Josh Sawyer's tweets and teasers

[Frog Man]

[quote name="Boeroer" post="1979079" timestamp="1518851488

The idea of The Balthazar(?) that you can invest thrice in a proficency to:

 

a) get the modal

b) increase the bonus

c) decrease the malus

 

would be nice to see implemented.

 

—————————————————————

 

This would completely go against the aim of the new system. As josh stated, they want players to feel free to switch to non proficient weapons at any time. It was always a drag when I’d get a cool new poleaxe or wand or staff in POE but wouldn’t use it bc my guys were already locked into weapon sets due to weapon focus. If you had the ability like you suggest to invest THREE talents in like greatsword for Eder for example, you as the player would pretty much never feel free to put anything other than a greatsword in his hands.

Edited February 17, 2018 by Frog Man

[Boeroer]

That is goes against the aim of the new system is the best part.

 

Also: retraining is a nice feature to ensure you can make best use of a weapon you found and have not the fitting proficiency. Better than making all proficiencies meaningless so that it's no problem to use a weapon with which you are not proficient.

 

Also: getting one proficiency every 3 levels now means you'll have 7 proficiencies at the end of the game. It's very likely that you can spend enough points in the new weapon you found as you go along.

Edited February 17, 2018 by Boeroer

[Sedrefilos]

I never liked weapon proficencies in c-rpgs. Since the loot is so much and you switch gear so often it feels restrictive. Maybe they should go just with fighting style. At least this is usually consistent; most play characters in a certain way regarding whay kind of gear they use (eg. ranged, two-handed or one-handed+shield, dual wield, etc).

Edited February 17, 2018 by Sedrefilos

[Boeroer]

But it's the desire of most players to be able to master one particular weapon - or being better with it than with others. As I said: retraining would meet both needs.

[dunehunter]

 

The idea of The Balthazar(?) that you can invest thrice in a proficency to:

 

a) get the modal

b) increase the bonus

c) decrease the malus

 

would be nice to see implemented.

 

—————————————————————

 

This would completely go against the aim of the new system. As josh stated, they want players to feel free to switch to non proficient weapons at any time. It was always a drag when I’d get a cool new poleaxe or wand or staff in POE but wouldn’t use it bc my guys were already locked into weapon sets due to weapon focus. If you had the ability like you suggest to invest THREE talents in like greatsword for Eder for example, you as the player would pretty much never feel free to put anything other than a greatsword in his hands.

I raised that bg2 like weapon proficiency earlier but get argued for the same reason. If we invest into a weapon three time then nobody will use those weapon that is not proficiented.

 

I think the current system is more newbie friendly for who only play one playthrough. So if they find some cool weapon they want to use, but is not proficiented, they got no penalty for doing that.

 

But for hardcore gamer who will do a lot playthrough, this is quite meaningless as we know what weapon we will use in game in each step of playthrough. For them, a bg2 like system feels more rewarding as we can make us really master some weapon we like.

Edited February 17, 2018 by dunehunter

[Wormerine]

I find straight boost to be simply boring - you do more penetration, you are more accurate, you do +2 more damage. Those a boring upgrades. They make character more efficient making me as a player less involved. They don’t give you new tool to use and apply, it just either becomes meaningless due to enemies getting adjusted to new boost of power, you need to worry less.

 

Modals, while not perfect, are more interesting and limiting and removing malus would be a shame as they would simply become numerical boosts. It seems that unlike many, I found at least some modals useful. Staff defence boost for my wizard when she gets engaged in melee and het goal is to survive. Mace’s -1 armour to allow other allies to do more damage. Those a situational, and that is their role - give proficient character (and therefore a player) an extra tool to use, not just make the kill faster. While on in love with proficiency system, at least during lvl up I look through those to see if there is something my character could use, instead of blindly dumping points into weapon I use to get better rolls.

[Boeroer]

I raised that bg2 like weapon proficiency earlier but get argued for the same reason. If we invest into a weapon three time then nobody will use those weapon that is not proficiented.

 

I think the current system is more newbie friendly for who only play one playthrough. So if they find some cool weapon they want to use, but is not proficiented, they got no penalty for doing that.

 

But for hardcore gamer who will do a lot playthrough, this is quite meaningless as we know what weapon we will use in game in each step of playthrough. For them, a bg2 like system feels more rewarding as we can make us really master some weapon we like.

Exactly

Edited February 17, 2018 by Boeroer

[DexGames]

Then the whole system, shouldn't be called "Proficiency" in the first place.

 

Because Proficiency means Efficacity. It was all about getting better at something.

Getting a Malus when you choose to be "proficient" at something is... just weird. No ?  

 

I'm ok with some sort of a tradeoff though, but I expected at least "Ranks" within the Proficiency System.

& not being Proficient in 24 weapons by the end of the Game. 

 

EDIT : About "Nobody will use a weapon he's not proficient with". That's the whole point of it, it's a commitment.

