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SAWYERISM BETRAYED - Might turns back into Strength, Resolve will affect spell damage

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@illathid - Dragonball Z ... Really?! Come on you can do better mate. Personally I never got into it but from the bits that I saw of the super-super-duper-ultra-super-duper super saiyan it's not something I'd want similarities to... But ofc that's just me ...lol

 

I figure most people would be familiar with it so it's an easy shorthand. The point is that shows how increased physical strength allows for more damage with magic/spirit energy.


"Wizards do not need to be The Dudes Who Can AoE Nuke You and Gish and Take as Many Hits as a Fighter and Make all Skills Irrelevant Because Magic."

-Josh Sawyer

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I chuckled at this post from Josh:

 

A wand is a weapon, so Strength.

...A wand is a weapon so it uses Strength...I'm sorry, I should do what with a magical implement? Swing it hard and bash enemies heads with it? Or maybe poke someone's eyes with it?

 

Or should I channel my magic powers into the wand so that it could amplify them into a magic missile? Shouldn't that use Resolve or Intelligence?

Please for the love of immersion do not fix strength and then simply leave wands as a strength based weapon.This should stem for their magic power.

 

"I am going to kill you Harry Potter! I am pointing my want as HARD as I CAN!"

 

What does it have to do with immersion? I have a bigger issue with guns as we know guns don't get more effective with strengh. 

 

Wands a magical. Therefore, they attack with arcane energy. They might be crafter by mages. No one said they draw energy from users magical prowess. Or do you just want to have maxed out weapon and spell damage at the same time without investing extra attribute points as you did in PoE, hmm?

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Wands a magical. Therefore, they attack with arcane energy. They might be crafter by mages. No one said they draw energy from users magical prowess. 

Maybe not, but it's more logical than physical strength.

Or do you just want to have maxed out weapon and spell damage at the same time without investing extra attribute points as you did in PoE, hmm? 

 

Not really, I don't even main a caster, but I hate the silly illogical things, especially when they rise from trying to plug a round hole with a square plug, like splitting Might without much thought so that Resolve is less of dump stat.

Edited by Aramintai
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@illathid - Dragonball Z ... Really?! Come on you can do better mate. Personally I never got into it but from the bits that I saw of the super-super-duper-ultra-super-duper super saiyan it's not something I'd want similarities to... But ofc that's just me ...lol

 

I figure most people would be familiar with it so it's an easy shorthand. The point is that shows how increased physical strength allows for more damage with magic/spirit energy.

 

 

That show is also a ludicrous exaggeration of sheer Willpower trumping all else. It is a bit akin to Resolve, in theory, but it's much more all-encompassing. Basically, they (as well as characters in dozens, if not hundreds, of other animes) manifest their "fighting spirit" in the form of visceral energy. Thus, they can form it into projectiles, shield themselves from attacks (which is also an exaggeration of martial artists utilizing controlled muscle contractions to block incoming blows, which is a real thing), fly, etc.

 

IF you want magic/soul power to work like that in the PoE world, then great. But, the fact that soul power and Resolve exist does not automatically mean that soul power can just do whatever you want it to. That's a very specific design.

 

To be clear, though, Constitution would be "how many punches to the ribs can you take before collapsing?", while Strength would be more "How hard of a hit to the ribs can you take without being knocked down by the blow?" In reality, you cannot measure one without overlapping into the other a bit. In the abstraction of a video game, however, you can. Strength is essentially the pure measurement of your character's ability to generate mechanical force (and/or withstand things via muscular strength... i.e. if something's trying to rip your leg off, but your leg is strong enough to pull in the opposite direction to mitigate the amount of force on your leg).


Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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I chuckled at this post from Josh:

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3807509&userid=17931&perpage=40&pagenumber=9#post478806259

 

 

Will wands use Strength or Resolve to determine their damage?

 

 

A wand is a weapon, so Strength.

...A wand is a weapon so it uses Strength...I'm sorry, I should do what with a magical implement? Swing it hard and bash enemies heads with it? Or maybe poke someone's eyes with it?

 

So you know how magic wands should work, do you?

