Which did you enjoy more, Poe or Poe2?

[Verde]

 

PoE became a chore and I thought the White Marches were a completely mess of pacing (I think the second one got a 4/10 on Gamespot!).

Ha! Actually, now when you mention it White March is my favourite piece of content in the whole PoE frenchise so far. Pacing is excellent, combat is satisfying by being challenging but not frustrating. It provides just enough freedom while still providing strong narrative with revelation that is foreshadowed throughout the adventure. I think the balance of dark themes, adventure and humor is perfect - something that wasn't achieved in neither of base games.

 

Durgans battery is an excellent dungeon, and Ondra's sanctum was brilliant. Deadfire topped it in term of gameplay complexity, but I thought it is still the most interesting location in the series.

I wouldn't call a fight every few feet excellent pacing Edited March 12, 2019 by Verde

[daven]

Deadfire.

[Daidre]

POE1 by huge margin, especially with White March. I was so excited on Deadfire release by all new class options and multi classes but game was huge disappointment for me. I was designing one build after another but there is no content to throw at them - no proper dungeon crawling, no attrition and difficulty was still pathetic casual-friendly last time I played it in August with BoW. 

 

I have more than 1k hours logged in POE 1, but thought of getting through Neketaka again with all walls of text and tiny portions of actual gameplay here and there completely killed my desire to play Deadfire even with new DLC content.

 

Writing is another pet peeves of mine. I liked most of companions in POE but I never expected to see anyone so obnoxious like Xoti or Teheku in Obsidian game. This two just do not shut up about how special they are and everyone else are stuck like broken record on 1-2 topics they only speak about (for example Pallegina and Vallian Republics). 

 

I played POE on and off for years but I skipped Deadfire right to Pathfinder: Kingmaker which is head above everything I hoped to see one day from Obsidian (and got text ship battles and 4 hours long main plot).

Edited March 12, 2019 by Daidre

[xzar_monty]

I also agree that the White March content is really very good, although somewhat marred by the fact that the Durgan's Battery part of it is ever so slightly reminiscent of Moria. I mean, the parallels just about couldn't be more obvious.

 

Given how good Tolkien was and how poor nearly all post-Tolkien fantasy is, I'd really go out of my way to avoid parallels that are too obvious.

[xzar_monty]

I played POE on and off for years but I skipped Deadfire right to Pathfinder: Kingmaker which is head above everything I hoped to see one day from Obsidian (and got text ship battles and 4 hours long main plot).

 

Wow! I mean, nothing against P:K, but are you seriously saying the writing in that game isn't all cliche? There's nothing original in it that I have seen, and even the acting is all cliche. What's more, I believe this whole "we're nothing but cliche, every single one of us" is completely intentional, i.e. there was never even any attempt at proper writing, it's pulp and it's meant to be pulp.

 

I like the game. But it's basically the equivalent of the Batman TV series, the campy one with Adam West & co.

[Daidre]

In P:K it starts as cliché but does have interesting turns and subverting in later chapters. But in Deadfire you can see everything person is right in introduction dialog for most companions. There is no surprises and very little character development.

Plus, reading Deadfire dialogues I can't stop noticing how try-hard writer was to make character look cool/snarky/cute. Take any POE 2 party member and he always has at least 2 of this 3 qualities.

[Boeroer]

Edér has none of that.

 

Nor have Konstanten or Rekke I think.

Edited March 12, 2019 by Boeroer

[Daidre]

Eder is definitely snarky and endlessly cute with his animal-loving thing. He is still my favorite person in all POE. Pity that Aloth is suddenly duty-obsessed in Deadfire.

 

I do not count sidekicks because they are barely more then character concepts.

[xzar_monty]

In P:K it starts as cliché but does have interesting turns and subverting in later chapters. But in Deadfire you can see everything person is right in introduction dialog for most companions. There is no surprises and very little character development.

Plus, reading Deadfire dialogues I can't stop noticing how try-hard writer was to make character look cool/snarky/cute. Take any POE 2 party member and he always has at least 2 of this 3 qualities.

 

I don't agree with that. Eder and Aloth are old friends of the Watcher, so they don't really count in this regard (ditto Pallegina, but I can't say anything about her since I've never had her). Serafen and Maia Rua contain some pretty decent character development, for example.

 

Also, there's nothing cool/snarky/cute about Eder or Konstanten, for example. Could you be a bit more specific about the try-hard quality you refer to? I don't see it, to be honest, and I'd like to understand you better. I think pretty much all the characters are written quite well. Serafen even has a few genuinely creative interjections, which was a surprise.

[Verde]

The only char I find super cringey is Xoti. And I wish there was ton more dialogue with companions. I almost feel like creating custom party members makes the game more enjoyable even from a story perspective bc you can just use your imagination and you wont be let down when your companions are silent for most of the end game .