The Newbie that really wanna use the new found weapon he's not proficient with, can learn how to press a button called "Respec a Character".

 

Right now, by the end of the Game, the entire range of weapons proficiencies will be covered by your entire group.

There's always going to be someone in your group who will be proficient in any given weapon.

Pick a Proficiency every 1/4 Level was already bad, now it's even worse being a 1/3 Level pick. 

Edited February 17, 2018 by DexGames

[Wormerine]

Then the whole system, shouldn't be called "Proficiency" in the first place.

 

Because Proficiency means Efficacity. It was all about getting better at something.

Getting a Malus when you choose to be "proficient" at something is... weird. No ?  

Or you can use a tool in a way that fits your situation best.

[Boeroer]

I find straight boost to be simply boring - you do more penetration, you are more accurate, you do +2 more damage. Those a boring upgrades. They make character more efficient making me as a player less involved. They don’t give you new tool to use and apply, it just either becomes meaningless due to enemies getting adjusted to new boost of power, you need to worry less.

 

Modals, while not perfect, are more interesting and limiting and removing malus would be a shame as they would simply become numerical boosts. It seems that unlike many, I found at least some modals useful. Staff defence boost for my wizard when she gets engaged in melee and het goal is to survive. Mace’s -1 armour to allow other allies to do more damage. Those a situational, and that is their role - give proficient character (and therefore a player) an extra tool to use, not just make the kill faster. While on in love with proficiency system, at least during lvl up I look through those to see if there is something my character could use, instead of blindly dumping points into weapon I use to get better rolls.

Some are ok and do their job when it comes to handling special situations. For example dagger, qaurterstaff, morning star and others. But others are simply bad - like sabres' modal for example. Basically all modals that give +2 PEN for +100% recovery. The damage you gain via more PEN will get eaten away by the slower attack speed at best. So it's just bad in every situation except Full Attacks. Single sabre users and war bow lovers are crying...

 

More modals like scepters', swords and so on would be better. Something that does not give you the malus in the same field (like dps) as the bonus. But rather modals where the malus is in a different field (see sword or dagger or scepter: survivability) than the bonus (dps).

Edited February 17, 2018 by Boeroer

[Wormerine]

But others are simply bad - like sabres' modal for example. Basically all modals that give +2 PEN for +100% recovery. The damage you gain via more PEN will get eaten away by the slower attack speed at best. So it's just bad in every situation except Full Attacks. Single sabre users and war bow lovers are crying...

Yeah true. I have been using weapons more based on what their modals are, so I have not been using those. Sabres’ modal worked better with set 30% when under penetration, but it still doesn’t cover for the +100% recovery. Modals need tweaking, but I don’t think the idea itself needs a drastic redesign.

[DexGames]

Pick a Proficiency every 1/4 Level was already bad, now it's even worse being a 1/3 Level pick. 

 

Here is How it's going to End :

 

Basically :

 

Like someone would say : Ha ! Good Fun !

Edited February 17, 2018 by DexGames

[rjshae]

But it's the desire of most players to be able to master one particular weapon - or being better with it than with others. As I said: retraining would meet both needs.

 

Retraining is the exact opposite of immersive. At least give it a meaningful in-game mechanic, like a divine device that reprograms your brain or Cipher surgery.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I've only taken proficiency into account for weapon focus and Devoted because for the most part they're too extreme to even be situational. Greatsword is the worst offender, with the accuracy Malus eating away the bonus damage by transferring your hits to grazes. I'm not sure if the solution is proficency tiers or tuning down some of the modals, but as of now the only way Proficiency matters to me is in regards to abilities.

 

Speaking if which, why is Weapon Focus Barbarian exclusive? The loss of +6 accuracy on my weapon users is pretty heavy.

[theBalthazar]

In fact, I think Josh Sawyer want equal efficiency between proficiency and non-proficiency.

 

So with this way of thinking, you can't give level of upgrade like my proposition.

 

Because if you do that, Proficiency become far more interresting than non proficiency.

 

But finally, I think actually, this is already the case, partially. I explain :

 

Actually, for me, EVEN with that system perfectly equal of MALUS/BONUS, I don't change of weapon all 20 seconds.... I take ONE weapon (like 90 % of players) often a Double sword (two kind of damages and a good modal) and I stay with that.

 

So, in that case, levels of proficiency are better.

 

Indeed, fews players play with two kind of weapons, it is true, But in the "3 levels of proficiency system", there would be a place for at least 2 proficiencies fully upgraded (3 x 2 = 6 and you have... like 7 proficiency actually ?)

 

Let's see that.... :

 

----------------

 

ACTUALLY

 

HALF SWORD (COST : 1 proficiency)

+2 penetration

-20 deflection

 

----------------

 

POSSIBLE SYSTEM

 

HALF SWORD (COST : 1 pt of proficiency)

+2 penetration

-20 deflection

 

IMPROVED HALF SWORD (COST : 2 pts of proficiency)

+3 penetration

-20 deflection

 

SUPERIOR HALF SWORD (COST : 3 pts of proficiency)

+3 penetration

-10 deflection

 

I don't say this is perfectly balanced or what, it is just to see visually the concept.

