Deadfire FAILING

[MaxQuest]

even so, am relieved you found clarification regarding our point regarding idiocy o' fan collective.  baby steps it seems.

Ehh Gromnir. Am glad that you feel relieved. And at same time am saddened. Your reply style more and more resembles that of Litter-Bearer fan type (that is described in the bottom part of this article).

There is really no need to be that highbrow and condescending.

 

That said, I'll see myself out, as am no longer interested in the subject of this thread, nor in continuing such discussion.

[Gromnir]

 

even so, am relieved you found clarification regarding our point regarding idiocy o' fan collective.  baby steps it seems.

Ehh Gromnir. Am glad that you feel relieved. And at same time am saddened. Your reply style more and more resembles that of Litter-Bearer fan type (that is described in the bottom part of this article).

There is really no need to be that highbrow and condescending.

 

That said, I'll see myself out, as am no longer interested in the subject of this thread, nor in continuing such discussion.

 

well, if you is gonna resort to convenient categorization/marginalization based on tv tropes website, then am believing a bit o' condescension is warranted.

 

heck, the category you indicate don't mesh well with the fact we observed how fan idiocy were only a collective issue rather than individual. in any event, as somebody who has been posting for decades here and elsewhere, our criticisms is widespread. we sure as heck haven't held our self up as some kinda one true measure o' game goodness.  our opinions is no more relevant than yours-- never even implied otherwise.  but take your opinion and Gromnir's and a handful o' others and somehow pretend as if an imagined consensus from the few dozen beta regulars is meaningful is the worst kinda arrogance.

 

max feels victimized?  *chuckle* so too has any number o' others and groups AND developers.  our most harsh game related criticism has, in point o' fact, been directed at developers, as folks such as josh and david gaider and others could attest even if such a reality don't mesh with max's hasty marginalization efforts. 

 

that said, we will concede how even w/o reply/quote silliness, you have managed to draw us off-topic and make your response little more than a complaint 'bout Gromnir.  clear weren't reply/quote which were problematic.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Sven_]

listen to fans, but don't trust they know what they want, 'cause chances are they do not.

 

 

Basically, fans (and generally players) tend to list what they think they want rather than what they really want for far too many reasons to discuss. One of them being fairly obvious: You don't know whether something is awesome until you actually get to play it. That's just the truth, and I am no different. Plus, some of the best games in the history of gaming had probably never been made with that mindset. Thanks to post-mortems on places such as Gamasutra we know some iconic games involved serious doubt and angst expressed right at the studio. On occasion up until a mere weeks upon the final release. The post mortem of Thief The Dark Project is glorious and mandatory here. Had Thief been a  product tailor-made for the System Shock and Underworld crowd, it's debatable if that had come to pass much. Too much "Don't think I'm ever going to enjoy this / This is just not going to work / nothing like those games" concerns and all. In the end despite some drastic departures, the game appeared to be universally acclaimed even by fans of the former. Likewise, when it was announced Baldur's Gate was to feature a "real-time" rendition of AD&D of kinds, the Usenet did probably explode like a blood sausage all the same.

 

That can be the flipside of the entire concept of crowd-funding to me; in particular if it encourages significant input over the direction development may take. There's also the additional risk of backlash due to a perception of very specific "promises" not being met (which is totally understandable also on the player's end) -- regardless of the overall quality of the game, which may drive added cautious. I personally find it at least somewhat disheartening for instance that Josh Sawyer as one of the main system designers goes on record of saying that he actually doesn't hugely much like class based character systems -- yet does so mainly out of promise (Infinity Engine games are class based, so class based this will be). I'm fine with classes, btw. Just saying as I'd be curious what the lads had in mind if they were given "free reign". Realistically, any kind of development is a compromise, though. There's a difference between all that and taking quality feedback on board, naturally. Plus, as players actually get to play current Beta builds, it's a bit of a different communication process to fans voicing concerns back on the Bio boards or wherever.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Sven_

[SonicMage117]

I can see what Gromnir is trying to say here...

 

We've seen time and time again, how fans claim to know exactly what they want and then when they finally get it, it's instant regret. Fans are so easily confused and some people just want/need a change not for quality control but just because they simply get bored.

 

This has been proven in many game releases from beta's ajd early access productions. I think it comes down to developers taking what they want from the feedback in that case. For instance, a beta user states exactly what they want, dev tries to fulfill that wish to the upmost integrity, fan isn't happy at launch because dev said "We'll do our best to implement what you are asking" and only delivers 98% of that... and so the fan/backer, in their false sense of entitlement are angry - even though they literally gotwhat they wanted but still wasn't as good as they hoped for. Sadly, it happens all the time and I suppose these people are a great if example of how not to do feedback with.

