SAWYERISM BETRAYED - Might turns back into Strength, Resolve will affect spell damage

[Quillon]

Someone suggested before that Might should be divided in itself so we'd be able to choose what kinda might we are getting or something like that. Now thinking about it; may not be a bad idea if we were to choose between physical might, spiritual might and a combined one that has both to lesser effect, like how multiclassing works. Tho then the question would be which should govern gun damage?

[rjshae]

 

 

My Wizard's might refers to his spiritual power!  Oh but he can also lift tree trunks with his bare hands.

 

Your wizard does self buffing so he/she isn't using pure physical power to lift tree trunks 

 

 

But riddle me this, Batman: How much physical power was he using to lift tree trunks? You can reasonably say "I don't care how much, I just care what he's doing and not how he's doing it," but you can't reasonably tell anyone the answer to that question, because there isn't one. If this were a math problem on a test, the answer would be "Not enough information."

 

Might as well combine Intellect and Might into a single stat called Capability, then just say "Maybe the character is exerting enough power on the wall to destroy it in its current state, or maybe he's using elaborate scientific planning to dissolve the mortar between the bricks using his own concoction of acid by MacGuyvering readily available substances together... it doesn't matter, because he's getting past the obstacle, because he's capable!"

 

"What is he capable of, specifically?"

"... ACCOMPLISHING THINGS! GYAH! WHY DO PEOPLE NOT UNDERSTAND THIS STAT?!"

 

Now, if you'd excuse me, I'm going to go slay some dragons with my high Defeatery stat.

 

At best, abilities are always going to be a simplified abstraction that is useful for creating a coarse simulation. They are a compromise and a simplification of what is in actuality a highly complex set of bodily and mental capabilities. It is easy to find fault with them because they will never simulate the exact physical universe. But that is true of games in general -- they can only provide a rough verisimilitude of the real thing. In the end then, it comes down to what the designer wants to portray. Abilities only provide basic building blocks, an edifice upon which can be erected a slightly more refined simulation provided via features such as skills and feats.

[Blades of Vanatar]

 

 

 

 

If Might made so much sense, explain how Might was constantly used to determine whether or not your character was strong enough to succeed at physical challenges in for example the black and white scenes, or conversations, or whatever?

 

My Wizard's might refers to his spiritual power! Oh but he can also lift tree trunks with his bare hands.

Whoever scripted the interactions, though, ****ed it up.

Ha ha. Lets assume you want to write scripted interaction with option of physical strong character doing something.

Please give me different attribute to use...

Easy. Athletics. That is LITERALLY what Athletics is.

Athletics' been used for situations that'd require agility rather than strength and prolly rightfully so; a fat person is not athletic but can be strong.

Being fat has nothing to do with being athletic.

[MortyTheGobbo]

 

 

 

My Wizard's might refers to his spiritual power!  Oh but he can also lift tree trunks with his bare hands.

 

Your wizard does self buffing so he/she isn't using pure physical power to lift tree trunks 

 

 

But riddle me this, Batman: How much physical power was he using to lift tree trunks? You can reasonably say "I don't care how much, I just care what he's doing and not how he's doing it," but you can't reasonably tell anyone the answer to that question, because there isn't one. If this were a math problem on a test, the answer would be "Not enough information."

 

Might as well combine Intellect and Might into a single stat called Capability, then just say "Maybe the character is exerting enough power on the wall to destroy it in its current state, or maybe he's using elaborate scientific planning to dissolve the mortar between the bricks using his own concoction of acid by MacGuyvering readily available substances together... it doesn't matter, because he's getting past the obstacle, because he's capable!"

 

"What is he capable of, specifically?"

"... ACCOMPLISHING THINGS! GYAH! WHY DO PEOPLE NOT UNDERSTAND THIS STAT?!"

 

Now, if you'd excuse me, I'm going to go slay some dragons with my high Defeatery stat.

 

At best, abilities are always going to be a simplified abstraction that is useful for creating a coarse simulation. They are a compromise and a simplification of what is in actuality a highly complex set of bodily and mental capabilities. It is easy to find fault with them because they will never simulate the exact physical universe. But that is true of games in general -- they can only provide a rough verisimilitude of the real thing. In the end then, it comes down to what the designer wants to portray. Abilities only provide basic building blocks, an edifice upon which can be erected a slightly more refined simulation provided via features such as skills and feats.