 

 

Pick a Proficiency every 1/4 Level was already bad, now it's even worse being a 1/3 Level pick.  

 

EDIT :

WHAT THE ? XD

All 3 levels ?...

 

Edited February 17, 2018 by theBalthazar

[Boeroer]

 

But it's the desire of most players to be able to master one particular weapon - or being better with it than with others. As I said: retraining would meet both needs.

 

Retraining is the exact opposite of immersive. At least give it a meaningful in-game mechanic, like a divine device that reprograms your brain or Cipher surgery.

 

Dat immersion again... if they don't belch, fart and puke in the tavern the game breaks my immersion.

Better to invent meaningless proficiencies so that nobody feels offended if they find a weapon they are not proficient with. Errrr...

 

However - retraining doesn't have to be implemented in that "brute force" way like in PoE where you simply do a complete level-up right from the start again.

 

instead you could also do it in a way that you go to a special trainer for proficiencies (think of Osric in Defiance Bay's Expedition Hall in PoE) and simply ask him if he can show you how to use XY better. You would then pick a proficiency you want to lose in order to free up points and then put them elsewhere. That will cost some money and that's it. In Tyranny you had special trainers for stuff. So basically like this but not to improve things but to retrain special stuff. Superimmersive for those who need that to be happy.

Edited February 17, 2018 by Boeroer

[Blades of Vanatar]

Profiency systems work if you have enough teammates to cover most if not all weapon types. For example Wizardry 8 with a 6 man team plus 2 NPCs did a fine job in that regard. Limiting the team to 5 makes it way more frustrating when you find the Pollaxe that rocks...

Edited February 18, 2018 by Blades of Vanatar

[rjshae]

n/m

Edited February 18, 2018 by rjshae

[Boeroer]

I agree that it can be an "Awww man!" moment when you find a cool weapon that nobody of your party is proficienct with (if it's a more impactful sort of proficiency). That's why I find retraining useful. On the other hand those things made me replay BG and Icewind Dale.

[injurai]

I like finding equipment I can't use because it informs me of potential opportunities for subsequent play-throughs.

 

It's boring when all the equipment you find is usable, because then everything is either trash or some moderate upgrade. (Occasionally a big upgrade.)

 

Where the alternative is you find a lot of wild things, mostly worthwhile, where the issue is that you don't have a proficiency in something. But the weapon may still merit a use for a while.

[IndiraLightfoot]

I like finding equipment I can't use because it informs me of potential opportunities for subsequent play-throughs.

 

It's boring when all the equipment you find is usable, because then everything is either trash or some moderate upgrade. (Occasionally a big upgrade.)

 

Where the alternative is you find a lot of wild things, mostly worthwhile, where the issue is that you don't have a proficiency in something. But the weapon may still merit a use for a while.

Yeah, this is exactly how I feel too. And as DexGames so aptly demonstrated, our party of five will be "proficient" with every single weapon, shield, etc and then some with this new every third level. Personally, I find this even worse. I'd rather have two picks, one per every tenth level or something, if you'd twist my arm.

 

I reckon, it's pretty clear that Josh is adapting the game for the casuals (statistics showing that a normal person play like 30-70% of the game once), so he's opted for the inclusive approach, whereas I love the opposite: the exclusive approach, where it soon becomes clear to me that my party with one single class druid, one single class rogue, one fighter/wizard, one pally/monk and one single class cipher, all having made specific class choices at that, with a few select weapon proficiency picks, is something clearly different than my second party with a single class priest, a single class spell wizard, a chanter/rogue, a ghost wolf ranger and a single class fighter, for instance. 

Edited February 18, 2018 by IndiraLightfoot

[injurai]

Not sure what my opinions are on the frequency. Delaying gives you more time to make decisions, while more frequent ones allow you to shift around a bit as needed. You can delay spending points in Deadfire right?

[IndiraLightfoot]

Proficiency points perhaps, but not talents.

[dunehunter]

Not sure what my opinions are on the frequency. Delaying gives you more time to make decisions, while more frequent ones allow you to shift around a bit as needed. You can delay spending points in Deadfire right?

As far as I know u cannot delay any point in beta, talent, proficiency, skill point, all no.

[bonarbill]

Profiency systems work if you have enough teammates to cover most if not all weapon types. For example Wizardry 8 with a 6 man team plus 2 NPCs did a fine job in that regard. Limiting the team to 5 makes it way more frustrating when you find the Pollaxe that rocks...

 

Not a problem for people like me who always switch party members.  There were 11 companions + the player character in PoE1, so I had plenty of use for most of the good weapons I found.  I'll do the same in PoE2.