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Casters are still slow...


theBalthazar

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This may be presumptious of me, but already in PoE1, I had this nagging feeling that the reason why all baddies bumrushed my party (I basically mean that they move unnaturally fast in order to home in on my party members) is that time equals potential damage to baddies. Somehow, the way combat works (it's the same in Deadfire) engine-wise, is that the AI's first and foremost defence against player input (==trying to damage baddies) is speed, not only the quick movement during combat, but having everything revolve around recovery times (linked to animated action? I'm not sure how much though). If you take away casters' abilities to be CC masters with great afflictions and accuracy, this speed-based combat can only benefit fast melee classes on the player side.

If the pivot of the combat was some other mechanic, then casters would have an easier time. So, reducing recovery times is interesting, but I think this speed basis for combat needs to be checked out as well, for the sake of casters' and spells with longer casting times.

Edited by IndiraLightfoot

*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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Let's make some summary on the issues of casters so far, shall we?

King of cc crown in poe 1 is still in debate between chiper(mind block, silent scream, amplified wave), druid (storms, overwhelming wave, ...) and wiz. Anyway +1 for the resume

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I'd also add the change from 50% crits to 25% crits, since that also reduced effective spell and CC durations.

 

CC spells are caught in a bind; you can't increase their durations much longer than they already are because then if players get hit with them they freak out.

 

Problem is with the increased cast time it's often pointless to cast them now. Mathematically casting Whisper of Treason takes you out of the fight longer than the charm effect will take out an enemy.

Edited by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy
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I installed the linux version of the beta today and tried some more casters.

 

Did a Nature Godlike single class Evoker and used an empowered version of Minoletta's Concussive Missiles. At least that cast was VERY powerful (12 projectiles each causing an AoE explosion). ;)

 

It's a 3-sec cast and thus doesn't feel awfully slow. But once you touch the 6-sec spells (see Fireball) it becomes tedious business.

 

The balance between melee and casting got better since the weapons' recovery times got fixed, but casting still feels sluggish and is no fun.

Deadfire Community Patch: Nexus Mods

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Nope.

 

Because, this is not only Wizard... But Druid, cipher, all casters.

 

The problem is general with casters.

 

  • Bring melee back to a reasonable power level, like dual wielding being superior to other style. Here is a good example shows that the weapon system is unbalanced. https://forums.obsid...and-comparison/

     

 

I am not agree with the "problem" of melee characters.

 

Like Andrea said, melee characters are perfect. This seems to be "ok". If I am worse than my best friend, we cannot down my best friend at my level. It is me the problem not him^^

 

Casters are the problem. No need to nerf physical characters.

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Well, I didn't say there wasn't a problem across all casters, only trying to point out at least one possible solution. Maybe it could inspire something similar across other caster classes. I've always felt priest and druid spells were a bit too generic in their spell abilities. Maybe a few deity specific spells that the priests would cast faster, some kind of religious predilection for fire spells for Magran followers, etc. I am sure there could be something similar with other casters.

 

Not that I am for making spell casters in general more complex, but clearly for some reason Wizards seem to be a focus of unnecessary complexity.

 

But if this is an RPG, then it seems RPG style solutions would be preferable to abstract or simply tactical solutions.

 

Although there is nothing intrinsically RPG relevant about this whole "Empower" thingy. Maybe include an accelerated casting speed as part of that goofy ability/skill/ mode/whatever it is.

 

Or not. What do I know? Like others here, just trying to think of ideas to help.

 

Joe

Edited by JFutral
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Nope.

 

Because, this is not only Wizard... But Druid, cipher, all casters.

 

The problem is general with casters.

 

  • Bring melee back to a reasonable power level, like dual wielding being superior to other style. Here is a good example shows that the weapon system is unbalanced. https://forums.obsid...and-comparison/

     

 

I am not agree with the "problem" of melee characters.

 

Like Andrea said, melee characters are perfect. This seems to be "ok". If I am worse than my best friend, we cannot down my best friend at my level. It is me the problem not him^^

 

Casters are the problem. No need to nerf physical characters.

Yeah, I really fear for Deadfire if they decide to nerf melee classes and make melee slower and clunkier (bar baddies' movement speed). That would be a big mistake.

Clearly, it's casters that need a lot of attention - we need a system for casters that is fast enough, fun enough, varied enough and intuitive enough.