 

 

Yeah. There are better ways and worse ways to do attributes, and it varies wildly depending on context. But the way people get hung up on what they "mean" or "represent" or whatever is... they're just numbers.

 

Whether or not dump stats are desirable is up to debate, but traditional RPG strength is the universal dump stat, in many if not most games. D&D protects it by making it prohibitively difficult to fight in melee without it... but you can do it with enough hoop-jumping and use of magic. So many melee-fighting builds are a minigame of "how do I use something other than strength to hit things?". Strength, as traditionally defined, is useless to concepts other than a big bruiser with heavy weapons and armour.

[Lephys]

At best, abilities are always going to be a simplified abstraction that is useful for creating a coarse simulation. They are a compromise and a simplification of what is in actuality a highly complex set of bodily and mental capabilities. It is easy to find fault with them because they will never simulate the exact physical universe. But that is true of games in general -- they can only provide a rough verisimilitude of the real thing. In the end then, it comes down to what the designer wants to portray. Abilities only provide basic building blocks, an edifice upon which can be erected a slightly more refined simulation provided via features such as skills and feats.

 

I understand this. I never said more simulation is always better. And it doesn't quite come down to what the devs want to portray, as much as what they want to do with the attribute values. This type of game is based upon the notions behind table-top gaming. That's kind of what makes an RPG an RPG, as opposed to something else. Your Pong paddle doesn't have stats. Your RPG character does. Why? So you can play a distinct role for that character that you built. The options and values and measurements are there to provide distinctions between characters. The world-building coincides with these values. 

 

*sigh*... to present it another way, what would result from combining all the stats into one stat? Think about the answer to that, and there-in lies the answer to how to use stats effectively.

[JerekKruger]

Athletics' been used for situations that'd require agility rather than strength and prolly rightfully so; a fat person is not athletic but can be strong.

 

Have you ever met good shot put, hammer or discus athlete? They are strong. Athletics isn't just running and jumping.

 

Or for that matter a good higher weight class wrestler. Their sport might not come under the standard umbrella of athletics but to say they aren't athletic would be doing them a great disservice, and they are also brutally strong (even the lighter weight class ones are very strong).

 

Moreover a typical sprinter spends a large proportion of their time lifting weights and, whilst not as good at it as a weightlifter, they are generally very strong.

 

Strength is a key component of athleticism.

[Quillon]

Sure but its been used in PoE for running and jumping and I think of a light muscled agile body when athletics comes up, no offense to heavy weight athletes. And I know/saw very fat people, no one can call athletic, who are extremely strong, pulling trucks etc.

 

Anyway, it would initially feel weird to me but I'm sure I'd get used to it quickly if athletics were to be used for STR checks in Deadfire.

[Ninjamestari]

 

 

My Wizard's might refers to his spiritual power!  Oh but he can also lift tree trunks with his bare hands.

 

Your wizard does self buffing so he/she isn't using pure physical power to lift tree trunks 

 

 

But riddle me this, Batman: How much physical power was he using to lift tree trunks? You can reasonably say "I don't care how much, I just care what he's doing and not how he's doing it," but you can't reasonably tell anyone the answer to that question, because there isn't one. If this were a math problem on a test, the answer would be "Not enough information."

 

Might as well combine Intellect and Might into a single stat called Capability, then just say "Maybe the character is exerting enough power on the wall to destroy it in its current state, or maybe he's using elaborate scientific planning to dissolve the mortar between the bricks using his own concoction of acid by MacGuyvering readily available substances together... it doesn't matter, because he's getting past the obstacle, because he's capable!"

 

"What is he capable of, specifically?"

"... ACCOMPLISHING THINGS! GYAH! WHY DO PEOPLE NOT UNDERSTAND THIS STAT?!"

 

Now, if you'd excuse me, I'm going to go slay some dragons with my high Defeatery stat.

 

 

 

This hits the nail perfectly. I don't think there really is anything to add to this 

[Katarack21]

 

 

If Might made so much sense, explain how Might was constantly used to determine whether or not your character was strong enough to succeed at physical challenges in for example the black and white scenes, or conversations, or whatever?

