how does the penetration mechanic feels like?

[Katarack21]

Suspect the phrasing you're looking for is "most optimized." The most optimized solution is the optimal solution; it's not just that optimal is superlative, it's that it's definitionally a unique solution; there can be only one optimal solution to a given problem.

Quadratic equations can have multiple optimal solutions. This is of course incredibly pedantic, but it's also a point about how the more complex the system the less likely you are to have definitive outcomes, especially when working with large numbers of variables.

Edited November 20, 2017 by Katarack21

[MaxQuest]

Suspect the phrasing you're looking for is "most optimized."

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/msty.gif Edited November 20, 2017 by MaxQuest

[Dr. Hieronymous Alloy]

 

Suspect the phrasing you're looking for is "most optimized." The most optimized solution is the optimal solution; it's not just that optimal is superlative, it's that it's definitionally a unique solution; there can be only one optimal solution to a given problem.

Quadratic equations can have multiple optimal solutions. This is of course incredibly pedantic, but it's also a point about how the more complex the system the less likely you are to have definitive outcomes, especially when working with large numbers of variables.

 

 

 

and the mathematics major defeats the english major yet again

 

(With the quadratic yeah you're getting into how you define "solution"; you've narrowed the set of potential solutions down to two equally possible candidates). 

Edited November 20, 2017 by Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

[Enduin]

 

I'm not committed to any final decision but at this point I'm leaning towards suggesting a sliding scale for penetration, where each point above/ below defender's AR would add or subtract 5% damage (additively not multiplicatively).

I have tried to visualize this, as it's easier to get a wider view:

 

 

I think it's important to keep in mind that Pen-AR does affect not only our dps, but also the survivability of our "tanks".

I've added a quick v2. But still thinking of all the pros and cons.

 

---

Do you think 1 point of difference = 10% damage would work better?

Like pen 5 VS armor 5 = 100% damage.

pen 5 vs armor 4 = 110% damage.

pen 4 vs armor 5 = 90% damage.

And so on?

Here how it looks:

 

 

 

---

Btw, if you are interested in PoE1 situation (although there we could get a much lower PEN minus DR situations):

 

 

This is very useful, thanks.

 

Looking at the current setup and alternative takes on it I think a mix of the current stepped dmg variation and gradual variation would be best. 

 

So for each Pen point above AR you'd get a 5% increase in DMG, with an additional 10% bump every 3rd point for a maximum dmg bonus of 150%. So 105%, 110%, 125%, 130%, 135%, 150%. 

 

Then on the other end for every Pen point below AR you get a 10% reduction in damage, with an addition 10% every 3rd point, or 90%, 80%, 60%, 50%, 40%, 20%.

 

This would provide more gradation and leniency while still providing pretty sizable bumps for those with far superior PEN/AR.

 

The current system is too all or nothing, but going to a completely gradient scale would still likely result in issues of armor class benefits. You need that noticeable bump/decrease in DMG based on that to retain the use case for heavy armors and trade off of light/cloth armors. 

[Gromnir]

just a thought, but am thinking it might be a good idea to keep the 130% cap for penetration overkill.  am finding it is easy, if one is obsessive 'bout such, to exploit penetration.  there is foods and weapons and class talents/abilities which all affect penetration. with the current system, am finding many ways to achieve consistent penetration overkill. at 130% damage for overkill am already seeing a few potential broken multiclass combos. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[hilfazer]

 

To know all AR values you need to complete the game at least once. And if you are replaying the game it is a developer's success.

It's enough for just one player to post the list ;D

 

 

Reading guides is a problem with a player. Yes, I dared to attack The Player!

Other popular probelms are savescamming and cheating. And while those two can be trivially prevented by devs, reading guides is pretty much impossible to stop. That's why devs should not bother with that at all. It's up to player if he wants to play blind or not. Personally i'd play blind given a chance since there's only one such chance.

 

Savescamming might actually be a problem not just with the player but other two are completely.

[Boeroer]

just a thought, but am thinking it might be a good idea to keep the 130% cap for penetration overkill. am finding it is easy, if one is obsessive 'bout such, to exploit penetration. there is foods and weapons and class talents/abilities which all affect penetration. with the current system, am finding many ways to achieve consistent penetration overkill. at 130% damage for overkill am already seeing a few potential broken multiclass combos.