 

Sometimes it's the most passionate fabs who are the most critical but not in a good or validated way. Just they expect what they want to be realized by the devs and tend to not look at devs as people with dreams too. In that case, as we have seen, the fans can kill a game in even a franchise in the toxicity they stir up from their emotional response.

[Ninjamestari]

 

 

Well maybe some don't know, but I know exactly what I want... and like.

 

 

is a few comic examples o' fans not knowing what they want...

 

[…]

 

listen to fans, but don't trust they know what they want, 'cause chances are they do not.

 

"Fans" is not a homogeneous blog with one opinion. There might be many vocal fans clamouring for something but whether they are a majority, or just a loud (and obnoxious?) minority is hard for the developers to judge. In addition, what fans say they want might not be what they need nor do the develop understand it right:

 

 

 

Look at the date, not a new problem.☹

 

 

My first laugh of the day, thank you for that ^^

 

This is precisely the reason you don't want game devs to listen to the fans, they're all gamers themselves and if they know what they want, chances are we'll want the same thing. I want them to trust their own vision instead of worrying about what the fanbase.

[Messier-31]

Actually it looks like this:

 

http://www.projectcartoon.com/cartoon/3

[kierun]

Actually it looks like this:

 

http://www.projectcartoon.com/cartoon/3

 

The reason I linked the one I did is that is was made in 1973. It is still relevant today so either we are all that dumb or we are not learning… Or, you know, both. ☺

[Boeroer]

There is a big difference though:

 

When it comes to a new product (and you have nothing substancial to show yet, only theories and ideas), then you are right: customers don't really know what they want (yet). Most of the time they don't even know what they really need. They know what they liked so far, but they can't foresee if they like new features A or B - because those are new and unknown until now, not implemented yet and the customer can't imagine if those features are likeable or not. And since most people are a bit neo- and xenophobic by nature they will rather stick to the old stuff. Until they can experience those new things.

 

This is a beta. It's another situation. Here you have some real stuff that's already implemented. You can try it out and then tell if you like it or not. In this case the claim "the customer/fan doesn't know what he wants" doesn't apply. After some playing time most people will exactly know what they like and what not and most will also have proposals that are thought through. They may not be ideal solutions but they are far from idiotic, stupid or uninformed.

 

It's like doing a market research while saying "but never mind the results, the customers are stupid anyways". That's a 100% guarantee to fail with your new product.

 

It's like presenting an idea for a new fragrance that will be made from whale puke - and everybody's like "Yuck!". They don't know that ambra smells very good in very small quantities and you as inventor can say "They don't know yet, they are a bit stupid, but I will show them".

 

But then, when you give out samples and 75% of the customers still say "Yuck! Dude!" then you should change your attitude and improve your product.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Boeroer

[Wormerine]

Still, humans have a history of reacting badly to thing they are not used to. There are plenty examples of works that after some time passed were universally accepted as good or brilliant, while at the time of creation turned people off, because its not what they used to, and yeah, more often than not it was a majority that reacted negatively - both plebs and educated in the subject.

Of course, it also works the other way - you can make something and think world of it, and even gain acclaim, while in really it its kinda s***. World is weird that way.

Whenever fans are right and wrong in their feedback, such feedback should be provided and it is on devs to analyze said feedback and decide whenever it is valid; if fans are complaining about symptoms, while their issue actually comes from much deeper; or if they are plain dumb and want something they are used to, and will in time get converted (or a product will reach its actual audience).

I feel that once again we focus on individual words, while actually arguing for the same thing. I don't think Gromnir ever said that Obs should ignore fans' opinions (though to be honest with his prose, I am never 100% sure) but that they shouldn't change things only because people complained. Similarly, I don't think other people would want Deadfire's design to be purely based on results of a survey.

 

I have been wrong before though... so let the fight go on. I am entertained.

[Ninjamestari]

Most people decide whether they like something or not based on what others seem to like or not. We are social animals and most people aren't really intelligent enough to be capable of any complicated independent thought. The average university student isn't always well versed enough to form accurate abstract understandings of what they want in a game, and they are smarter than about 90% of the population. When you go down to IQ 110 and below you can just forget about any complex original thought, that's about 73% of the population. Medically speaking, an IQ below 85 is considered borderline retardation, and that consists of about 16% of the population. The point is, if you're capable of forming your own opinions and rationally understanding them and have actual reasoning to back your thoughts, you belong to the minority, and you should appreciate the hell out of it and not take it for granted and water it down by believing that anyone can do it. The customer is, drawing from the general population, most of the time, absolutely clueless, and the ones that aren't clueless and actually have a good functional picture of what they want are the exception, not the rule.