 

My Wizard's might refers to his spiritual power!  Oh but he can also lift tree trunks with his bare hands.

 

 

Whoever scripted the interactions, though, ****ed it up.

 

 

Ha ha. Lets assume you want to write scripted interaction with option of physical strong character doing something.

Please give me different attribute to use...

 

You can not. This is exactly what was wrong with that attribute in PoE.

 

None. You use might. But if the character is using spell power from Might instead of stregnth, you write that. You go something like "You glow with pure magic and the bolder is shoved by the force of your power." instead of "You strain your muscles and shove the boulder."

 

The writers didn't do that. They defaulted to Might=Strength. They made the same mistake you are.

[Yosharian]

 

 

 

If Might made so much sense, explain how Might was constantly used to determine whether or not your character was strong enough to succeed at physical challenges in for example the black and white scenes, or conversations, or whatever?

 

My Wizard's might refers to his spiritual power!  Oh but he can also lift tree trunks with his bare hands.

 

 

Whoever scripted the interactions, though, ****ed it up.

 

 

Ha ha. Lets assume you want to write scripted interaction with option of physical strong character doing something.

Please give me different attribute to use...

 

You can not. This is exactly what was wrong with that attribute in PoE.

 

None. You use might. But if the character is using spell power from Might instead of stregnth, you write that. You go something like "You glow with pure magic and the bolder is shoved by the force of your power." instead of "You strain your muscles and shove the boulder."

 

The writers didn't do that. They defaulted to Might=Strength. They made the same mistake you are.

 

 

I would have 0 problems with that actually, good suggestion.  Would require a little coding magic under the hood, though.

[Silent Winter]

 

Ha ha. Lets assume you want to write scripted interaction with option of physical strong character doing something.

Please give me different attribute to use...

 

In Deadfire? Intimidate or Athletics (depending on whether it's physically intimidating someone or using your physical strength to move something heavy).

 

From what we've heard there are going to be very few attribute checks in Deadfire. Most have been replaced by skill checks.

 

Could still end up with the same problem - Intimidate needn't be strongman physical - a wizard could make his hand glow with a "Imma gonna fireball you" , or  a druid might spiritshift and show their fangs/tusks/claws - similar to what was just mentioned by Katarack21 regarding Might in scripted interactions.  That's why there needs to be class-based writing, (or a description of 'Intimidate' that specifically lets you know it means you're beefy).

[Yosharian]

 

 

Ha ha. Lets assume you want to write scripted interaction with option of physical strong character doing something.

Please give me different attribute to use...

 

In Deadfire? Intimidate or Athletics (depending on whether it's physically intimidating someone or using your physical strength to move something heavy).

 

From what we've heard there are going to be very few attribute checks in Deadfire. Most have been replaced by skill checks.

 

Could still end up with the same problem - Intimidate needn't be strongman physical - a wizard could make his hand glow with a "Imma gonna fireball you" , or  a druid might spiritshift and show their fangs/tusks/claws - similar to what was just mentioned by Katarack21 regarding Might in scripted interactions.  That's why there needs to be class-based writing, (or a description of 'Intimidate' that specifically lets you know it means you're beefy).

 

 

Intimidation often has nothing to do with physical strength or any other kind of strength.  Ever seen a cat completely intimidate a dog twice its size?

 

I mean yeah, size is intimidating, but there's more to it than just that.

[SonicMage117]

This was probably due to youtubers and saying that they didn't like how might worked in the first game.

[Ondb]

This was probably due to youtubers and saying that they didn't like how might worked in the first game.

My guess is multiclass system. Creating Fighter/Wizard combo and then one stat is increasing damage of both weapons and spells. Its weird...

[Ninjamestari]

This was probably due to youtubers and saying that they didn't like how might worked in the first game.

 

Don't belittle the issue, a major part of the community hated the Might mechanic the moment they heard of it. This isn't just some "them evil youtubers". I am one of those people, and I'm extremely happy to see that Might is finally gone.

[JerekKruger]

I'm extremely happy to see that Might is finally gone.

 

Josh has said they're thinking of other ways to change Resolve so Might may not be as gone as you hope, and as someone who hates the new Strength/Resolve system I very much hope it isn't.

