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SAWYERISM BETRAYED - Might turns back into Strength, Resolve will affect spell damage

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I don't think anyone has regrets about the the change of the name; more about the change of design approach. I don't have regrets perosonally, I just think it is a backwards move. I'm sure I'll still enjoy the game a lot, but, for me, going back to D&D mentality takes away the "this design will take crpgs, roleplay-wise, to the next level" I was raving about in Pillars 1.

 

EDIT: from my observation so far, I'm given the idea that, for some reason, Obsidian is determined to fix things that weren't broken.

Edited by Sedrefilos
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For me might was always a physical stat. I don't know why people were confused about it. Maybe it's my english? I thought might = strength.

Because Might to most people associates with physical prowess, physical strength. But in POE1 it also represented mental prowess, mental strength. Combine that with years of AD&D indoctrination and you get yourself your average confused player. POE1 further confused things by making Might stat checks purely physical.

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I really hate this. I'm very disappointed in Josh right now. :(

You genuinely feel this strongly about it?

 

There are millions of people dying of thirst and this is all you care about? The name change of a stat on an unreleased game??!"?$%^?&%

 

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AppealToWorseProblems

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Pillars of Bugothas

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The per rest change was already hard for the cipher

This change is another nail in his coffin. He has now two damage stats . The same could be say for the druid.

It's good to remove a dump stats sure.... Well it has to be tested

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If they would have gone the route of "give chars with high RES more concentration points once they get concentration" it would have been great for any caster - especially with the new system of longer cast times and interrupts. At the same time you could have left MIG as it was. I really think this would have been easier to do (in terms of coding) and better. Do the same with PER (low PER = weaker interrupt points, high PER = more interrupt points). If you have 10 points of concentration and get hit by an 11-point-interrupt you fumble. If you have 10 concentration an and are hit by a 5-interrupt you're left with 5 points of concentration. Pretty simple or not? Maybe too complicated...?

 

I also liked the "shrug off afflictions more quickly with high RES" suggestion. You don't even need to balance the game then, because at 10 RES it's no change at all.

I like the idea of bringing Perception and Concentration back to attributes. It helped balance out their value.

 

I'm still tweaking my opinion on what should be done with attributes:

 

Strength (STR) - +3% Melee Weapon/Bow Damage, +2 Fortitude

Constitution (CON) - +5% Health, +2 Fortitude

Dexterity (DEX) - +3% Action Speed, +2 Reflex

Perception (PER) - +1 Accuracy, +2 Reflex

Intellect (INT) - +3% Spell Damage/Magical Implement Weapon Damage/Healing, +2 Will

Resolve (RES) - +6% Area of Effect, +5% Inspiration Duration (Received/Cast), +5% Affliction Duration (Cast), -5% Affliction Duration (Received), +2 Will

 

Deflection should be removed from attributes and applied to armor (heavier armor has higher deflection)

If it HAS to be tied to an attribute it should be CON. It would make DEX too OP.

 

Firearms (and maybe crossbows/arbalests?) will not be affected by Strength. Their base damage and penetration should be higher to compensate, but they take longer to fire/reload.

 

With this spread, STR/INT become dump stats unless you are a hybrid character. Characters focused solely on weapon damage/spell damage will still be able to hit higher damage values than characters who want to do both. Not sure how to solve that problem, honestly.

Edited by CENIC
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Aloth massages his temples, shaking his head.

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EDIT: from my observation so far, I'm given the idea that, for some reason, Obsidian is determined to fix things that weren't broken.

 

That's very much my feeling too. Not just with this change, but with a number of other changes made to the old Pillars mechanics in Deadfire.

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EDIT: from my observation so far, I'm given the idea that, for some reason, Obsidian is determined to fix things that weren't broken.

 

From my observation so far, Obsidian are the only ones working on improving systems others just copy out of pure lazyness and lack of imagination. I think this is a good thing, even if it should mean that they accidently took a step backwards. Which at this point no one can say.

 

I'm really looking forward on how this turns out. And even if it does not turn out that well, I will enjoy the game anyway and will have something to look forward to in PoE3: Seeing what they come up with next.

