Politics 2017 Part 3

[Deadly_Nightshade]

 

Just sayin'

 

On all 50 States I should add.

[Malcador]

It's definitely true about the lawless chaos.

Well, I suppose Slaanesh is strong, but maybe we have differing definitions of chaos. Seems to be same thing as rural types seeing every big city as Escape from NY.

[Longknife]

 

I haven't been back here in a while and serious question: how can you guys keep going...?

Aren't you even a bit curious where things are heading?

Middle-ground in politics has been slowly disappearing for a while now.

This thread may be a glimpse into political future of US. 

 

Doesn't take a genius to see where things are going, and I still pay attention.

 

I just meant more that even if this thread were a bastion of sound, respectable discussion, the biggest and worst problem to me is that identity politics have gotten absurd. Even if we recognized that US politics desperately need calm, rational and respectable discussion, we're just a small group of people, and the masses are just absolutely at each other's throats around the clock while the big political players and corporations pull the puppet strings behind it all as the media gladly converts itself to a propaganda machine.

 

Take a look at this. The other day I saw some discussion about if X group was a cult, and it made me remember that aside from the standard practice that often small religious groups are called cults, there is an official definition and a rough outline of how cults behave. It hit me like a ton of bricks that sadly, many of those cult definitions apply to both Democrats and Republicans respectively, or the philosophy behind the warnings holds true for how the parties act in regards to each other now.

 

Both parties lack accountability and refuse to even admit when they were wrong, even when the evidence is overwhelmingly obvious and even when many of their own members wish they'd acknowledge the mistake; this is no longer a trait reserved for slimey politicians, this extends to many of the voters to a degree not seen before. Both parties are to the point where if you question them or become critical of them, you're likely to be labeled as someone from the opposition and ejected from the discussion or ignored (ie, Republican senators refusing town halls). Both parties have questionable financial ties that are highly alarming; I'm not even talking standard lobbying where Senator X took this amount of money to promote big oil, I'm talking people like Clinton and McCain have foundations where money goes through some very shady pockets and we're not sure where it goes or what ends they serve. Both parties fear the worst at this point; best example is many people think Trump is the next Hitler and that the USA will actually become a fascist dictatorship, or the countless times I see stories claiming Germany has muslims with guns running rampant on the streets and woops it was a party with gas pistols. Both parties, because of their reluctancy to acknowledge the faults of their own party, heavily frown upon those that leave and cannot sympathize with why they might leave, instead opting to demonize such people and name them racists or "libtards"; I'd like to switch from a Democrat to an Independent, but if I said that where friends and family could hear me, I'd have less friends and family and probably endure a number of accusations I was racist. And I'm sure all of us can relate to trying to be a part of a political discussion and almost immediately one side or another has mistreated you, attempted to silence you or even censored you for voicing an opinion they didn't like. The last three points on the list are geared a bit more towards a religious cult so don't apply here, and I'm not trying to say Democrats and Republicans are -actually- cults, but the fact they share any of the same mechanics to ANY reasonable degree is rather alarming to me. US politics has always been ****, but yes, absolutely, this is getting worse. This is not the ****ty US politics I'm used to rolling my eyes at, this is some dangerous **** we're dealing with, where the very tools for progress (discussion, respect, democracy, etc) are hardly in play.

 

The issue now is that like a cult...well, we're not exactly all at work breaking down Scientology or the Westboro Baptist Church, are we? No, we know that'll do no good, and that these only die out over time when enough members realize the absurdity and realize it's time to walk. There's no use trying to reason with them because they'd never listen, but hopefully the realize it on their own someday. The problem now is we're not talking about some tiny fringe group we can ignore, we're talking about the two biggest political parties in the United States. There's a lot of potential for this to drag on for decades and there's a lot of potential for serious damage to be done. FFS the Democratic party would rather taunt Russia into a potential war instead of admit they were corrupt. For the first time in my life, my own party (not all supporters of course, but I'm talking the establishment majority and a huge meaningful chunk of supporters) is upset at the idea of breaking down barriers with Russia and actively encourages us to escalate the situation with them. It's mind-numbingly absurd.