 

And I'm not talking about opinions about the smell of whale-puke here, I'm talking about role-playing computer games that are quite complicated and appreciating their intricacies requires a modicum of intellect, where as whale-puke just probably smells really bad because our nervous system is hard-wired to be repulsed by potentially contagious things such as vomit, and the smells that are commonly associated with them. In fact, in order to like the smell of vomit, you'd require quite a bit of mental conditioning to override your natural impulses.

[daven]

Loving the sweeping generalisations of the entire fan base.

[kierun]

 

It's like doing a market research while saying "but never mind the results, the customers are stupid anyways". That's a 100% guanrantee to fail with your new product.

 

 

Never worked for Apple then … ☺

[kierun]

This is a beta. It's another situation. Here you have some real stuff that's already implemented. You can try it out and then tell if you like it or not. In this case the claim "the customer/fan doesn't know what he wants" doesn't apply. After some playing time most people will exactly know what they like and what not and most will also have proposals that are thought through. They may not be ideal solutions but they are far from idiotic, stupid or uninformed.

 

That is a fair and true comment. However, the beta players are not 100% of the fan base and a minority can be very vocal for a thing they want even though a majority of players would want something else. To be fair, having big beta does alleviate the problem (more people, more voices) and makes the game overall better.

 

For example, I am worried that the explosion of multi-classes will make the game boring as everyone will pick the "best" mix (barbarians as far as I know now) to the detriment of other classes. However, I am not a beta player so I shut up because I do not know the details.

[Boeroer]

That's a very good approach.

[SonicMage117]

Most people decide whether they like something or not based on what others seem to like or not. We are social animals and most people aren't really intelligent enough to be capable of any complicated independent thought.

 

True. This is why we have horrible games which are successful in gaming, same reason why horrid movies make millions or dreadful music makes billions. There are hundreds of examples of this, if we are being honest, as it's the same medium (entertainment) which stimulates the same portion of the human brain (the prefrontal cortex).

 

Unfortunately, if a person is on a forum or influenced by other persons elsewhere, they may start to "think" that they could like something that they never wanted. They get lead to thinking "Okay... everyone here at this,place likes it so I must be wrong with what I dislike. Especially if the majority is saying so" only to realize in the end that they were right all along and never should have unknowingly settled for what others wanted. This proves that the minority is often discredited, unfortunately that's the way the world works in this medium but the minority are rarely wrong.

 

 

Also, I have to say that the "Customer is always right" mindset may not apply to the said product in which it's integrity and original form or concept has been compromised/altered by the customer base before or after release in the first place. If a certain person or group of persons asks the devs for a feature, and are not happy with the way it's implemented, that is not the developers fault but only those who suggested it. It is customer entitlment which allows us to shift blame on the creators for giving us what we wanted without because we cannot admit our wrong doings as a customer. What a privilege!

 

I believe I wrote a thread worth writing, the debate is clear proof and I deeply thank all who participated whether agreeing or disagreeing!

Edited January 10, 2018 by SonicMage117

[SonicMage117]

For example, I am worried that the explosion of multi-classes will make the game boring as everyone will pick the "best" mix (barbarians as far as I know now) to the detriment of other classes. However, I am not a beta player so I shut up because I do not know the details.

Not to worry, the information is public and you should be able to give a sound opinion if you attain the knowledge and are comfortable enough to do so.

 

The great thing about this beta is that there are many in-depth videos on YouTube and alot of live streams on other sites so it's not like we as non-beta players are not as knowledgeable or have any less place to give a statement on such features and how they are implemented.

[Gromnir]

 

 

It's like presenting an idea for a new fragrance that will be made from whale puke - and everybody's like "Yuck!". They don't know that ambra smells very good in very small quantities and you as inventor can say "They don't know yet, they are a bit stupid, but I will show them".

 

But then, when you give out samples and 75% of the customers still say "Yuck! Dude!" then you should change your attitude and improve your product.

terrible metaphors.

 

general opinions is never wrong.  did you like?  did you dislike? is no way Gromnir or anybody else can claim your general taste impressions is wrong. duh.  problem is when fans tell your perfume maker how to fix.  