 

Be a little more adventurous, guys!

 

 

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---

We're all doomed

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Call it might, call it strength, call it OOMPH for all I care.

I'm now willing to back an RPG whose primary stats are:

Oomph: Reflecting one's ability to dish it out.

Ungh: Reflecting one's ability to take a hit.

Grrr: Reflecting one's ability to keep going.

Hmmm: Reflecting one's ability to think things through.

Lalala: Reflecting one's ability to ignore distractions.

and

Ah-ha!: Reflecting one's ability to notice stuff.

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Oomph: Reflecting one's ability to dish it out.

Ungh: Reflecting one's ability to take a hit.

Grrr: Reflecting one's ability to keep going.

Hmmm: Reflecting one's ability to think things through.

Lalala: Reflecting one's ability to ignore distractions.

and

Ah-ha!: Reflecting one's ability to notice stuff.

 

Where can I back that game?

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---

We're all doomed

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That's too bad. I thought the combined Might stat gave this system a distinctive flavor. I guess all the whining paid off for the detractors.

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"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

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EDIT: from my observation so far, I'm given the idea that, for some reason, Obsidian is determined to fix things that weren't broken.

 

From my observation so far, Obsidian are the only ones working on improving systems others just copy out of pure lazyness and lack of imagination. I think this is a good thing, even if it should mean that they accidently took a step backwards. Which at this point no one can say.

 

I'm really looking forward on how this turns out. And even if it does not turn out that well, I will enjoy the game anyway and will have something to look forward to in PoE3: Seeing what they come up with next.

 

Be a little more adventurous, guys!

 

 

 

There is nothing wrong with experimentation, however they had a system that while it had it's flaws it did work.  There is a difference between experimenting to make a better system, and experimenting for experiments sake.

 

To the person who asked if people regret backing, no I personally do not.  The game is in beta and some back and forth changes/controversy are parts of the process.

Edited by Ryvnai

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That's too bad. I thought the combined Might stat gave this system a distinctive flavor. I guess all the whining paid off for the detractors.

Here's the funny thing. though. Precisely nobody over at the backer beta forums had said anything about it, at all. One backer among dozens came with a similar suggestion once in one of the discussion threads, that is all. So, this change has absolutely nada to do with any whining detractors. In fact, all the whining started after it was announced, from peeps displeased with the alteration.

Edited by IndiraLightfoot

*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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That's too bad. I thought the combined Might stat gave this system a distinctive flavor. I guess all the whining paid off for the detractors.

Here's the funny thing. though. Precisely nobody over at the backer beta forums had said anything about it, at all. One backer among dozens came with a similar suggestion once in one of the discussion threads, that is all. So, this change has absolutely nada to do with any whining detractors. In fact, all the whining started after it was announced, from peeps displeased with the alteration.

Still, Sawyer's post starts like this: "all of your wildest dreams are coming true: might is being replaced with strength..." so I guess there was a whining after all.

I don't care much about the name change. At all in fact. And the change may indeed make the gameplay better for Deadfire. What I still don't understand is why there had to be all these changes - do they do something dramatically better than Pillars 1? - and the change of design philosophy.

Edited by Sedrefilos

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Nah, he's referring to a very old squabble back when PoE1 was made, years ago, just like Infinitron is doing with his jokingly all-caps "Sawyerism betrayed". Those flames burned hot, but half a decade ago.


*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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the current complaints remind us o' all the moaning 'bout poe companion stats.  durance and grieving mother were complete ineffective... according to folks in the poe beta.  so Gromnir builds priests and ciphers with exact same complete garbage stats o' durance and grieving mother... and roll-stomped our way through innumerable poe beta runs.  oh, and as we noted in the other thread (these overlapping threads is giving us a headache) poe grieving mother had 11 might and 10 resolve.  in new deadfire, giving her a slight bonus, she would have equivalent strength and resolve o' 11.  try and tell us how grieving mother were an ineffective cipher in our many potd runs.  

 

in any event, the complaints is utter ridiculous for obvious reason they hinge o' the change o' resolve from dump stat to useful.  

 

...