 

I sit here hating it because I hate feeling like things are absolutely out of my control and I cannot do anything to change it. I mean look, I'm just one guy, but at least in the past I could voice my opinion and "do my part" as a citizen in my community and amongst my peers. Now? The moment I even open my mouth to talk politics, there's someone that doesn't want me having a discussion, whether it be some asshat shill being paid to do that on web forums, or a friend I've long known that now feels they're "doing the right thing and being a good person" by discouraging any and all dissenting opinions. I never thought I'd see the day where I had American friends using the term "mansplaining" in regards to political conversations while we're on the phone, or when some of my most intelligent and respected friends are taking part in some outrageously hateful protests or local political acts. How do you even begin to solve a problem when the very methods you need to solve it are denied to you?

 

I'm just some average joe. I was never gonna solve the problem anyways. And while I'm sure there's plenty of smarter people out there that could come up with a solution better and faster than I ever could, I do think they're probably encountering the same issues I am, and that honestly really scares me. I have no idea how the USA is gonna improve from this point in time. All I know is what it desperately needs is a candidate like Bernie Sanders (which I'm certain the establishment politicians and their funders would rather see lose to an establishment Republican than let him win) - Democrat or Republican - that largely refuses to participate in identity politics while sticking to the issues, or if not that, any politician that understands the dire importance of preferencial voting to allow 3rd parties to grow. (aka nobody) Last election we debated if voting for Green or Libertarian was pointless, but for 2020, I honestly think splitting either of the big two parties is the best god damned gift we could give the country, even if it means letting your side lose a couple elections.

[BruceVC]

Hm, true, though at least it's nuanced self pleasuring with the others. Apparently Trump is the reason behind Intel, Fiat, Lockheed and other corporations investing in the US, the DJIA being up 3k points and others. Also apparently there is lawless chaos all over the US ?

But I do think his overall speech was a positive one, he condemned bigotry and mentioned the USA  needing to unify or other similar things and he did receive positive feedback from most polls 

[Ben No.3]

@Longknife

An excellent Diagnosis. I think I might just add some thoughts, though i don't pretend to have the same insight as you appear to have.

 

I think the situation you describe is an inevitable consequence of both having only two major parties and that those two parties are, politically, in fact very close to each other. Because their differences are, on average, not tremendously big and they are the only parties, this creates a situation where they don't have to cooperate at all.

 

Because they are ideologically fairly close, the elections will also become elections of emotion by reason. The dogma, the villainification (is that a word? I think you know what I mean...) of the other, and the almost complete absence of reasonable discussion are the consequence.

 

You don't only need more parties, you also need more parties on the political spectrum than just Center/Center Right (though admittedly Trump and his cabinet seem to turn out more conservative than the average).

[Malcador]

I did like the small bits of laughter when he mentioned draining the swamp. Kind of disappointing to hear that in a speech at that level but that's where we are now I guess

[BruceVC]

I did like the small bits of laughter when he mentioned draining the swamp. Kind of disappointing to hear that in a speech at that level but that's where we are now I guess

Remember the old  " draining the swamp "  from the presidential race, he definitely hasn't achieved much on that front  

[Ben No.3]

Why would Trump want to drain te swamp? He is part of the swamp, and I bet you he likes the swamp as well.

[Wrath of Dagon]

Speech apparently well received, but from the reports I read no indication of a pragmatic approach we need to start dealing with the many problems of this country.

[BruceVC]

Speech apparently well received, but from the reports I read no indication of a pragmatic approach we need to start dealing with the many problems of this country.

The speech was good but what do you think are the problems he should be attending to first?

 

He is looking at reforming Obamacare, tax cuts for the middle class, he wants to rebuild the military and destroy ISIS amongst other things 

[Wrath of Dagon]

 

Speech apparently well received, but from the reports I read no indication of a pragmatic approach we need to start dealing with the many problems of this country.

The speech was good but what do you think are the problems he should be attending to first?