 

HA! Good Fun!

True. Also remember that this is multiplicative - also with the bonus crit damage! Bonus crit damage can be buffed via multiclassing as well. I got pretty nasty results with Devoted/Assassin, Devoted/Berserker, Skald/Berserker and so on.

[Doppelschwert]

There should be a small, but meaningful window for damage modifiers based on penetration; a range that feels good could be 60% to 120%. This gives an incentive to care about penetration without outright punishing you if you don't focus around the mechanic.

[Enduin]

What would be the major draw back to simply not having Penetration/Armor Rating or Damage Reduction from PoE and simply just having everything be controlled by Accuracy vs Defense?

 

Armors could still have single digit ARs but behind the scenes that number would represent a fixed bonus to defense against the accuracy of an attack, rather than a check on the damage itself being dealt. So your Acc vs "Defense type X" + AR. 

 

You'd still be able to have dmg type based ARs like Crushing, Slashing, Piercing, Freezing, Burning, Shocking and Corrosion. But the final effect would always just be a Miss, Graze, Hit or Crit. And then the same bonuses you might for Graze to Hit, Hit to Crit and vice versa would still apply. 

 

Is the task of balancing out Acc across classes and armor types that difficult that it's necessary and worthwhile to have a whole other system to further effect dmg outcomes? 

[morhilane]

What would be the major draw back to simply not having Penetration/Armor Rating or Damage Reduction from PoE and simply just having everything be controlled by Accuracy vs Defense?

 

Armors could still have single digit ARs but behind the scenes that number would represent a fixed bonus to defense against the accuracy of an attack, rather than a check on the damage itself being dealt. So your Acc vs "Defense type X" + AR. 

 

You'd still be able to have dmg type based ARs like Crushing, Slashing, Piercing, Freezing, Burning, Shocking and Corrosion. But the final effect would always just be a Miss, Graze, Hit or Crit. And then the same bonuses you might for Graze to Hit, Hit to Crit and vice versa would still apply. 

 

Is the task of balancing out Acc across classes and armor types that difficult that it's necessary and worthwhile to have a whole other system to further effect dmg outcomes?

Josh prefer armor being about reducing damage received instead of being part of the total defense calculation (going by Fallout New Vegas and now POE). Although, technically they could just have a -/+XX% received damage of type Y on the armor and not bother with either AR vs Penetration or DR calculations. Edited November 20, 2017 by morhilane

[Daled]

In a partially unrelated note and just thinking about the min cap instead of the PEN/AR scaling. I was thinking (just correct me if this doesn't make any sense or is totally unrelated), in PoE1 the min damage after DR calculation was at 20% but we also had the graze mechanic that allowed to do some damage even without optimal accuracy/rolls, in a word we had more "hits".

 

Since graze isn't a thing anymore we absolutely need to hit to do any damage, 30% as the min cap isn't a bit on the brutal side? A 50% seems more fair, or is 30% (10% more then PoE1) enough to counteract less hits overall?

[Answermancer]

I quite like MaxQuest's table with the 25% thresholds. It feel "right" to me when I look at that distribution, although I think having the bonus damage go that high would be problematic and I'd probably leave it capped at 130% or 125% or something.

 

I think 5% per point or something lenient like that would defeat the purpose to some extent. That is, the point is supposed to be that switching weapons (or damage types) is optimal, and I think you do want a fairly hefty penalty for using the wrong damage type. I just think that currently that penalty is too steep with a 1 point difference.

 

I still think the old system was way more intuitive though, to be honest, and it didn't have this "1 point off" issue.

[anfoglia]

My view, expressed in the initial impressions thread, is that armor penetration is not much fun at the moment. The combination of high thresholds and severe penalties means that combat comes down to lowering enemies' AR and raising your PEN. Although I can see the merit in softening the penalties by scaling the damage reduced for every point of PEN < AR. I worry that would result in a lot of muddy calculations in each encounter (by each enemy type), made significantly worse by the damage reduction using percentages rather than integers. 25% bands might be okay, but get much narrower than that and I would want tables for active weapons sets showing "average damage against AR-n."