 

I know magic missiles are coming out of their pointy ends, so magic is involved (if the name magic wand is not clear enough). Are you suggesting that they get powered up by a mighty swing? The mightier the better?  :bat:

 

It's... magic. No explanation is required. :p

 

If you need something semi-logical, choose one:

 

a. Arm strength allows you to control a mightier magic burst from the wand tip without the instrument getting ripped from your hand.

b. It works like an old mercury thermometer; you need to shake it first.

c. Arm muscles act as capacitors to build up a bigger charge.

d. All of the above.

e. None of the above. It's magic. :p

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"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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I have a bigger issue with guns as we know guns don't get more effective with strengh.

 

If you thrust the gun forwards at the same time as firing it you can impart more kinetic energy on the bullet  :biggrin:

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I have a bigger issue with guns as we know guns don't get more effective with strengh.

 

If you thrust the gun forwards at the same time as firing it you can impart more kinetic energy on the bullet  :biggrin:

 

I don't see an issue here - you actually do need some strength to pull the trigger and hold your arm firmly so as not to get injured by recoil. Drawing bows and reloading crossbows requires much strength as well.

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Guest Blutwurstritter

Can you all stop please with the sexual innuendos, this is seriously getting out of hand.

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@illathid - Dragonball Z ... Really?! Come on you can do better mate. Personally I never got into it but from the bits that I saw of the super-super-duper-ultra-super-duper super saiyan it's not something I'd want similarities to... But ofc that's just me ...lol

 

I figure most people would be familiar with it so it's an easy shorthand. The point is that shows how increased physical strength allows for more damage with magic/spirit energy.

 

 

That show is also a ludicrous exaggeration of sheer Willpower trumping all else. It is a bit akin to Resolve, in theory, but it's much more all-encompassing. Basically, they (as well as characters in dozens, if not hundreds, of other animes) manifest their "fighting spirit" in the form of visceral energy. Thus, they can form it into projectiles, shield themselves from attacks (which is also an exaggeration of martial artists utilizing controlled muscle contractions to block incoming blows, which is a real thing), fly, etc.

 

IF you want magic/soul power to work like that in the PoE world, then great. But, the fact that soul power and Resolve exist does not automatically mean that soul power can just do whatever you want it to. That's a very specific design.

 

To be clear, though, Constitution would be "how many punches to the ribs can you take before collapsing?", while Strength would be more "How hard of a hit to the ribs can you take without being knocked down by the blow?" In reality, you cannot measure one without overlapping into the other a bit. In the abstraction of a video game, however, you can. Strength is essentially the pure measurement of your character's ability to generate mechanical force (and/or withstand things via muscular strength... i.e. if something's trying to rip your leg off, but your leg is strong enough to pull in the opposite direction to mitigate the amount of force on your leg).

 

 

Specifically I want someone who is very buff to do more damage with a fireball than some twig armed weakling. I like muscle wizards, the buffer the better. :)

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"Wizards do not need to be The Dudes Who Can AoE Nuke You and Gish and Take as Many Hits as a Fighter and Make all Skills Irrelevant Because Magic."

-Josh Sawyer

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Anyone that has ever fired a gun is familiar with recoil... Basically it's the momentum of the gun which discharges through the body and is equal to the momentum of the bullet. It gives us funny videos such as this too:

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RjBe5jK6SMg

 

Sure, it has very little to do with the damage the bullet actually does but as an abstraction of the "adequacy" of the gun wielder it's workable. Personally I preferred the old school system where strength affected melee damage, carrying capacity and there were strength restrictions on equipment, where dexterity affected aim virtually as well as ability to parry/dodge (which translated into AC back then as the system was simple but still), intellect affected number of spells for mages and so on and so forth... I know some didn't like it but I found it more realistic to what we have in PoE... But as long as the suspension of disbelief isn't too great I can live with it...

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I suppose we could assume that with greater strength you wield guns better and use the more effectively. I would prefer for it to show in shorter recovery, rather than increased damage (same with crossbow), but I suppose that calculating damage for every weapon same way is just more straightforward.

Edited by Wormerine

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I don't see an issue here - you actually do need some strength to pull the trigger and hold your arm firmly so as not to get injured by recoil. Drawing bows and reloading crossbows requires much strength as well.

 

The thing is, whilst true there comes a point where extra strength isn't an advantage. Someone who is weak may indeed struggle with the recoil of a gun, but Worlds Strongest Man competitors aren't at any advantage over a typical infantryman.

 

That said, the same is true of weapons like swords, although the threshold is probably a little higher. My guess would be that the weapon in PoE for which strength is most important is the Warbow.