Edited March 12, 2019 by Verde

[Daidre]

What development Serafen and Maya have? They both go though similar "maybe Principi/Ruatai is not perfect" moment in last quest dialogue but they never had a chance to show it beside end slides. Their reactions never change - both still massively disapprove PC for any bad word about their faction. 

Could you be a bit more specific about the try-hard quality you refer to?

 

I still shudder from disgust remembering Xoti abusing hem of my Watcher shirt or Tekehu with "look into his big black (fish!) eyes".

Maya with best of the best sniper comes to mind too.

 

I have less issues with quality of writing for others but huge problem with quantity.

Edited March 12, 2019 by Daidre

[daven]

Xoti is pretty terrible.

[MaxQuest]

Deadfire in my opinion has a really lot of improvements over PoE1 and I liked both a lot.

 

But if speaking about enjoyment... I would answer that subjectively I enjoyed PoE1 more back then, than Deadfire now.

At the same time I don't really know if this would hold true, if I played PoE1 after Deadfire.

 

P.S. If I tried to pinpoint what exactly I liked more about PoE1... it would probably be:

- longer critical path

- less fanatical Pallegina

- (might be wrong here but had a sensation that) companions had deeper writing about them and more dialogue options

- grimer/darker atmosphere. And gods being rather mysterios, without that incompetent vibe

- stronger crowd-control and debuffing

- enemies having more crowd control and nasty stuff themselves (shades, cean gwlas, druids, those monks...)

- enemies mostly relying on their abilities/defenses and less on inflated health pools

Edited March 12, 2019 by MaxQuest

[bugarup]

First, Deadfire. Second, I always feel like I'm communicating with a sentient being from the parallel dimension whenever someone puts Kingmaker's writing over, well, anything of Obsidian's (or Troika's, Bioware's and even that janitor's who writes for Bethesda). Because...how?   It is blandly adequate at its best and at its worst (looking at you, Ophelia and Ragnarok) it's like written by someone who never actually bothered to read anything in the first place.  

 

 

Also Tekehu has plenty of development, Serafen is  , even somewhat bland Maia has more personality than all P:K's cardboard cutouts stashed together, the NPCs are, like, from entirely different league (like, Atsura or Tayn versus This Whatsisname Cleric and That Dude With a Sword), the gods are better, the paladins are incomparably better, fight me irl.    

[wingedchocolatecake]

I would say that I slightly prefer PoE I. It just felt much more like a compact story, whereas Deadfire is a huge, sprawling mass of a game with a lot of exploration. I think PoE I had better writing snd the companions had more depth and feel to them. Mechanically speaking, Deadfire is much better in almost all aspects.

[Daidre]

I enjoyed all Obsidian writing until Deadfire happened. Especially in KOTOR 2 and Alpha Protocol. P:K is not even close to it and never will be. My love to this game is for combat, dungeon crawling and amazing character building that comes with D&D derivative system. And I really, really love D&D.

 

I do not replay RPGs for hundreds of hours to enjoy their questionable literature quality, I barely pay attention to it when things like Xoti are not pushed into my face.

 

My problem with Deadfire that she and Teheku are pushed into my face (could replace then with mercs) and there is so much talking and info-damping for every little adventure/combat that replay is not attractive. But first run was disappointing too because main plot and companion quests are so short. And, since it was early version, lot of quests were hellishly bugged and end boss never appeared.

Edited March 12, 2019 by Daidre

[Rooksx]

The party AI in Deadfire (albeit with the Custom AI conditions mod) makes it very hard to go back to PoE. My last party in PoE was quite micro-heavy, which led to tedium. Being able to automate the activation of basic buffs and other stuff makes a huge difference to me.

[xzar_monty]

I do not replay RPGs for hundreds of hours to enjoy their questionable literature quality, I barely pay attention to it when things like Xoti are not pushed into my face.

 

Btw, here's something that I think is genuinely interesting (and occasionally worrying, but not in this instance), from a psychological point of view. It goes like this:

 

The foulest and most abusive language, that which centers around feelings of disgust and hatred, along with fantasies of destruction and ruination, is almost without exception directed at female NPCs. Xoti, Grieving Mother, Aerie, etc. This forum is as good an example as any other forum.

[xzar_monty]

First, Deadfire. Second, I always feel like I'm communicating with a sentient being from the parallel dimension whenever someone puts Kingmaker's writing over, well, anything of Obsidian's (or Troika's, Bioware's and even that janitor's who writes for Bethesda). Because...how?   It is blandly adequate at its best and at its worst (looking at you, Ophelia and Ragnarok) it's like written by someone who never actually bothered to read anything in the first place. 

 

Yep. The writing in Kingmaker is utterly terrible.

 

Here's an interesting paradox that has been extensively discussed in the relevant literature (with rather few definite conclusions, for obvious reasons).

 

1) Questions of taste are inherently subjective. I.e. there are no rights or wrongs.

