Planescape: Torment is PC Gamer's Bestest RPG of All Time

[Ganrich]

Torment, Fallout and Arcanum seemed to carve another path that started back along the road of ambition and variety, but it seems they have been mostly abandoned unfortunately.

Just wanted to riff off this. The ambition and scope of these 3 titles are what I really miss. Particularly with Arcanum and Fallout. Blank Slate character, open world, bypassable combat with the right skills, interesting setting, etc. they drop you in the game and let you role play a character. I can't help but wonder if the 3D technology (and the price of developing with it) keeps smaller top down efforts to recapture the ambition of these titles. I don't know. If any developer hits Kickstarter with efforts to do something like Arcanum or Fallout... I will do everything I can to fund it heavily.

[majestic]

Ah, now, see... Arcanum is a title that is utterly unmade by the terrible (combat) mechanics while ToEE is a title that is utterly unmade by all the elements that aren't combat. I kind of wish that someone would combine the two into one actually playable game.

[Ganrich]

Ah, now, see... Arcanum is a title that is utterly unmade by the terrible (combat) mechanics while ToEE is a title that is utterly unmade by all the elements that aren't combat. I kind of wish that someone would combine the two into one actually playable game.

You just described my dream game, pretty much.

 

Take ToEEs combat, Arcanum's setting and tone, Arcanum's open class system with magic vs tech theme, slam them together, say good bye to real life.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

 

Ah, now, see... Arcanum is a title that is utterly unmade by the terrible (combat) mechanics while ToEE is a title that is utterly unmade by all the elements that aren't combat. I kind of wish that someone would combine the two into one actually playable game.

You just described my dream game, pretty much.

 

Take ToEEs combat, Arcanum's setting and tone, Arcanum's open class system with magic vs tech theme, slam them together, say good bye to real life.

 

w0rd. I did prefer PS:T plot and narrative to Arcanum's though.

 

Thus far, Divinity: Original Sin has taken up the torch. If they could improve their writing and perhaps strike a dramatic rather than farcical tone, they will be king of the hill. That being said, I did enjoy D:OS for what it was--pure fun!

[WDeranged]

Loved PS:T but I dunno if it's the best RPG ever, best RPG writing perhaps.

[Fenixp]

Just wanted to riff off this. The ambition and scope of these 3 titles are what I really miss. Particularly with Arcanum and Fallout. Blank Slate character, open world, bypassable combat with the right skills, interesting setting, etc. they drop you in the game and let you role play a character.

There's UnderRail, there's Shadowrun games, there's Age of Decadence - if anything, these games are slowly resurfacing again, which is making me extremely happy. Still, let's be honest - it's not like there's ever been overabundance of such titles.

 

Terrible gameplay though. I would pick any of their top four over Torment because of the gameplay.

I'd argue that dialogues were Planescape's gameplay. "Gameplay" doesn't need to automatically imply murdering things. Edited December 20, 2015 by Fenixp

[Ganrich]

Haven't played Age of Decadence yet, but it's on my radar. From what I have read it is fairly open in many ways, and I am excited to get into it.

 

I have only just started fiddling with Underrail. I'm not saying that turn based games don't get made, but that they don't get made like Arcanum or the first 2 Fallout games anymore. No one tries to give you an open map to explore. It is missions (like Shadowrun) or a linear storyline like many others (Pillars of Eternity). That's fine, and I enjoy them. However, Those 3 titles Nonek mentioned gave you an objective and dropped you into the world, and let you go explore or get right to the main mission.

 

That's what I miss. The sense of wonder, of exploration, and not being railroaded down a story which, let's face it, ain't gonna be PST level story telling 99 times out of 100. Hell, the odds are probably much worse than 99 outta 100.

[Fenixp]

Oh yeah, you're right, I somehow forgot that Shadowrun is a very linear game. Stupid me. Still, I thought UnderRail was supposed to be a very open game. I have not played it myself, just info I got from friends who did so it might be entirely incorrect. And yeah, I can certainly say that Age of Decadence is excellent, albeit flawed.

 

As for games which give you an objective and allow you to explore, New Vegas comes to mind. There's a whole lot of Bethesda games based around this premise, but I suspect you also want meaningful interactions with NPCs for your RPG games, otherwise you'd most likely note their existence.

 

I'm mentioning Bethesda titles because the last game which gave me huge sense of wanderlust (aside from Age of Decadence - its world is constructed so well that there's no way you wouldn't want to find out more about it) was probably Skyrim with mods to remove distracting crap like the compass. Then there are STALKER games, but STALKER games should be mentioned everywhere, all the time. When somebody asks for recommendations for story-based adventure game with no combat, you recommend STALKER and they're gonna like it.

[Ganrich]

Yeah, I've played all that. I'm not huge on Bethesda these days, but I enjoyed a romp through Skyrim when it came out. I do want meaningful NPC interactions. Bethesda doesn't want that anymore. So me and Bethesda must part ways until FO4, and any future games, are dirt cheap.

 

STALKER is phenomenal, and I agree that it always needs recommending. I feel the same about New Vegas, though.

 

I am not sure if Underrail is linear or open, but I like what I see. I am going to try and get a few minutes play time tomorrow. This time of year is working, shopping for presents, and small get togethers with friends and family. No time for games lol.

[Majek]

Wait what, you people actually care what PC gamer writes? Crazy.

[rjshae]

Tastes vary, I guess. I've tried Planescape Torment three times and couldn't really get interested long enough to stick with it. Still don't see what the fuss is about; it's just an oddball setting with few redeeming qualities. PT wouldn't even make my top 25 list. Baldur's Gate should be high on their list instead--not just BG2.