 

your perfume is too perfumy.  oh so helpful, eh? what is developer gonna do with such feedback other than to note the customer didn't like... which is actual helpful in a limited way.  others observe how the perfume smells too much like whale puke, so perhaps add shark pi$$. get a few dozen self appointed amateur perfumers respond to limited early release how the perfume really needs an infusion o' shark pi$$ to improve. if the perfume maker doesn't add more shark pi$$ they is ignoring customers? oh, and by the way, almost as many folks is likely telling the perfumer how the perfume smells too flowery and others is telling the perfumer it is the bestest perfume ever. so the perfumer is hoping to sell to tens o' thousands o' units, and the couple dozen people who regular contribute to their online message boards is significant 'cause? 

 

oh, and aire du vomi is not a new perfume.  is old perfume with alterations made after developer considered Years of messageboard feedback and hard sales and usage data.  so, gonna ignore years o' data and feedback 'cause a few dozen superfans reached a kinda-sorta consensus that more shark pi$$ is what the perfume needs?

 

also, shouldn't need repeat, but... is not individual fans who is stoopid.  many individuals provide useful feedback but such has nothing to do with consensus or whatnot.  message board consensus is not particular significant. idea is not made better by fellow grognard agreement.

 

also equal significant is the recognition, again, that idiocy o' fans collective should not marginalize general impressions feedback.  like and dislike can't be wrong even if folks is misattributing causes. fans don't like playing paladins in the original poe beta? a dislike is not right or wrong.  listen to fans regarding what is specific wrong with the paladin is gonna be confusing and contradictory, but developers should listen.  take advice regarding how to improve the paladin is dubious at best.  even so, general feedback says paladins is unfun and in-game data shows people ain't actual playing paladins.  poe developer gonna be satisfied with people not playing paladins?  am hardly suggesting fan opinions 'bout paladins should be ignored.  contrary. never suggested 'cause fans is collective stoopid they should be ignored.  is boeroer conceit which results in such a conclusion and not anything Gromnir said.  how many times has we said in this thread alone, "listen to fans is good"? ignore fans is bad, but listen too much is equal bad as history suggests... and the value from fan feedback is likely not what boeroer believes it to be. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Wormerine]

 

Most people decide whether they like something or not based on what others seem to like or not. We are social animals and most people aren't really intelligent enough to be capable of any complicated independent thought.

True. This is why we have horrible games which are successful in gaming, same reason why horrid movies make millions or dreadful music makes billions. There are hundreds of examples of this, if we are being honest, as it's the same medium (entertainment) which stimulates the same portion of the human brain (the prefrontal cortex).

Not really that important to discussion but I have to disagree. Certainly, there is an element of social pressure and exposure but I really don’t believe it’s as simple as that. Many people will like movies, music and games, which are hated by people actually interested in them. Yes, they can like them because someone they like likes it, or they pretend to like it, or they grew up with it. However, that would suggest that enough marketing and manipulation of audience should lead to success. And while marketing is important not many products really stick. Also solving the issue of people liking “bad stuff” should be as simple as introducing them to the “good” stuff. But it doesn’t work that way.

 

Media can fill different roles in peoples lifes. While complete lack of balls in AssCreed games bores me to death, another individual, which treats the medium more casually and doesn’t put much thought into it finds it a nice, relaxed way to spend an evening. Nice graphic, animation, easy combat, boxes to be ticked off. I can try to introduce to people films with great characters, cinematography and scripts but they will get annoyed, because they don’t know what is happening after spending 10 minutes of the run time on a phone. I can talk all I want about brilliance of Beethoven or Mahler symphonies, how personal they are, how innovative, how elegant but complain “I can’t dance (aka. move my butt back and forth while being drunk) to it”... is valid. Some people don’t look for complexity, or difficult choice or to be stimulated emotionally when playing a game. They watch transformers movies for some explosions, noise and Something more might break movie for them. Hey, I don’t have much appreciation for food. Put a really fancy dish in front of me, and I probably won’t appreciate it, as I want my food to be convinent and quick&easy to consume. It’s just not something, which holds my value to me.

[Ninjamestari]

However, that would suggest that enough marketing and manipulation of audience should lead to success.

 

I'm sorry, but I just had to pick this one up. Which planet do you live on exactly? I mean, here on Earth, among our species who are called humans, enough marketing and manipulation of audience can make you a ****ing dictator 

Edited January 10, 2018 by Ninjamestari

[Wormerine]

 

However, that would suggest that enough marketing and manipulation of audience should lead to success.