 

obvious dump stats is the problem.  resolve as a dump stat is having its own thread generating complaints.  so resolve is no longer a dump stat for many builds and sudden we got wails and moans aplenty.

 

...

 

on rare occasions we feel sorry for developers.

 

in any event, the resolve "fix" will have consequences unintended and unacceptable for any number o' classes... which is another reason why keeping the classes insular and discreet is so useful.  can fix a few o' the 11 classes on an individual basis. small changes  ad hoc which will remain limited.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Still, Sawyer's post starts like this: "all of your wildest dreams are coming true: might is being replaced with strength..." so I guess there was a whining after all.

 

 

 

I don't care much about the name change. At all in fact. And the change may indeed make the gameplay better for Deadfire. What I still don't understand is why there had to be all these changes - do they do something dramatically better than Pillars 1? - and the change of design philosophy.

Only Obsidian folks can speak for themselves, but I would imagine they would be toughest critics of their own game. As a studio, which never did a sequel just yet, copy pasting same systems into sequels might not be in their bloodstream. I am to surprised by how much the system is being altered, but I for one am more excited for sequel than disappointed. I am planning to play through with the same single class orlan cipher, and all those changes mean that the experience will be quite different. For better or for worse - we will see. 

 

Why do a sequel if you are afraid to change things?

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Still, Sawyer's post starts like this: "all of your wildest dreams are coming true: might is being replaced with strength..." so I guess there was a whining after all.

 

 

 

I don't care much about the name change. At all in fact. And the change may indeed make the gameplay better for Deadfire. What I still don't understand is why there had to be all these changes - do they do something dramatically better than Pillars 1? - and the change of design philosophy.

Only Obsidian folks can speak for themselves, but I would imagine they would be toughest critics of their own game. As a studio, which never did a sequel just yet, copy pasting same systems into sequels might not be in their bloodstream. I am to surprised by how much the system is being altered, but I for one am more excited for sequel than disappointed. I am planning to play through with the same single class orlan cipher, and all those changes mean that the experience will be quite different. For better or for worse - we will see. 

 

Why do a sequel if you are afraid to change things?

 

The sequel already changes a lot of things in comparison to the first game. Things that needed change or boost. From dialogue interactivity, to graphics, to scripted interactions to world travel. But the systems, I feel, was not a thing that needed that much of a change. I'm not sure what they're trying to achieve with many of the new mechanics that wasn't achieved in Pillars 1.

And we can see this by the conversations in the beta forums. Almost every topic has to do with mechanics. I think we agree all the other aspects I mentioned are treated right. Mechanics though have divided the community.

I know it's early and many things might change. Even this new changes might be for the better of the gameplay of Deadfire as it is now, true, but, I cannot mention this enough, the design philosophy is watered down with this move. That's how I feel right now and, although I might not play the game more than once in normal mode and have lots of fun, my faith in pushing the genre forward has shattered.

Edited by Sedrefilos
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Here is new post from Josh explaining the changes. We love you Josh  :). Sorry for the beat down, sort of.  :devil:

Edited by draego
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"Here are things that are not motivations for the shift: to dumb the game down (?), to make the game console friendly (??), to make ciphers bad because I hate ciphers and hate you and want the worst things in life to happen to only you  ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)."

 

lol other communities took it way more personally than we did here :D

Edited by Sedrefilos
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I dont see how this has any thing to do with making things Console Friendly that is weird criticism.

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"Here are things that are not motivations for the shift: to dumb the game down (?), to make the game console friendly (??), to make ciphers bad because I hate ciphers and hate you and want the worst things in life to happen to only you  ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)."

 

lol other communities took it way more personally than we did here :D

Yeah, the reactions on these forums are mild compared to that frigging nonsense. I'm not surprised, though. You should have been here during the PoE1 beta.

Holy moly!

 

I really hope this doesn't get to Josh too much, and that we get to try out the new changes for a while first.

 

His backup plan for/with Concentration is interesting, but I'm sure there are other ways as well to make it all work. :)

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*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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You should have been here during the PoE1 beta.

 

What are you talking about? I was arguing with the "in the IE games" side all the time :D

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