 

An alternative would be to leave the penalties alone and adjust the AR and PEN numbers so that, on average, a character in a level-appropriate encounter with reasonable equipment would be able to penetrate with at least one of his/her weapons, before applying buffs/debuffs. You would still switch weapon sets as needed and buff/debuff for particularly tanky foes (or to overpenetrate for bonus damage), but more often you could skate by with your default setup. Penetration would remain both clear (because no sliding scale) and important (because the penalty is severe). It just wouldn't be the primary consideration in most encounters.

[Enduin]

 

What would be the major draw back to simply not having Penetration/Armor Rating or Damage Reduction from PoE and simply just having everything be controlled by Accuracy vs Defense?

 

Armors could still have single digit ARs but behind the scenes that number would represent a fixed bonus to defense against the accuracy of an attack, rather than a check on the damage itself being dealt. So your Acc vs "Defense type X" + AR. 

 

You'd still be able to have dmg type based ARs like Crushing, Slashing, Piercing, Freezing, Burning, Shocking and Corrosion. But the final effect would always just be a Miss, Graze, Hit or Crit. And then the same bonuses you might for Graze to Hit, Hit to Crit and vice versa would still apply. 

 

Is the task of balancing out Acc across classes and armor types that difficult that it's necessary and worthwhile to have a whole other system to further effect dmg outcomes?

Josh prefer armor being about reducing damage received instead of being part of the total defense calculation (going by Fallout New Vegas and now POE). Although, technically they could just have a -/+XX% received damage of type Y on the armor and not bother with either AR vs Penetration or DR calculations.

 

It's not a bad goal and one I'd normally be in favor of, but at this point it's starting to feel like maybe it's more trouble than it's worth. DR "worked" in PoE, but as Josh stated too many people incorrectly made assumptions based on DR ratings as it's not always a one to one situation of always attacking the lowest DR. And now the Pen/AR system is more difficult to understand upfront, but should make for better understanding once you do get it. And I get it, but it still seems imperfect and too gamey right now as you're simply min-maxing each encounter by necessity as failing to meet or exceed an enemies AR means you're barely making a dent. 

 

Pinning everything to Acc vs Defense might not be as realistic, but it works. And honestly looking at the formulas and everything Pen/AR really just looks like a convoluted means of deriving what is effectively Graze/Hit/Crit, but with an extra layer of confusion added on top. Sure there's a bit more nuance to it than that, but on average it looks like it's basically coming out to the same end result just maybe skewing towards slightly weaker attacks overall with the occasional massive hit. But you could largely achieve that through Acc vs Def anyways if you really wanted to by just tweaking some things. So why go to all that trouble when you can just adjust ARs to simply effect the To-Hit calculation and if totally necessary have certain armors increase the dmg penalty for Grazes or provide their own Crits to Hits and Hits to Graze bonuses?

 

Feels like some variation of Def +/* AR Bonus vs Acc +/* Dmg type Bonus could work out quite well. Just have the AR be associated with certain bonus values. Say have each point of AR provide a flat 5% bonus to Defense and a 1% chance for Crits to Hits/Hits to Grazes or something like that. So someone with 10 AR gets +50% bonus to Defense plus a +10% chance of Crits to Hits/Hits to Grazes. Then for specific Dmg Types ARs for every point below their generic AR they instead incur a defensive penalty of 3x times that of their bonus. 

 

So a Scarab with 50 Deflection and 6 AR will have a bonus of 15 Deflection for a total of 65 plus a 6% chance of Hits->Grazes->Miss. You go at them with someone who has 44 Acc with some Daggers or Swords and you're not going to do great. You'll hit but probably more Grazes than Hits. You really won't do well if all you have is Piercing Weapons as they have an AR of 12 vs Piercing, so that would be a Deflection of 80 plus a 12% chance of Hits->Grazes->Miss. Now you're hitting more than you're hitting beetle. But if you go after them with a Mace or Hammer you're going to mess em up real bad as they only have an AR of 3 vs Crush so that Deflection is now only 28 and you now have an effective +9% chance of Miss->Grazes->Hits->Crits.

