Politics XXXV (Life in the Vault is about to change)

[ShadySands]

I've said before, the last time this came up, that I think increased national service opportunities would be a good thing so long as it isn't mandatory, which is my sticking point.

I don't think I ever argued that Calax was wrong about national service not being limited to the military as that was in response to Bruce and ktchong. I don't think that conscription will have kt's desired effect as it will probably be sidestepped by those with the means to do so and if not then that's what champagne units are for. Not sure if something is getting mixed or not because I have been drinking since I don't know when. 

That reminds me, I need another drink

[Calax]

3 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

I don't think that conscription will have kt's desired effect as it will probably be sidestepped by those with the means to do so and if not then that's what champagne units are for. 

Certainly worked for El Presidente

[Guard Dog]

11 minutes ago, Calax said:

True, but then it could also be seen as doing your Civic duty, akin to sitting on a Jury.

don't even get me started on THAT! 

 

Right... like I'd ever get picked. No layer worth their salt would want me anywhere near their jury

[Guard Dog]

7 minutes ago, Calax said:

Certainly worked for El Presidente

Several of them! The bar for military service in government has really dropped off. 

[Malcador]

Knowing the US someone will take Starship Troopers as the example for how to handle national service.

[Gromnir]

13 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Heck I think even those two examples are wide open to 14th amendment challenges

fed prerequisites on funding which encourage or discourage behaviours is commonplace and established law. example: no fed tax payer dollars to fund abortions is okie dokie even though it disproportionate affects women who need medicaid. takes only a little creativity to prevent money from going to those who avoid service.

HA! Good Fun!

[Guard Dog]

6 minutes ago, Gromnir said:

fed prerequisites on funding which encourage or discourage behaviours is commonplace and established law. example: no fed tax payer dollars to fund abortions is okie dokie even though it disproportionate affects women who need medicaid. takes only a little creativity to prevent money from going to those who avoid service.

HA! Good Fun!

Now that you mention it that is exactly how they got states to set their highway speed limits

[Raithe]

Seeing all those protestors for "liberty" from the quarantine who dressed up in pseudo-Founding Father outfits, and George Washington masks and the like.. I  do wonder how many of them remember that Washington is the only US President to lead armed troops against US Citizens. Citizens who were rebelling because of .. wait for it.. Taxes.

 

 

 

[Guard Dog]

5 minutes ago, Raithe said:

Seeing all those protestors for "liberty" from the quarantine who dressed up in pseudo-Founding Father outfits, and George Washington masks and the like.. I  do wonder how many of them remember that Washington is the only US President to lead armed troops against US Citizens. Citizens who were rebelling because of .. wait for it.. Taxes.

 

 

 

See? See? Sometimes I think we LOST that war!

[Malcador]

30 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Several of them! The bar for military service in government has really dropped off. 

Reminds me of reading a FB post accusing Obama of dodging the draft.

[Gromnir]

27 minutes ago, Guard Dog said:

Now that you mention it that is exactly how they got states to set their highway speed limits

as well as a minimum age for alcohol consumption. no fed highway construction funds for states unless they set minimum age for alcohol to at least 21. south dakota, previous, were 19 minimum. 

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Amentep]

Seatbelt laws as well, IIRC.

[Gromnir]

the thing is, involuntary servitude is legal a bit different than seat belts, drinking age and speed limits, which is why we mentioned abortion. 

the US already provides all kinda advantages to those who serve in the military with va loans and gi college benefits. is not taking too much effort to functional expand such programs for "national" service while simultaneous diminishing benefits for those who forego such service. make fed funding programs contingent 'pon fulfillment o' those programs which aid those who served is gonna presumptive pass Constitutional review.

best way to make a national service program work is with private and social pressure as 'posed to government. convince all the private universities and most major businesses to voluntarily adopt a policy whereby those who complete national service is given preferential treatment and you wouldn't need worry 'bout the Constitution. however, broad cultural/social change takes leadership as well as a nation far less polarized than 2020 USA.

HA! Good Fun!