Edited by IndiraLightfoot
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*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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Yeah, I really fear for Deadfire if they decide to nerf melee classes and make melee slower and clunkier (bar baddies' movement speed). That would be a big mistake.

Clearly, it's casters that need a lot of attention - we need a system for casters that is fast enough, fun enough, varied enough and intuitive enough.

 

 

 

I suspect implementing MaxQuest's proposed recast of additive/multiplicative Might might help a lot with melee overpower, without need for many additional changes to melee past that. I could be wrong because this is based more on what I've read than on personal playtesting, but I get a sense that the things overbalancing melee combat right now are mostly

 

1) Multiplicative might stacking with other multiplicative bonuses, so that a few specific class combos (barbarians with Frenzy) end up really really powerful, and

 

2) Dual-weild still having a 50% speed bonus despite the changes to the DR/AR/Penetration system such that dual weilding no longer needs a huge bonus to be useful (as it's no longer negatively impacted in the same way by DR).

 

Then combine those with the problems casters are facing (long cast times, dramatically limited power selection, etc.) and that's the difference. Melee's effectively been lightly buffed while casters have effectively been hugely nerfed, net effect is a relatively huge preference for melee.

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I'm sure it was Boeroer who said in a post that melee characters have lots of working systems that just, well, work, whereas casters only have time to cast and perhaps hit with one or two offensive spells before combat is over (and usually people play with under-equipped parties.)

What it boils down to is this:

-Melee character: You pick your talents, you give it a fitting/preferred/devoted weapon, and you just click "attack". Then, when baddie is defeated, lasso melee characters, and click on a new baddie, and then rinse and repeat.

-Caster: You pick a small number of spells and then talents. Combat ensues, and you cast your offensive spell, trying to target the fast-moving enemy (Sure, you're welcome to retarget, but the clock's ticking, and you may miss. It's like ten times harder.

 

In order to compensate the casters for their huge disadvantage, you definitely need reliable spells with impactful effects - they need oomph you can repeat over and over. In PoE1, CC casters were reliable and the effects were very impressive (They still can't measure up to AD&D or D&D 3.0-3.5 wizards, for instance, but they were formidable.) Minimum for Deadfire, would be casters that can cast a plethora of spells and do it reliably, and to great effect. Retargetting and empower aren't even small mercies, offensively. These abilities have very little effect on combat, since it lasts for 10-20 secs (Remember, casters compete with melee characters that you lasso and click on enemy and then repeat.)

Edited by IndiraLightfoot

*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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Obsidian should think first about the player and less about balancing. 9s casting time is a no-go sign for me. There is no fun in watching a casting animation (and being interrupted). It could be accepted for some exceptionals spells that have a big impact on the fight but not for half of them.

It's a game first and it should remain fun.

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-Melee character: You pick your talents, you give it a fitting/preferred/devoted weapon, and you just click "attack". Then, when baddie is defeated, lasso melee characters, and click on a new baddie, and then rinse and repeat.

 

 

That's how it works in D&D. In PoE martial classes have active abilities that you use. This is in fact the reason to lower party size to 5, there's many more thing happening in battle.

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Vancian =/= per rest.

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Obsidian should think first about the player and less about balancing. 

And what if balancing is thinking about the player?

 

I feel like lots of you are better players than I am, because I have to problems with casting majority of my spells. I am yet to encounter 9s spell. 

 

With changes to melee speed the whole casting feels much better IMO. I could use a faster casting time on magic weapons. Playing with strengh based wizard, and he performs really well after initial couple seconds of buffing.

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Bringing down cast times on more spells makes sense to me, but I also feel like weapon damage is maybe a bit high right now. I don't think weapons should be any slower but it seems like they could do with a bit of a damage decrease. That said I'm not seeing any fights last only 10-15 seconds?

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Weapons are fine, though some single weapon(especially ability for fighters) and 2-handers could use a tuneup to compete more with dual-wield. The issue is fundamentally one of long cast times for not much of an effect.

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If you want dynamise battle, 10-15 seconds it is perfect for Casual-normal-Veteran modes. For trash mobs. (A little more for a boss ?...)

 

No need "Original Sin battles" of 10 minutes for each fight.

 

Obsidian wants to make his game more fluid (slow mode out, faster if you understand the system of penetration and accuracy) and more strategic (Inspirations/afflictions etc). It is a conscious choice of them.

 

PotD is the mode for hardcore players (like us). It is a challenge for "optimal" players.

