Casters are still slow...

[theBalthazar]

A... Simple... exemple !

 

Battle against Titan. (Mini boss ?)

 

My wizard try a "expose vulnerabilities" (6+2 seconds now...)

 

I finished the fight after 10 seconds.

 

Absolute gain (if that does not miss ...) : 2 seconds.

 

In short : It was useless.

 

It is -urgent- to look into the matter...

Edited December 22, 2017 by theBalthazar

[dunehunter]

I just feel that the more Min-Max we dig into melee class combos, the further it left casters behind...

[AndreaColombo]

Casters are way too slow.

 

Ciphers are suffering a lot from it, as they’re generally better off auto-attacking than casting from a DPS standpoint.

 

Summoned Weapons are entirely useless unless they are made to be fast cast. As it is, combat’s over by the time they’ve been summoned.

 

Evokers are only good when they use fast cast stuff like the Minoletta spells.

[-dib-]

Evokers are only good when they use fast cast stuff like the Minoletta spells.

Yeah, I made an Evoker who primarily used the Minoletta spells, all his other damage spells felt pretty unnecessary. He still fell way behind my other strikers in damage done though (a glass cannon Devoted/Assasin focusing on hit and run tactics and a gun slinging Devoted/Sharpshooter).

[MaxQuest]

Agreed. Spellcasting is still horrendously slow.

 

I understand that the idea was to make some AoE damaging spells have BAMF effect and balance them out via long casting time and a reliable interruption system. But I don't get why this affected the majority of spells and powers.

 

Spending 6+2s for a chance to charm the target for the base 6s doesn't sound like a good deal.

Imho making single-target cc and buffs of 1.5-2s casting duration and their AoE counterparts of 3s wouldn't hurt. 

And similar thing for summoned weapons: 6s => 1s (and even instant with a new talent)

[Heijoushin]

I just feel that the more Min-Max we dig into melee class combos, the further it left casters behind...

 

You have a point there. The melee classes have so much synergy, but the spellcaster tend to work in isolation. Perhaps we need a few more general spell-caster talents that work across spell classes? 

 

I wouldn't mind the slow speed if spells were more powerful overall.

 

Also, damn those Lagufaeth who always paralyze dart my wizard whenever he starts casting anything... 

Edited December 22, 2017 by Heijoushin

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Agreed. Spellcasting is still horrendously slow.

 

I understand that the idea was to make some AoE damaging spells have BAMF effect and balance them out via long casting time and a reliable interruption system. But I don't get why this affected the majority of spells and powers.

 

Spending 6+2s for a chance to charm the target for the base 6s doesn't sound like a good deal.

Imho making single-target cc and buffs of 1.5-2s casting duration and their AoE counterparts of 3s wouldn't hurt. 

And similar thing for summoned weapons: 6s => 1s (and even instant with a new talent)

 

 

The duration on Cipher charms (whisper of treason, puppet master) are actually ten seconds, not six; when you run the math though and adjust for misses and grazes (vs. equivalent defense etc.), the expected duration does work out as less than the cast+recovery time, so you're literally taking yourself out of the fight for longer than you're taking the enemy. The math on that does change a bit once you adjust for dexterity, intelligence, etc., but it's still crap.

 

Compare with the first game where Whisper of Treason also had a ten second base duration, but a "fast" casting time (which I believe was a little over two seconds in practice).   To get a comparable ratio of cast time to duration, Whisper would need a duration of over thirty seconds in Deadfire!

 

And then you have the problem that a thirty second charm effect is just crazy long (especially after Intelligence is figured in) and functionally game-ending (especially when cast on players). So you can't just multiply the durations out because then it's too powerful.

 

Personally, I think a lot of cipher powers specifically need to be returned to fast/instant cast (Ciphers have to build up focus anyway; they're already casting far less than the ex-vancians in Deadfire). This is especially true for the crowd control powers (for the reasons above). 

 

Past that, for the ex-vancians. . . they need to go back through and, for each power and spell, decide whether it falls in the "this is a standard every fight bread and butter kinda thing" (i.e., minor missiles, summoned weapons, etc.) or the "this is a decisive spell that you bust out for boss fights or the big closer in a standard fight" (i.e., Ningauth's Shadowflame). First category needs to be relatively quick and easy; save the long cast durations for the second category.

 

 

Oh and give people who aren't wizards a way to generate Concentration. 

Edited December 22, 2017 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[JerekKruger]

Agreed and subbing to this thread.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Agreed. I'll go even further. Too many spells and too much of the spellcasting become meaningless tardy bursts of confetti in a flurry of hectic melee.

 

Melee classes are like sharks, and spellcasters are like sharksuckers:

Edited December 22, 2017 by IndiraLightfoot

[Katarack21]

Fighter/mage using summoned weapons still near useless due to cast times. Am sad panda.

[IndiraLightfoot]

This is definitely a very major issue. They've gone through humongous workloads to create all the magic systems, the effects, the classes, and add to that cool bombs etc.