 

It's effectively the same principle as the current Pen/AR we have now, go after the lower AR, but it cuts out the excess math/confusion that the Pen brings in and let players just focus on the their Acc vs the enemy's effective Defense. And you can still have abilities and spells that effect AR. Some further tweaks might be necessary to health values depending on if this increases/decreases average # of hits, but it shouldn't be that big a change so long as the appropriate AR values are distributed. 

[mortimermcmire]

hi there modmaster mort here with some tips and suggestions

 

1. no base weapon has below 5 pen, so keep that in mind. Many armors have less than 5 defense, yes, but all base weapons have at least 5 pen. 

2. The way penetration is coded is based on thresholds

( Attack pen / defense pen ) = the number that gets thresholded. As far as I can see it is incredibly easy to change those thresholds. I've done it. 

 

Ever hear of a 1.2 damage multiplier? In my game, that exists!

 

bb_global in poe2data\exported\design\gamedata has a section called "penetrationmultipliers" followed the the thresholds and values. 

 

The way it works is if the ratio calculated is above the threshold it uses that value, unless it also qualifies for a higher threshold. 

 

Using a system based on raw subtraction instead of division requires a lot more coding and can't be done on my end. But if you suggest a system based on that ratio of pen to armor, I can very quickly give you a file you can test with. (Or you can try doing it yourself if you'd like! It's easy.)

[KDubya]

The more I play the more used to the new penetration system I get.

 

1.) Raising your AR now pays off while in PoE it just took a few points off a big number, now it can stop 70%. It needs to be big to justify the action speed malus from armor.

 

2.) Weapons with lower damage and higher penetration like a warhammer have a purpose rather than always going with Sabre because damage is everything. Weapons with multiple damage types have increased their worth as few points difference in AR can be huge rather than a meaningless difference in a few points of damage.

 

3.) Having multiple weapon types in different slots are much more powerful and useful. Now maybe you want a ranged weapon like a gun, a general purpose weapon like a spear and an Estoc to deal with super high damage. having a third weapon slot might be useful for something other than another gun to shoot once. Not sure a Black Jacket is worth the loss of regen for another weapon slot though, seems pretty expensive.

 

4.) If your base AP is not enough you can:

          a.) Activate the increased penetration modal on your weapon if you chose one with that ability.

          b.) Switch to a weapon with a more favorable AR

          c.) Cast a spell or activate an ability that reduces AR

          d.) Try to increase your accuracy/decrease their deflection via buffs, switching to single weapon style or other means in order to get critical hits which get bonus AP

          e.) Suck it up Buttercup and just accept the -70% damage

 

I think this system will be more complex and rewarding to master as opposed to the old system of more damage is the solution to everything.

 

 

P.S. Once enchantments are included in the game using an elemental weapon lash might alleviate a lot of the issues with AP.

[Boeroer]

In some ways the new system is better than the old one.

 

The problem I (and others) see is that penetration has become the no. 1 concern now, dominating everything else.

[Katarack21]

2.) Weapons with lower damage and higher penetration like a warhammer have a purpose rather than always going with Sabre because damage is everything. Weapons with multiple damage types have increased their worth as few points difference in AR can be huge rather than a meaningless difference in a few points of damage.

Indeed, thanks to the huge reduction if under penetration and the huge bonus if over penetration, it behooves you to *always* use high penetration weapons regardless of damage amounts. They are at this point the best weapons to have.

 

My mage with a warbow is doing *significantly* more damage with autoattack than his magic.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Katarack21

[KDubya]

 

2.) Weapons with lower damage and higher penetration like a warhammer have a purpose rather than always going with Sabre because damage is everything. Weapons with multiple damage types have increased their worth as few points difference in AR can be huge rather than a meaningless difference in a few points of damage.

Indeed, thanks to the huge reduction if under penetration and the huge bonus if over penetration, it behooves you to *always* use high penetration weapons regardless of damage amounts. They are at this point the best weapons to have.

 

My mage with a warbow is doing *significantly* more damage with autoattack than his magic.

 

 

You only need to use enough penetration. A Warhammer has 8 penetration if the enemy has only 7 or less armor its a lot better to use a Sabre and hit much harder. You can even use the modal for Sabres which I believe increase penetration in case you a few points short. If you are off more than that you need some sort of AR debuff or try for getting crits.

