly in the face of not being able to change the law in any meaningful way!), making the desire for wrath all the stronger. Never minding the issue of 'the system' and what certain individuals get away with, the last ten or so years have made it pretty clear that both sides of the political aisle have been pushed well beyond their limit with their counterparts: the divisions are so immense that so many (too many!) of us do not want to live with, talk to, or really even see the other because it's become increasingly difficult to view your political opposite as being anything but despicable and divorced from reality. Divisions that deep, combined with the times not being nearly so good as they once apparently were, are likely to reach their boiling point sooner or later, and this ever-swelling mass of fury would seem to be just a symptom.

Edited August 13, 2022 by Bartimaeus

[Gromnir]

3 minutes ago, Bartimaeus said:

None of the rest of us are lawyers or have that background; 

gonna need be more specific. is part o' the problem. we see general grievance that trump is bad and that heads should roll. ok, for what exact?  after more than six years bartimaeus, not a lawyer, is no doubt quite aware trump were not gonna be prosecuted while President. if that hasn't sunk in by now am not sure how to help. that were the point o' the mueller kerfuffle, yes?  mueller couldn't say trump were possible subject obstruction of justice charges because he could not be prosecuted until after he were no longer President, and it were deemed manifest unfair to formal accuse trump o' obstruction w/o giving him the chance to defend in court. so mueller says he couldn't rule out the possibility o' obstruction... which is effective accusing trump o' obstruction as he didn't rule out as he did with the conspiracy (and not collusion) charge.

and yeah, impeachment doesn't work the way it is designed, but you know the solution: change the Constitution. 

so what we are really talking 'bout is two years, and not six. has been less than two full years since trump has been President and functional immune to prosecution. in that time he has been facing constant legal battles. serious, what do you want from the folks in georgia, ny and washington dc exact? you want 'em to punish bad people? well that ain't their job. is best you are disabused o' that notion sooner or later. we keep trying to explain how law and right ain't same and it is water off the duck's back. need be a violation o' law for prosecutors to act and there must also be a chance o' a successful prosecution for those officers o' the court to move forward with charges. so name the crimes and the villains and the evidence prosecutors is ignoring that ordinary folks would suffer incarceration in the same situation. bad men telling lies and being corrupt ain't enough. sorry, but it just ain't.

and why exact shouldn't trump get same process benefits as any other nogoodnik? lexx stated he don't care. no different than "lock her up"? you feel same?

everybody wants the bad guys to get their comeuppance and we wonder why the system makes it so ez to elude justice... right up until we are the ones being false accused o' a crime and then we are mighty grateful we get a lawyer no matter what and that we can stay quiet during a police interrogation and that cops need probable cause to get warrants.

the rage at them is all too often misplaced and misguided. better make sure you understand that you could be one o' them due to mistaken identity or accident or a multitude o' situations unanticipated. 

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Bartimaeus]

On 8/13/2022 at 6:01 PM, Gromnir said:

[...]

As I imagine is the case for most people these days, I am a conflicted individual with a mess of feelings and ideas...which is particularly relevant right now because it is making it extremely difficult to effectively get across all of that which I am trying to convey in an intelligible manner. Like with the ongoing Ukrainian-Russian conflict, I personally occupy multiple perspectives that are at odds with each other. My previous post are two of those perspectives, the former of which (the first half of the post) wherein I keenly feel the fury of the anti-Trumpers, who are largely so completely beyond the point of caring about the particulars of the U.S. political and legal systems that have allowed Trump to avoid personal culpability for his actions thus far. We simply do not care anymore, the pain has been too long and too extreme for "don't hate the player, hate the game" to be enough, particularly when many of us already held a cynical disgust for the system that makes this the current reality in the first place (and again, when it is also simply not feasible for the system to be changed anyways).

But as you pointed out, that is the exact feeling experienced by people on the opposite side with regards to Obama, Hillary, Biden, and so on...which is what the latter half (the second perspective) of my previous post was for: the recognition that on some level, we are all too far gone, that way too many of us are experiencing a kind of visceral wrath that is making what should be important (law and its consistent application!) feel a terrible obstacle getting in the way of actual justice...and with the way things are going (and being completely unable to affect it), it is only going to get worse. The first perspective also contains my anger at the current Supreme Court, where it is becoming increasingly difficult not to feel as though a tyranny of the minority taking away fundamental rights, regardless of their legal reasoning or process by which it happened, should be met with the exact response necessary to reverse it, and damn the consequences.

And yet...not too long ago, by means of a third perspective opposite to the first, I also expressed a terrible fear of what might ensue if the Democratic Party gains a large enough control of Congress to finally eliminate the filibuster and seize control of the Supreme Court through it. Why? Well, I can only speak for myself: I am not for throwing the entire rule of law into the garbage can because I want to see Trump finally get his due...but is there at least one part of me that is, one that can speak louder than the others at certain times because I am not a judge or lawyer trying to take a measured approach to everything? Yes: in fact, that part of me is strong enough that I don't believe I could ever be either a judge or a lawyer, as I would be fundamentally incapable of doing my best to fairly view or defend someone I believe to be a murderer, rapist, or any number of other detestable qualities. As I said, you have a perspective and background that the rest of us do not, that many of us could not ever have because we're simply not that kind of person (or maybe because we've grown up in a different kind of social/political environment that has made that perspective all but impossible for us to attain). Too many of us are just tired and angry and want the problem to simply go away, and that's often the feeling that comes to the forefront when we're posting random crap we feel but do not think deeply about to a message board as a kind of outlet for said negative feelings. Which is likely why...

On 8/13/2022 at 1:44 PM, Gromnir said:

so, in spite o' a couple response, you were just keeding, or something similar? why so serious? 

...responses like this are so often necessary to what people post in here - when it becomes obvious that while someone may have had a deep feeling that made them post something, they did not have deep thoughts behind it that would be able to fully rationally explain it to a non-like-minded person. You might be able to make someone as conflicted about these matters as I am see some reason (and to be clear, I do think I agree with everything you said), but...that's only me - it's pretty easy to influence me on political matters precisely because of how conflicted and unsure I am.

Edited August 15, 2022 by Bartimaeus
personality -> personal

[Malcador]

22 hours ago, Lexx said:

That said, I am fine with whatever makes america less of a ****hole country.

Trump getting locked up, unlikely as that is, isn't going to change that all that much.

[Lexx]

It's a step in the right direction. Can also lock up Hillary Clinton next, fine by me.

Edited August 14, 2022 by Lexx