But if all that jazz has no real impact, it's all for nought.

 

So, how can this be resolved?

Something drastic needs to happen, for starters.

 

A basic and radical starting point could be no casting time whatsoever, but keep recovery times (although shortened in select cases). 

All the fun spells and bombs are there. It's high time to see them have an impact and get used a lot.

 

So, double the amount any spell can be cast per encounter or something along that line.

With grazes being back in, casters need a huge pick-up.

[Katarack21]

 

Agreed. Spellcasting is still horrendously slow.

 

I understand that the idea was to make some AoE damaging spells have BAMF effect and balance them out via long casting time and a reliable interruption system. But I don't get why this affected the majority of spells and powers.

 

Spending 6+2s for a chance to charm the target for the base 6s doesn't sound like a good deal.

Imho making single-target cc and buffs of 1.5-2s casting duration and their AoE counterparts of 3s wouldn't hurt. 

And similar thing for summoned weapons: 6s => 1s (and even instant with a new talent)

 

 

The duration on Cipher charms (whisper of treason, puppet master) are actually ten seconds, not six; when you run the math though and adjust for misses and grazes (vs. equivalent defense etc.), the expected duration does work out as less than the cast+recovery time, so you're literally taking yourself out of the fight for longer than you're taking the enemy. The math on that does change a bit once you adjust for dexterity, intelligence, etc., but it's still crap.

 

Compare with the first game where Whisper of Treason also had a ten second base duration, but a "fast" casting time (which I believe was a little over two seconds in practice).   To get a comparable ratio of cast time to duration, Whisper would need a duration of over thirty seconds in Deadfire!

 

And then you have the problem that a thirty second charm effect is just crazy long (especially after Intelligence is figured in) and functionally game-ending (especially when cast on players). So you can't just multiply the durations out because then it's too powerful.

 

Personally, I think a lot of cipher powers specifically need to be returned to fast/instant cast (Ciphers have to build up focus anyway; they're already casting far less than the ex-vancians in Deadfire). This is especially true for the crowd control powers (for the reasons above). 

 

Past that, for the ex-vancians. . . they need to go back through and, for each power and spell, decide whether it falls in the "this is a standard every fight bread and butter kinda thing" (i.e., minor missiles, summoned weapons, etc.) or the "this is a decisive spell that you bust out for boss fights or the big closer in a standard fight" (i.e., Ningauth's Shadowflame). First category needs to be relatively quick and easy; save the long cast durations for the second category.

 

 

Oh and give people who aren't wizards a way to generate Concentration. 

 

Best solutions, IMHO.

[demeisen]

So, how can this be resolved?

Something drastic needs to happen, for starters.

 

​My opinion is still that Vancian-ish casters were not broken in POE1 and did not need to be "fixed".  Tweaked and tuned, sure.  Changed fundamentally, no.

[thelee]

Just casting a dissenting voice that I think spell casting speed (for at least chanters, priests, and wizards; haven't tried druids or chanters yet) seems fine to me now. The addition of grazes is a *huge* boost because it's much less likely that you completely whiff on a spell.

 

Keep in mind that the slow cast of spells is counterbalanced by the fact that you can retarget freely, which is a fairly novel gameplay feature.

 

Again, I haven't played the more dps-heavy druid and wizards or opportunity-cost-laden cipher, so perhaps the damage math doesn't work out too well with the slower casts, just wanted to round out the perspectives.

Edited December 22, 2017 by thelee

[Katarack21]

Keep in mind that the slow cast of spells is counterbalanced by the fact that you can retarget freely, which is a fairly novel gameplay feature.

Even given that, would still leave summoned weapons as a serious problem.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Just casting a dissenting voice that I think spell casting speed (for at least chanters, priests, and wizards; haven't tried druids or chanters yet) seems fine to me now. The addition of grazes is a *huge* boost because it's much less likely that you completely whiff on a spell.

 

Keep in mind that the slow cast of spells is counterbalanced by the fact that you can retarget freely, which is a fairly novel gameplay feature.

 

Again, I haven't played the more dps-heavy druid and wizards or opportunity-cost-laden cipher, so perhaps the damage math doesn't work out too well with the slower casts, just wanted to round out the perspectives.

Yeah, at least I did exaggerate a bit, tongue in cheek!

 

However, the retargetting is still broken, at least for me, so I can't get it to work, and given the combat speed of enemies (pausing almost doesn't help), I'm not sure retargetting ever will be a *thing*. And grazes *well, thank the lord for your small grazes ( ) * but as long as the casting times are so slow, and melee classes benefitting from grazes as well, I'm not optimistic about the impact of spells in combat. I reckon, something big needs to be done. Tweaking time is over.

[AndreaColombo]

Honestly, why would I take a caster who can only use 2 spells per level with a long casting time (and run the risk of being interrupted and lose the spell) when a full party of melee characters can mop the floor much more efficiently?

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

Best solutions, IMHO.