 

He is looking at reforming Obamacare, tax cuts for the middle class, he wants to rebuild the military and destroy ISIS amongst other things

 

Those are actually the problems that need addressing. The issue is the Republican ideologues in Congress which will not agree to anything sensible. On Obamacare, they want to simply get rid of it, regardless of people who can't afford medical insurance. On tax cuts, Republicans including Trump, want a huge tax cut and at the same time increased military spending. In addition Trump wants a 1 trillion infrastructure plan, government paid family leave, and assorted other spending increases. All this while we already have a budget deficit that's projected to grow without bound, and a huge amount of unfunded future liabilities. Meanwhile, no one is even talking about bringing medical costs under control, which is the main driver of the budget problems.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Speech apparently well received, but from the reports I read no indication of a pragmatic approach we need to start dealing with the many problems of this country.

The speech was good but what do you think are the problems he should be attending to first?

 

He is looking at reforming Obamacare, tax cuts for the middle class, he wants to rebuild the military and destroy ISIS amongst other things

 

Those are actually the problems that need addressing. The issue is the Republican ideologues in Congress which will not agree to anything sensible. On Obamacare, they want to simply get rid of it, regardless of people who can't afford medical insurance. On tax cuts, Republicans including Trump, want a huge tax cut and at the same time increased military spending. In addition Trump wants a 1 trillion infrastructure plan, government paid family leave, and assorted other spending increases. All this while we already have a budget deficit that's projected to grow without bound, and a huge amount of unfunded future liabilities. Meanwhile, no one is even talking about bringing medical costs under control, which is the main driver of the budget problems.

 

You raise some valid considerations . I share some of your concerns

[Ben No.3]

Look, WOD sees the problems with having a right wing politician as the man of the working class

You can't have both a deregulated economy and a cared for working class. You can't have both low taxes and fair distribution of wealth, i.e. a large middle class.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Ben No.3

[213374U]

 

I don't see this as an Icarus story. This is a guy undone by his own nature.

 

He lived off of saying controversial things. It was never an issue up until it was decided overnight that its time for it to become an issue. 

 

Literally overnight.

 

http://archive.is/Rhjcj (note timestamp)

 

In the end he's just a pawn, and throwing him under the bus was easier than the alternative. But by doing so they are playing into the shaming game the "establishment/MSM" are running.

[Wrath of Dagon]

I don't think Milo was that important to "the movement". It's going to live or die by what Trump and Republicans in Congress do.

[Volourn]

The 'movement' won the moment Trump got the presidency.

 

That was a HUGE FU to the 'establishment' even though Trump has BIGLY ties to the establishment but the establishment didn't want him. L0L Politics L0L

[HoonDing]

"Those are actually the problems that need addressing. The issue is the Republican ideologues in Congress which will not agree to anything sensible. On Obamacare, they want to simply get rid of it, regardless of people who can't afford medical insurance. On tax cuts, Republicans including Trump, want a huge tax cut and at the same time increased military spending. In addition Trump wants a 1 trillion infrastructure plan, government paid family leave, and assorted other spending increases. All this while we already have a budget deficit that's projected to grow without bound, and a huge amount of unfunded future liabilities. Meanwhile, no one is even talking about bringing medical costs under control, which is the main driver of the budget problems."

 

Maybe he thinks he can just empty Fort Knox.

[BruceVC]

The 'movement' won the moment Trump got the presidency.

 

That was a HUGE FU to the 'establishment' even though Trump has BIGLY ties to the establishment but the establishment didn't want him. L0L Politics L0L

What are the objectives of the  " movement  ", if they won what are the outcomes for this victory?

[Longknife]

The 'movement' won the moment Trump got the presidency.

 

That was a HUGE FU to the 'establishment' even though Trump has BIGLY ties to the establishment but the establishment didn't want him. L0L Politics L0L

 

It won't do jack if those same establishment players adapt their bets to co-align with him, which they're already doing.

 

This isn't progress, this is "we could've fallen off Mt. Everest but instead we only fell off K2."

[Raithe]

On the random innocent-whistling on some of the political spectrum..

 

[Chilloutman]

[Blarghagh]

At 33 pages this one's overdue. Say goodnight to this thread, make a new one if you want.