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 It's... magic. No explanation is required. :p

 

I think you're partially joking, but you'd be surprised how many people firmly believe this.

 

Magic is just fictional science. It still has to be explained,  :yes: . Real things have real reasons for their existence/behavior, and fictional things have fictional ones.

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Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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I suppose we could assume that with greater strength you wield guns better and use the more effectively. I would prefer for it to show in shorter recovery, rather than increased damage (same with crossbow), but I suppose that calculating damage for every weapon same way is just more straightforward.

 

Pong is more straightforward than PoE, but it's also a heckuva lot less interesting. :)

 

I agree that straightforwardness needs to be considered, but function comes before form. If something being more complex better serves the RPG system, then I say do it. Again, though, this requires a sort of viability balancing of the opportunities you're offering to the characters. If you want ranged weaponry, for example, to be a viable option for any character of any class, and you also want melee weaponry or magic weaponry to be viable, then allow the stats to affect each of these three options in interesting ways. There's no reason to offer 3 options to people that are so distinct, then go "Meh, it's more straightforward to just say 'this attribute makes weapons do damage.' " That would be like coming up with classes, starting with the Fighter, then conceiving the Wizard and being like "Okay, all his spells are gonna be just Magic Kick and Magic Slash and Magic Leap." Oh, you've made a whole new class, but then just gone "Meh... they all do damage and cause effects. Who cares. Let's have an attribute called 'Classness' that just increases a bunch of numbers for whatever class you are."

 

If you're gonna make stuff distinct, make stuff distinct.


Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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I suppose we could assume that with greater strength you wield guns better and use the more effectively. I would prefer for it to show in shorter recovery, rather than increased damage (same with crossbow), but I suppose that calculating damage for every weapon same way is just more straightforward.

 

Pong is more straightforward than PoE, but it's also a heckuva lot less interesting. :)

 

I agree that straightforwardness needs to be considered, but function comes before form. If something being more complex better serves the RPG system, then I say do it. Again, though, this requires a sort of viability balancing of the opportunities you're offering to the characters. If you want ranged weaponry, for example, to be a viable option for any character of any class, and you also want melee weaponry or magic weaponry to be viable, then allow the stats to affect each of these three options in interesting ways. There's no reason to offer 3 options to people that are so distinct, then go "Meh, it's more straightforward to just say 'this attribute makes weapons do damage.' " That would be like coming up with classes, starting with the Fighter, then conceiving the Wizard and being like "Okay, all his spells are gonna be just Magic Kick and Magic Slash and Magic Leap." Oh, you've made a whole new class, but then just gone "Meh... they all do damage and cause effects. Who cares. Let's have an attribute called 'Classness' that just increases a bunch of numbers for whatever class you are."

 

If you're gonna make stuff distinct, make stuff distinct.

 

Sure, but in the end PoE is statistic based RPG. Number go up and down. Making the same stat interact with various items in different way makes things more complicated but not in an interesting way - its more difficult to calculate the outcome while the result is pretty much the same. 

 

Lets say we do what I proposed in previous post: For melee weapons "Strength" increases the damage done with weapons as you hit harder. With bows you don't do more damage, but you gain penetration bonus as your arrows come out with more impact. Crossbows and firearms get decreased recovery because you handle them better. Never used any of those weapons but I think it would be more faithful representation of how they work. But in the end all it is about is weapons doing more DPS with with increase in Strength. As the game is heavily abstracted anyway, does it really add anything worthwhile? System as it is now clearly shows how much damage you do with each weapon. WIth seperate system for each weapon comparing effectiveness is just becoming more difficult without adding nuance to the gameplay. So as much as I would like for them to be a bit less abstract, I don't think it would be a good idea to change that.

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One of the things I hated about the original system was the dual use of might to cover both physical and mental damage. Equally hate Barbarians wnting high INT.

 

But I agree having a dump stat is irritating. There could perhaps be threshold-related penalties on all stats as well as the graded increases / reductions. E.g. if you drop a stat below 7, you get penalty x (x being some condition-like penalty). If you drop below 5, you get penalty x and y, that sort of thing.

 

Or just use the D&D standard array solution - nothing below 8 except through racial modifications.