 

 

 

 

 

 

When I first heard them describe the longer cast times, what I thought they were planning was, like, a new, fifth, extra-long casting time (say, instead of fast/average/slow/very slow, fast/average/slow/very slow/"ritual"), that the very top end "closer" spells would have, and then in a given fight you could try to cast a Big Epic Ritual or the enemy would try to cast a Big Ritual and you'd have to scramble to interrupt or counter it before it went off.

 

Something like that could be amazing. Have a little popup appear above a character's head ("Llagufaeth has begun casting a Ritual!") like the current floating "No Pen" text, so it would pop out of the combat log spam. Could make combat very reactive and awesome.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Wizard Styles]

I'm not convinced there's a problem with long casting times in general.

 

Many of the spells that have persistent effects are good. Beckoner and Lifegiver are two of the best subclasses imo, and their summons and healing AoEs take a while to get up.

 

Conversely, I don't use a lot of the attack abilities that martial characters get because it seems infinitely more efficient to use the resource points on self-buffs instead. Which is a problem very similar to the one many offensive spells have.

 

I agree that a lot of offensive spells can't be scaled up in power sufficiently to be worth it, though. It'd make combat way too swingy.

[Clean&Clear]

Agreed. Spellcasting is still horrendously slow.

 

I understand that the idea was to make some AoE damaging spells have BAMF effect and balance them out via long casting time and a reliable interruption system. But I don't get why this affected the majority of spells and powers.

 

Spending 6+2s for a chance to charm the target for the base 6s doesn't sound like a good deal.

Imho making single-target cc and buffs of 1.5-2s casting duration and their AoE counterparts of 3s wouldn't hurt. 

And similar thing for summoned weapons: 6s => 1s (and even instant with a new talent)

 

Pls no. Making spells cast fast adds even more to the speedy combat issue. If the problem is that casting a spell takes more than half of the combat and then the spell is over too soon, just make the combats last longer in general and make spell effects last longer and generaly make spells more rewarding. Not saying spells don't need some balancing, just don't make everything cast in a blink of an eye, it would feel unrewarfing and bland.

[MaxQuest]

Pls no. Making spells cast fast adds even more to the speedy combat issue. If the problem is that casting a spell takes more than half of the combat and then the spell is over too soon, just make the combats last longer in general and make spell effects last longer and generaly make spells more rewarding. Not saying spells don't need some balancing, just don't make everything cast in a blink of an eye, it would feel unrewarfing and bland.

^ Slow Mode, BAM!)

 

Or it's easier to decrease all weapon damage by a factor of 2, and increase the duration of buffs and cc effects?

 

Btw regarding unrewarding: pssst, I know a few slow spells

Edited December 22, 2017 by MaxQuest

[AndreaColombo]

EDIT: Not all spells need to be fast cast. Some can have longer casting times; just not 6s. 6s is an eternity. I wouldn’t cast a Fireball if it took 4s, cause I can probably roll a Barbarian that deals more damage than the Fireball with less liability in that time—but 4s would make more sense.

Edited December 22, 2017 by AndreaColombo

[drchocapic]

Yeah I've been playing around with some wizard builds recently and the problem with most big spells is still the same : by the time casting is done, the fight is pretty much over. When it takes 6 to 9 seconds (or more) to throw out a big buff/debuff or AoE damage spell, your contribution should equal what other members of the group can achieve in that time, which it currently does not.

 

Some offensive spells can be cast pretty fast but then you run into the opposite issue by running out of spells pretty much immediately only to have to rely on your weapon for the rest of the fight. In that case, you might as well substitute the wizard for a weapon-focused damage dealer which will perform much better in the end.

 

There is no simple solution to the current "caster problem" but I really think that the very limited spell selection we get to pick by levelling is a huge part of the balancing issue. The lack of variety, both in situations met and spell selection, kills pure casters at the moment.

[dunehunter]

 

Pls no. Making spells cast fast adds even more to the speedy combat issue. If the problem is that casting a spell takes more than half of the combat and then the spell is over too soon, just make the combats last longer in general and make spell effects last longer and generaly make spells more rewarding. Not saying spells don't need some balancing, just don't make everything cast in a blink of an eye, it would feel unrewarfing and bland.

^ Slow Mode, BAM!)

 

Or it's easier to decrease all weapon damage by a factor of 2, and increase the duration of buffs and cc effects?

 

Btw regarding unrewarding: pssst, I know a few slow spells

I voted for downtune weapon damage than boost casters. Make spells faster just fasten the combat pace, which against devs original design.

Edited December 22, 2017 by dunehunter

[AndreaColombo]

That would merely introduce gratuitous unfun nerfing instead of addressing the actual problem. Melee combat is fine and it is fun. It is not its fault that spells are unappealing; it should not be changed on that account. Spells are the problem; spells should change.

 

6s and 3s are too much. We could try something shorter (e.g 4s and 2s respectively) without being necessarily fast cast (except summoned weapons, of course; those need to be fast cast.)

Edited December 22, 2017 by AndreaColombo