 

 

I'm sorry, but I just had to pick this one up. Which planet do you live on exactly? I mean, here on Earth, among our species who are called humans, enough marketing and manipulation of audience can make you a ****ing dictator 

A right marketing, of a right product, at a right time yeah. Better to make noise than not. It is a factor and an important one but not the only or main factor. I am opposing to the idea that people like “bad” things just because they are widely marketed or popular but that they provide something they want.

[injurai]

What if Pillars 3 is a mobile game?

[Ninjamestari]

 

 

However, that would suggest that enough marketing and manipulation of audience should lead to success.

 

I'm sorry, but I just had to pick this one up. Which planet do you live on exactly? I mean, here on Earth, among our species who are called humans, enough marketing and manipulation of audience can make you a ****ing dictator 

A right marketing, of a right product, at a right time yeah. Better to make noise than not. It is a factor and an important one but not the only or main factor. I am opposing to the idea that people like “bad” things just because they are widely marketed or popular but that they provide something they want.

 

 

Not all people, but a large enough majority that simply cannot tell the difference. Judging a movie isn't a simple process, remember how even a bad film could impress you as a kid simply through bombastic musics and powerful visual stimuli, and you didn't really understand what was going on? Most people never learn to see into the inner beauty of a story, and when asked on their preference, they simply like what they perceive to be the safe option that doesn't lead into being ridiculed. I understand that it's a difficult concept to accept, it took me a while myself to understand that most of the things I take for granted and feel as easy as breathing are far from obvious to the ordinary folk, but once I began to have more dealings with other people and opened up to the world, I found that people in general are incredibly lost with EVERYTHING. Just be approachable when dealing with the so called ordinary man, don't be judgemental towards them when they confess that they don't know or understand something, genuinely try to explain in common terms what you're talking about, and once they begin to trust you they'll open up and you can learn just how little they actually know and understand. It's an eye opening experience that helps you to appreciate not only the gift of mind that you have received as a birth-right, but also the enormous struggle the simple minded ordinary people face in this ever more complex world we live in.

Edited January 10, 2018 by Ninjamestari

[SonicMage117]

I figured we as a people would be wise enough to see past marketing when it comes to games industry. How many times have we seen an E3 trailer which maliciously misrepresents a game before release? Knowledgeable and experienced people who are the hardcore fans/gamers will see past this while a small minority of people will actually believe they will get what's being marketed. Same could be said about a movie trailer or a 2-3 song ep which is chosen to represent a larger product.

 

As both a formulative and accumulated result, as one matures, the marketing tactics become irrelevant and less impending on their economic decisions. It's as if we see these marketing as just deeds of business tactics and less of evil works behinds the scenes trying to trick people. And why should we? I mean, it is a business and they have to eat so it would make sense to see this as a care to make their product look cooler than it really is. Thing is that we have apps like YouTube to do our own research. I would never blame the developer and publisher for making their product appeal to me if I didn't do proper research before spending the bees on it.

 

As far as indopemic penial implantation and psychological hypnoticism goes... The myth of subliminal messages has always been quite interesting to me, I admit, though I never had seen it to be proven but only paranoia among the anti-corporate trend. I think it may just be a case of the weaker minded being angry for being taken advantage of in prior transactions/purchases which they allowed theirselves to be fearlessly subjected to.

 

But aye, just me willy opinion, take it with a grain of sand for I myself is admittedly an ocean of trouble. I knew I shouldn't had eaten those beans

[Wormerine]

I figured we as a people would be wise enough to see past marketing when it comes to games industry. How many times have we seen an E3 trailer which maliciously misrepresents a game before release? Knowledgeable and experienced people who are the hardcore fans/gamers will see past this while a small minority of people will actually believe they will get what's being marketed. Same could be said about a movie trailer or a 2-3 song ep which is chosen to represent a larger product.

Sure, but how many times have you been fooled by those before? I have. Went to see a movie because trailer looked really really cool (cough Watchmen cough), got exited for games based on scripted trailer or promises. Once one generation gets wiser, the new one will follow. If some tricks will become obsolete, someone will come up with new ones.

 

There is no doubt marketing works. Just being familiarised with a product ties you to it. When offered to go to a movie, will you choose to see one you never heard about or something more familiar? Probably the 2nd one.

[SonicMage117]

Same but as the saying goes "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." We as consumers do not repeat the same mistakes twice (usually, hopefully).

 

As to what movies appeal to me enough to spend hard-earned money on, it really depends to what is relatable to me. As like I treat me games on me jiffers, if a game or movie has an actor/actress or a character I dig, I'll likely be interested. Whether that may suffer as a consequence of familiarity is unknown but please note this value also applies to a new IP.