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^ But you don't need a different system for each weapon. You're making it sound 7,000% more complicated than it needs to be. You have melee, and you have ranged. Then within ranged weapons, you have ones that are operated with strength (bows, even though ALL bows in real life don't necessarily gain a bonus from strength, it's close enough. You could even easily have certain bows gain a greater bonus, etc.), and you have things that aren't operated with strength (mechanical launching things like crossbows, and guns.) Maybe, as you said, crossbows and the like get reduced reload time from strength or something. That kind of makes sense, and being able to alter your reload time is a cool thing. Maybe guns get nothing, because you just make them super powerful and slow, and you just use talents and various other things to make them faster and/or more accurate, etc. OR maybe Perception affects all ranged accuracy, and that's just another thing you want but can't have all of.

 

All that is is building the various things that you'd want to be able to affect in a character, in gameplay, into the stats. Wouldn't it be great to be a huge Barbarian guy who can Hulk Smash stuff really hard, but lacks finesse? And vice versa? Wouldn't it be great to be able to do things faster, but not necessarily as effectively each time? Etc. That's kind of what this type of game is all about. And that isn't very complicated, logistically. It's not like we're going to make 4 different stats effect dagger thrusts in a different way than 3 other stats affect hammer swings.

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Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

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A wand is a weapon, so Strength.

Wands a magical. Therefore, they attack with arcane energy. They might be crafter by mages. No one said they draw energy from users magical prowess. Or do you just want to have maxed out weapon and spell damage at the same time without investing extra attribute points as you did in PoE, hmm?

 

 If magical implements are not using the casters energy then why is it only magic casters use them?I guess its just my vision of them but I always thought of them as an item that lets a caster throw out magical energy damage with little cost of their magic reserves,I guess all this time I have been viewing them wrong as I have with light-sabers for decades.I always thought that light-sabers were items of such tremendous mass that no one could even lift hold them up without the force and the Jedi's mind power to move them around.Also,once dropped they would just cut into the ground and be lost forever.LOL way wrong there also!

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^ But you don't need a different system for each weapon. You're making it sound 7,000% more complicated than it needs to be. You have melee, and you have ranged. Then within ranged weapons, you have ones that are operated with strength (bows, even though ALL bows in real life don't necessarily gain a bonus from strength, it's close enough. You could even easily have certain bows gain a greater bonus, etc.), and you have things that aren't operated with strength (mechanical launching things like crossbows, and guns.) Maybe, as you said, crossbows and the like get reduced reload time from strength or something. That kind of makes sense, and being able to alter your reload time is a cool thing. Maybe guns get nothing, because you just make them super powerful and slow, and you just use talents and various other things to make them faster and/or more accurate, etc. OR maybe Perception affects all ranged accuracy, and that's just another thing you want but can't have all of.

 

All that is is building the various things that you'd want to be able to affect in a character, in gameplay, into the stats. Wouldn't it be great to be a huge Barbarian guy who can Hulk Smash stuff really hard, but lacks finesse? And vice versa? Wouldn't it be great to be able to do things faster, but not necessarily as effectively each time? Etc. That's kind of what this type of game is all about. And that isn't very complicated, logistically. It's not like we're going to make 4 different stats effect dagger thrusts in a different way than 3 other stats affect hammer swings.

I really like needing to meet certain strength requirements as the bow damage rises.If you had a magic damage stat you could also tie in larger damage implements with that stat?

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A wand is a weapon, so Strength.

Wands a magical. Therefore, they attack with arcane energy. They might be crafter by mages. No one said they draw energy from users magical prowess. Or do you just want to have maxed out weapon and spell damage at the same time without investing extra attribute points as you did in PoE, hmm?

 

 If magical implements are not using the casters energy then why is it only magic casters use them?

You can throw rods and scepters and wands on your fighter and barbarian as often as you feel like, actually. No rules against it.

Edited by Katarack21
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I hope they make barbarians need intelligence even more, just to annoy those who are obsessed with the 'dumb barbarian' archetype.  :p

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"That rabbit's dynamite!" - King Arthur, Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail

"Space is big, really big." - Douglas Adams

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I hope they make barbarians need intelligence even more, just to annoy those who are obsessed with the 'dumb barbarian' archetype.  :p

 

I also hope that Strength is made to govern spell damage and Resolve physical damage.

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I'd also like to see dexterity renamed to quickness to better represent its functionality :p

 

Let's rename Intellect to "biggening and longening" as well :D

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