 

Mages are a whole different issue. With only five spells (2@1st, 2@2nd and 1@3rd) you can't exclusively cast, you will spend a fair bit (most?) of your time attacking with a weapon. That in itself is not inherently bad, but spells could use some buffs.

[Boeroer]

It's nearly always better to stack PEN because

 

a) you don't know what the enemies' AR is unless you have previously met them or have meta knowledge. Better be on the safe side.

 

b) the multiplicative damage boost when having PEN=2*AR is very powerful.

[Katarack21]

 

 

2.) Weapons with lower damage and higher penetration like a warhammer have a purpose rather than always going with Sabre because damage is everything. Weapons with multiple damage types have increased their worth as few points difference in AR can be huge rather than a meaningless difference in a few points of damage.

Indeed, thanks to the huge reduction if under penetration and the huge bonus if over penetration, it behooves you to *always* use high penetration weapons regardless of damage amounts. They are at this point the best weapons to have.

 

My mage with a warbow is doing *significantly* more damage with autoattack than his magic.

 

 

You only need to use enough penetration. A Warhammer has 8 penetration if the enemy has only 7 or less armor its a lot better to use a Sabre and hit much harder. You can even use the modal for Sabres which I believe increase penetration in case you a few points short. If you are off more than that you need some sort of AR debuff or try for getting crits.

 

Mages are a whole different issue. With only five spells (2@1st, 2@2nd and 1@3rd) you can't exclusively cast, you will spend a fair bit (most?) of your time attacking with a weapon. That in itself is not inherently bad, but spells could use some buffs.

 

That's true to some extent, but at the moment basically the most effective fighter I've figured out how to make is a devoted streetfighter that stacks penetration. 469 damage crits, thanks to exceeding penetration massively thanks to the crit penetration bonus...with sneak attack bonuses on top of that.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Katarack21

[AndreaColombo]

Agree with your points in general, KDubya, but also agree with Boeroer in that currently Pen trumps everything else. It’s a good system but Pen needs to go from THE concern to A concern.

[CottonWolf]

b) the multiplicative damage boost when having PEN=2*AR is very powerful.

 

A solution would be just to dump that. Then there's no benefit to having more PEN than the AR.

[Boeroer]

Yeah, maybe that would be better. Or give it only 15% more or so. You don't want to gimp estocs and the like either. They have a LOT less base damage than for example great swords in Deadfire and once you get exceptional (or superb or whatever awesome) gear then the difference between estoc and great sword in terms of penetration gets smaller (relatively).

 

Or just make it additive. 30% addititve is not so powerful but still ok. 30% multiplicative is powerful because it also has a crazy interaction with crits. And crit chance + damage can be stacked like crazy with the right class combo (as can PEN). So if you achieve a boosted crit and manage to overcome 2*AR (which is easy with the right classes/abilites) your damage gets multiplied into ridiculous heights. This interaction between crits (higher PEN, higher damage) and double PEN (even more damage) has do be altered. Either remove bonus damage from crits or remove bonus damage from double PEN (or make it less or additive).

 

THis is why it's so benefical to stack PEN atm (and crit chance of course - look at the fighter's Barrage and so on).

 

I mean seriously: who wants to have 400+ damage crits? Of course it's fun and a "whoop-whoop" moment the first time (as was my first Soul Annihilation use), but it gets pretty boring and also is a balancing issue.

Edited November 21, 2017 by Boeroer

[AndreaColombo]

hi

But if you suggest a system based on that ratio of pen to armor, I can very quickly give you a file you can test with. (Or you can try doing it yourself if you'd like! It's easy.)

 

Hey,

 

do you think you could code a system like MaxQuest proposed in this thread?

 

It would be nice to give it a try.

 

 

b) the multiplicative damage boost when having PEN=2*AR is very powerful.

 

A solution would be just to dump that. Then there's no benefit to having more PEN than the AR.

 

 

Or make it 50% additive like a critical hit. Much less powerful than 30% multiplicative, but still worth pursuing if you're into that. It would go from being the one way to boost your DPS to be one way to do it.