2) But then there are cases where this simpy isn't true if you have like any sense whatsoever. Suppose that someone genuinely values Kenny G over John Coltrane. Ed Wood over Stanley Kubrick. Britney Spears over Ella Fitzgerald (as a singer). James Patterson over Edgar Allan Poe. Andy Warhol over Leonardo da Vinci. It'd be extremely difficult to take that person seriously, wouldn't it?

[Wormerine]

 

 

Ha! Actually, now when you mention it White March is my favourite piece of content in the whole PoE frenchise so far. Pacing is excellent, combat is satisfying by being challenging but not frustrating. It provides just enough freedom while still providing strong narrative with revelation that is foreshadowed throughout the adventure. I think the balance of dark themes, adventure and humor is perfect - something that wasn't achieved in neither of base games.

 

Durgans battery is an excellent dungeon, and Ondra's sanctum was brilliant. Deadfire topped it in term of gameplay complexity, but I thought it is still the most interesting location in the series.

I wouldn't call a fight every few feet excellent pacing

I remember WM being dense but never boring. While some areas were packed with combat areas for the most part they were different from each other (some parts of Durgan Battery had a bit too many similar mobs, especially the lowest level). Outside areas like (Longwatch Falls, Russetwood, Whitestone Hollow) are the best outside areas in the series, with bunch of unique encounters, some story content. I liked that apprach more over filler content of PoE1 and one fight per map content of Deadfire. 

[xzar_monty]

Ha, I just went through some of the White March yesterday and thought that bloody heck, at least half of these battles should have been dropped. They were just filler. Luckily, Obsidian did just that in Deadfire.

[MountainTiger]

Deadfire in my opinion has a really lot of improvements over PoE1 and I liked both a lot.

 

But if speaking about enjoyment... I would answer that subjectively I enjoyed PoE1 more back then, than Deadfire now.

At the same time I don't really know if this would hold true, if I played PoE1 after Deadfire.

 

P.S. If I tried to pinpoint what exactly I liked more about PoE1... it would probably be:

- longer critical path

- less fanatical Pallegina

- (might be wrong here but had a sensation that) companions had deeper writing about them and more dialogue options

- grimer/darker atmosphere. And gods being rather mysterios, without that incompetent vibe

- stronger crowd-control and debuffing

- enemies having more crowd control and nasty stuff themselves (shades, cean gwlas, druids, those monks...)

- enemies mostly relying on their abilities/defenses and less on inflated health pools

 

The gameplay notes here are right on for me. Deadfire's system changes push combat in a direction I find boring in comparison to POE 1.

[Daidre]

 

 Yep. The writing in Kingmaker is utterly terrible.

 

Hey, it is matter of taste.

 

For me Deadfire is like special kind of torture - tons of boring and completely useless info about characters/setting written in purple prose and voiced with yet another bad accent. Every NPC talks x3 more than he should with zero actual impact on story or gameplay. And there is not enough dungeons, fun combat and C&C to suffer it for. 

 

I would be more forgiving if it was first game but after NWN 2: Mask of Betrayer and even more recent White March it is just embarrassing.

 

I hope Microsoft will hire this people good editor who will cut all "high philosophy beyond understanding of weak minds" out of texts so I'll have usual RPG routine where every word counts and matters. Or will kick out half of them and hires game designers so game was not turning into visual novel for hours of time.

 

So, maybe my tastes is horrible, but I prefer texts with actual info in them and not detrimental to game pacing in their quantity. I read high literature when I want high literature and no attempts for it from yesterday students and twitter stars who have more brilliant ideas and political opinions than common sense. 

Edited March 12, 2019 by Daidre

[Verde]

Ha, I just went through some of the White March yesterday and thought that bloody heck, at least half of these battles should have been dropped. They were just filler. Luckily, Obsidian did just that in Deadfire.

Yep. Filler plagued most of PoE1 and the DLCs. Deadfire did a much better job here.

Edited March 12, 2019 by Verde

[xzar_monty]

 

 

 Yep. The writing in Kingmaker is utterly terrible.

 

So, maybe my tastes is horrible, but I prefer texts with actual info in them and not detrimental to game pacing in their quantity. I read high literature when I want high literature and no attempts for it from yesterday students and twitter stars who have more brilliant ideas and political opinions than common sense. 

 

 

Yo. To the extent that you had an argument, you just ruined it with this last piece. Like: #1 you don't know these are "yesterday students", whatever that means, #2 you don't know these are twitter stars (they almost certainly aren't, even if such people exist in the first place), #3 you have no idea about their political opinions (which certainly aren't apparent in the game), #4 the game does not allow one to make a judgement on their common sense.

 

You kinda tried to make it look as if you're commenting on the Obsidian crew, but in fact you were only talking about your own unbased opinions and biases. Which is kinda poor. I'm always up for a good discussion, but that didn't really qualify as an argument or even a properly considered opinion.

Edited March 12, 2019 by xzar_monty