 

But I do not think they will adjust finely this mode now. At the moment, perhaps more the time to see the "main lines" really failing ? (like cast time of the casters... : p)

Edited by theBalthazar
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Eh I don't think 10-15 seconds would feel good on anything except maybe easy or really trashy fights in normal. I'm not an amazing player so I usually stick to Veteran and if every fight would be that length it would just feel pretty trivial no matter how well designed it might be. I think the average fight for me right now takes about 60-90 seconds in total and that feels good. I get to cast plenty of spells and use a number of abilities.

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In PoE 1, a rogue can do like 80+ damage per swing in late game with gears. But now in PoE 2 u can do even more damage with, for example, a Helwalker/Soul Blade. And you have only access to exceptional gears. And this is only at level 7-9. If you have got higher level abilities, for example Deathblow, your damage gonna rocket higher.

Edited by dunehunter
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Eh I don't think 10-15 seconds would feel good on anything except maybe easy

 

 

POE1 in PoTD = 90 % of the fights under 15-20 seconds for me. Glass canon style obviously. (Without tank) I don't count the pause time (Ingame time only).

 

So with POE2, with a full damage system, 15 seconds is totally normal actually.

 

The greatest approach is mini-boss approach (Ghoul, sparkmaster, Twins by fire Joined etc.). Like original Sin. With that, you have longer battle more frequently, with less trash mobs.

 

Also, don't forget : this is my warning : We are hardcore gamer. So 15 seconds for us, guys who redone the first game 10 000 times, it is more for others players.

 

I remember that my first part in the normal mode of POE1, I had more difficulty than my last parts in PoTD. We master perfectly the wheels and all the mechanics...

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Adopting MaxQuest’s proposal for damage coefficient (while restoring MIG) would probably mitigate melee combat reasonably. No need for more nerf; applying multiple fixes to the same issue is typically a bad idea.

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Eh I don't think 10-15 seconds would feel good on anything except maybe easy

 

POE1 in PoTD = 90 % of the fights under 15-20 seconds for me. Glass canon style obviously. (Without tank) I don't count the pause time (Ingame time only).

 

So with POE2, with a full damage system, 15 seconds is totally normal actually.

 

The greatest approach is mini-boss approach (Ghoul, sparkmaster, Twins by fire Joined etc.). Like original Sin. With that, you have longer battle more frequently, with less trash mobs.

 

Also, don't forget : this is my warning : We are hardcore gamer. So 15 seconds for us, guys who redone the first game 10 000 times, it is more for others players.

 

I remember that my first part in the normal mode of POE1, I had more difficulty than my last parts in PoTD. We master perfectly the wheels and all the mechanics...

If that's only unpaused time then sure, that sounds more reasonable. Though I do think that, with all else equal, the encounters would benefit from being longer than Pillars 1, because that hopefully implies that the encounters are more interesting and require more tactical consideration.

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If that's only unpaused time then sure, that sounds more reasonable. Though I do think that, with all else equal, the encounters would benefit from being longer than Pillars 1, because that hopefully implies that the encounters are more interesting and require more tactical consideration.

Not necessarly. If you don't get to utilize your skills per encounter then sure - something is off. For me thats not the case. Longer encounters would mean just staring at people hitting each other for longer, as I would be out of resources anyway. BG combat was very brief as well. You kill enemy or they kill you.  

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If that's only unpaused time then sure, that sounds more reasonable. Though I do think that, with all else equal, the encounters would benefit from being longer than Pillars 1, because that hopefully implies that the encounters are more interesting and require more tactical consideration.

Not necessarly. If you don't get to utilize your skills per encounter then sure - something is off. For me thats not the case. Longer encounters would mean just staring at people hitting each other for longer, as I would be out of resources anyway. BG combat was very brief as well. You kill enemy or they kill you.

Well yeah I don't think many should be that long. But 10-20 seconds of combat isn't getting there. That's a handful of spells or a couple abilities and a few auto attacks.

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I like what obsidian intend with long cast times but realistically they only have two options if they want casters to still be viable.
Nerf range and weapon damage so that casters can get off multiple spells (Much longer battles) or bin the idea entirely.

 

Damage spells can only be boosted to a certain point, unless we want the potential for our tanks to be instantly killed if we fail to interrupt an enemy spell.
Obviously buff/debuffs should last longer than their cast time

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