[Ninjamestari]

Yeah, but you guys hate the new Strenght/Resolve system because you've fought for the Might system from day 1. Might as a concept is inferior, and only the small minority of players who have some personal stake in Might truly share your view. I bet all the might supporters can be found on these forums.

[Sedrefilos]

Yeah, but you guys hate the new Strenght/Resolve system because you've fought for the Might system from day 1. Might as a concept is inferior, and only the small minority of players who have some personal stake in Might truly share your view. I bet all the might supporters can be found on these forums.

Sawyer himself said that he didn't expect so many people to get upset by the change. And he didn't mean this forum here; he doesn't participate here. 

So I guess there many others out there.

My problem personally is that "generifies" the game from a mechanics point of view. I don't know how it'll play, noone knows yet, but the dump stat virus is already planted.

[Guest 4ward]

 

to me, the real issue is the influence of attributes on the abilities. Things like ability damage, duration should IMO be a matter of scaling with level (or perhaps empower as i mentioned earlier) and not be influenced by attrbutes, because that‘s detrimental to combat. Combat and roleplay should be weighted against each other better IMO.

[Nail]

By the way... 

 

If now strength influences melee damage, isn't it a bit stupid if strength affect ranged weapons if that's not bows?

 

Shouldn't there be a constant damage for firearms and wands / rods / scepters, so only attack speed could affect their DPS?

 

Or I'm missing something?

[dunehunter]

By the way... 

 

If now strength influences melee damage, isn't it a bit stupid if strength affect ranged weapons if that's not bows?

 

Shouldn't there be a constant damage for firearms and wands / rods / scepters, so only attack speed could affect their DPS?

 

Or I'm missing something?

 

Yeah but I afraid if the devs follow more and more common sense (like Strength only affect weapon, constant damage for firearms), the game system will be more and more similar to DND system. I hope they don't change everything to meet the 'common sense'. The Might affect all damage is part of the uniqueness of this game.

[MortyTheGobbo]

By the way... 

 

If now strength influences melee damage, isn't it a bit stupid if strength affect ranged weapons if that's not bows?

 

Shouldn't there be a constant damage for firearms and wands / rods / scepters, so only attack speed could affect their DPS?

 

Or I'm missing something?

 

That is true. But if we go down that rabbit hole, we'll be left only with a subset of melee weapons being affected by strength, making it the common dump stat that it often is.

[Wormerine]

By the way... 

 

If now strength influences melee damage, isn't it a bit stupid if strength affect ranged weapons if that's not bows?

 

Shouldn't there be a constant damage for firearms and wands / rods / scepters, so only attack speed could affect their DPS?

 

Or I'm missing something?

Yeah, I would like to see firearms become stable damage dealers, maybe not the most efficient weapon for someone with massive strength, but a good option for someone with mediocre strength. Or at least I would like to see different weapon “schools” being influenced by different attributes. But I don’t think that is what attributes were designed to accommodate.

[Nail]

Following strength influence, I've mentioned that somewhere before, still - a pity we have no weight system in Pillars...

 

It would be natural if strength affect weight limit, so characters with dumped strength would suffer a lot from that, alas we have no weight...

 

And I don't understand why this basic mechanic (weight) was not implemented in PoE series!

 

I understand that there is PoE I legacy, with already given rules, but in case when every stat matter - there will be no dumped stats.

 

It seems so logical if:

Strength: % melee damage, + fortitude rolls, + max weight limit

Constitution: % health, + fortitude rolls, + max weight limit

Dexterity: % action speed, + reflex rolls, + deflection

Perception: + accuracy, + spell penetration, + reflex rolls, hidden things detection

Intellect: % spell damage, buff / debuff duration, + will rolls

Resolve: % health regeneration, + overall magic resistance, + will rolls

 

Yes, I understand there are many things that are not in game, and probably there won't be any such changes...

 

Still, 20 years ago we had games with almost perfect stat system, why not just improve that...

For instance baldur's gate or fallout - just take that system and make some tweaks.

[MortyTheGobbo]

Weight limit wasn't implemented because it's a pain in the ass with no benefit whatsoever and possibly the worst way to give benefit to strength anyone has ever come up with. Characters with low strength won't suffer from it - their players will, as they have to shuffle equipment around to the stronger characters or stash.

 

There's also no such thing as magic resistance in PIllars. How would it even work?