[Zoraptor]

7 hours ago, Orogun01 said:

So the US navy is in the South China Sea, get your uniform ready gents WW3 is back on the menu

The US navy is in the SCS very regularly. They even toodle past China's self proclaimed island bases regularly, and US planes fly through China's ADIZ very regularly. Occasionally you get incidents over it like the mid air collision off Hainan (?) some years ago, but generally it's a big nothingburger. The US tends to ignore others' self proclaimed territorial waters, and always has.

(The only unusual thing is that the US has two carriers in the nearby region effectively out of action due to coronavirus. 99% of the time fleet movements aren't any sort of prelude to war, they're just rotating assets.)

[Orogun01]

1 hour ago, Zoraptor said:

The US navy is in the SCS very regularly. They even toodle past China's self proclaimed island bases regularly, and US planes fly through China's ADIZ very regularly. Occasionally you get incidents over it like the mid air collision off Hainan (?) some years ago, but generally it's a big nothingburger. The US tends to ignore others' self proclaimed territorial waters, and always has.

(The only unusual thing is that the US has two carriers in the nearby region effectively out of action due to coronavirus. 99% of the time fleet movements aren't any sort of prelude to war, they're just rotating assets.)

He tends to do a lot alarmist content like this, hopefully nothing will happen but its incredible the number of times we got close to an incident that could spark WW3. There were also rumors of CCPP sending infected people deliberately to the US in order to spread the infection. IDK what they would do if the US presence in the region was to collapse but they might try to take Taiwan by force.
Also, it would be nice for the US to recognize Taiwan just as a big F you to China over this Wuhan flu thing.

[Guard Dog]

4 hours ago, Amentep said:

Seatbelt laws as well, IIRC.

Now there is one I find really irritating. I'd do some civil disobedience on that on but I do actually wear it. I was paying attention in science class when they covered Newton's laws of motion. But it galls me to be told I HAVE to. 

[BruceVC]

8 hours ago, ShadySands said:

I've said before, the last time this came up, that I think increased national service opportunities would be a good thing so long as it isn't mandatory, which is my sticking point.

I don't think I ever argued that Calax was wrong about national service not being limited to the military as that was in response to Bruce and ktchong. I don't think that conscription will have kt's desired effect as it will probably be sidestepped by those with the means to do so and if not then that's what champagne units are for. Not sure if something is getting mixed or not because I have been drinking since I don't know when. 

That reminds me, I need another drink

Also you assumed when I say I support conscription I meant deployment to military zones to see active combat like you did when you served your country patriotically 

I dont mean that and never did. The military has many other roles that are non-combative and people can serve there country  in these other units as an exercise that could be both character building and constructive. I am not suggesting people need to fight wars 

Ktchong was trolling and race baiting  as he normally does, I am not and dont do that when I make these types of points 

[BruceVC]

9 hours ago, Gromnir said:

the thing is, involuntary servitude is legal a bit different than seat belts, drinking age and speed limits, which is why we mentioned abortion. 

the US already provides all kinda advantages to those who serve in the military with va loans and gi college benefits. is not taking too much effort to functional expand such programs for "national" service while simultaneous diminishing benefits for those who forego such service. make fed funding programs contingent 'pon fulfillment o' those programs which aid those who served is gonna presumptive pass Constitutional review.

best way to make a national service program work is with private and social pressure as 'posed to government. convince all the private universities and most major businesses to voluntarily adopt a policy whereby those who complete national service is given preferential treatment and you wouldn't need worry 'bout the Constitution. however, broad cultural/social change takes leadership as well as a nation far less polarized than 2020 USA.

HA! Good Fun!

Gromnir I want to get the input from you and others who understand the USA constitution and the principle of freedom of speech and how it can be abused especially now in the time of this global pandemic and more importantly going forward how this can be prevented 

My point starts with Fox news, I watched the excellent series " Loudest Voice in the room ",  which is about Roger Ailes and the creation of the channel. Part of the success of this channel is that Ailes identified that many Americans didnt want to watch legitimate and necessarily factual news but would be more interested in theater and news that confirmed there aspirations and biases. So the news from Fox news basically at times didnt need to be always  fact checked. The reality is he was right as we can see from the success of Fox

I also recognize that Fox News does have legitimate news so this is not a sweeping generalization and we also see theater and questionable news from other channels 

But then the evolution of Fox, or some would argue the erosion of Fox news, reached the point below where Trish Reagan in the early days of the virus and before it became unequivocal the true nature of virus claimed basically it " was a left wing conspiracy theory and an attempt to impeach the president " 

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/27/media/trish-regan-fox-news/index.html

Trump has definitely exacerbated the "alternative facts and fake news " dichotomy but this problem did exist before Trump which leads to my final point

How did the USA, the most successful and influential country and economy in the world , end up at this point and how do we prevent this or reduce this type of media hyperbole so that it cannot lead to misinformation in a time like the  global crisis where misinformation can cost lives?

If the likes of Fox news can spread fake news like Trish Regan did under the auspice of freedom of speech doesn't this need to be somehow changed  Constitutionally, is that even possible legally ? 

 

Edited April 24, 2020 by BruceVC

[ShadySands]

2 hours ago, BruceVC said:

Also you assumed when I say I support conscription I meant deployment to military zones to see active combat like you did when you served your country patriotically 

No, I only assumed you wanted to send ktchong to Afghanistan. I do disagree with conscription though and was surprised to see that you support it.

I thought this was fixed

[BruceVC]

12 minutes ago, ShadySands said:

No, I only assumed you wanted to send ktchong to Afghanistan. I do disagree with conscription though and was surprised to see that you support it.

I thought this was fixed

My comments around Ktchong was just making a point on his level of trolling

The reality about conscription in the USA is its never going to be realistically implemented for numerous reasons but that doesnt mean we cant discuss its benefits because there are countries that nowadays practice, or offer alternative services, conscription that are Democracies and respect human rights

However I then did some research and based on the list below most countries that have mandatory conscription actually arent Democracies at all or have appalling human rights records

So in fact my point is moot because the majority of Democracies that I support dont have it or have stopped legalizing it  which means you right overall about conscription not  being a reasonable or feasible approach governments should  follow 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription

[Elerond]

2 hours ago, BruceVC said:

My comments around Ktchong was just making a point on his level of trolling

The reality about conscription in the USA is its never going to be realistically implemented for numerous reasons but that doesnt mean we cant discuss its benefits because there are countries that nowadays practice, or offer alternative services, conscription that are Democracies and respect human rights

However I then did some research and based on the list below most countries that have mandatory conscription actually arent Democracies at all or have appalling human rights records

So in fact my point is moot because the majority of Democracies that I support dont have it or have stopped legalizing it  which means you right overall about conscription not  being a reasonable or feasible approach governments should  follow 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription

Feasibility and reasonability of conscription depends lots of country's general defensive situation. For example for Finland other options really aren't feasible if we want to maintain ability to defend most of our country. Also Israel and South Korea have similar geopolitical location where other options aren't really options at least today. It is easier to not have conscription when your neighboring country doesn't have several battalions of attack ready troops 50 km of your border  

[HoonDing]

Nowadays Americans are more fond of shooting brown people at home than brown people abroad.

Edited April 24, 2020 by HoonDing

[BruceVC]

18 minutes ago, Elerond said:

Feasibility and reasonability of conscription depends lots of country's general defensive situation. For example for Finland other options really aren't feasible if we want to maintain ability to defend most of our country. Also Israel and South Korea have similar geopolitical location where other options aren't really options at least today. It is easier to not have conscription when your neighboring country doesn't have several battalions of attack ready troops 50 km of your border  

Elerond did you do military service or alternative service, I see Finland is on the list ?

[Elerond]

6 minutes ago, BruceVC said:

Elerond did you do military service or alternative service, I see Finland is on the list ?

I did military service

[Orogun01]

3 hours ago, Elerond said:

I did military service

Was it useful? Like do you feel ready to defend your country?
Was it a lot of skying and shooting and learning how to curse in Russian?