[Gizmo]

Tastes vary, I guess. I've tried Planescape Torment three times and couldn't really get interested long enough to stick with it. Still don't see what the fuss is about; it's just an oddball setting with few redeeming qualities. PT wouldn't even make my top 25 list. Baldur's Gate should be high on their list instead--not just BG2.

Part of the fuss is about the story as it unfolds, and another part is how the PC development, and dialog choices affect the game. The setting is an icing on the cake.

[Longknife]

A friend of mine bought this recently.

 

 

What stats should I advise her to get so that she can get a good view of the story (sounds like there's speech checks based on stats?) while still having tolerable gameplay?

[Gfted1]

A friend of mine bought this recently.

 

 

What stats should I advise her to get so that she can get a good view of the story (sounds like there's speech checks based on stats?) while still having tolerable gameplay?

Post 13 has a pretty good explanation.

[majestic]

A friend of mine bought this recently.

 

 

What stats should I advise her to get so that she can get a good view of the story (sounds like there's speech checks based on stats?) while still having tolerable gameplay?

 

Starting with 18 in WIS is a must, then distribute among INT and CHA. CHA is a little less important than INT. Focus on WIS while leveling up, get it to 25 as soon as possible (that includes some easy to find early boni to the stat). If I remember correctly the highest INT check is 21, so make that your second priority then work on CHA.

 

The rest of the stats can easily be ignored. Look for a certain NPC that can help you become a mage so that you get most out of the stats - just make sure she is a mage before hitting level 7 (there's a stat level-up bonus that otherwise will go to STR as fighter or DEX as thief) so you get a point in INT as a freebie.

 

Talk to your companions early and often, they all and you gain massive stat improvements through dialog.

 

If you're worried about starting with annoyingly low physical stats you can drop a few points into DEX, maybe start with 15 (that's enough for the entire game). That also helps with playing an evil TNO if you're so inclined, but it's not really necessary. TNO *is* immortal after all and the only downside to dying is that you need to walk back a bit.

 

Unlike in other RPGs, being an evil bastard in Torment is a bit different. You're not just evil for the lulz. You'll end up being a really, really terrible person. Especially to your companions. Heh.

 

EVUL SPOILAH:

 

 

The single most evil action - at least according to the alignment meter - you can do in Torment is to release COAXMETAL, an iron golem forging weapons with the explicit purpose to unmake the planes. The dialogue flat out tells you he does this in service of entropy who order is close to chaining. It's pretty much implied that by releasing him you're dooming the planes to a long, painful death. Yeah, but what do you care, right? *shrug*

 

Edited December 21, 2015 by majestic

[Majek]

Despite that, i don't think you can reach the level of Practical Incarnation. That guy was something else. :D

[Humanoid]

Even back when I liked the IE games, probably just after I played IWD2, I tried to go back to BG1 and found it unplayable. :|

[majestic]

Despite that, i don't think you can reach the level of Practical Incarnation. That guy was something else. :D

 

Oh, yes, there's no doubt about that. The Practical Incarnation was magnificent in his... practicality, unfettered by any moral consideration.

 

 

The kicker is after you spend much of the game learning just how much of an evil magnificent bastard the Practical Incarnation was the Good Incarnation comes along and says: "Compared to mine, his crimes are merely a drop in the ocean."

 

[Nonek]

 

I still wonder whether the original incarnation was the one who trained Ignus in the art, as I recall you don't get to ask him, and surprisingly enough it wasn't the Practical One. Also Es Annon is something that leaves me wondering, just why exactly does that place echo so strongly with Nameless? The mark of a great game, it births more questions than it answers.

 

[Gromnir]

 "The mark of a great game, it births more questions than it answers."

 

can't express how much we disagree.  for good story, all major questions should be resolved and conclusion, while inevitable and perfect in retrospect, shoulda' been evoking surprise and wonder in the reader. am not a huge fan o' the ambiguous resolution, but that is the one case we seen for leaving an unanswered question.  regardless, with possible single exception, for good story, all questions should have answers.

 

a game, with an anticipated (but failed) sequel due to insufficient sales is gonna have unanswered questions.  however, as often as not, such unanswered questions is a result o' lazy writing or cut content.  kotor 2 were not made better 'cause o' mysteries surrounding hk droids.  such questions were intended to have answers in any event.  game did not become superior 'cause answers were brutal amputated.  no doubt can see the slippery slope ahead, yes?

 

we will observe that in recognizing the excessive (but necessary?) exposition and philosophy-for-dummies approach o' ps:t, a few questions initiated in game were unanswerable... but that were a function  o' the setting as much as bad writing.  outside o' a philosophy primer or textbook, is not the job o' writer to specific ask the reader consider meaning and value.  reader should discover the questions for themselves.  

 

regardless, we cannot disagree more 'bout the birthing o' questions.  takes no skill at all to birth.  to raise and nurture such questions... to surprise reader with the maturation o' forgotten or seeming inconsequential questions... well, that takes skill and art.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Nonek]

I disagree categorically. Torment achieves many satisfying resolutions in spades, it however also leaves so many questions unanswered due to the nature of Nameless' condition and resolution, and prompts interest in both the setting and the game through doing so. Personally I prefer the unanswered questions and prefer a little mystery and speculation, leaves a little room for the imagination to fill in the gaps, and the audience to be kept on the edge of their seat. Unless seats are not edgy enough for them.

 

Whole centuries of lifetimes lie behind the Nameless One come the end, I don't think there'd be enough time for a dry recitation of every fact from every one, and it would probably bore one stiff and destroy the pacing of the Fortress of Regrets.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Nonek

[Gromnir]

being able to imagine countless nameless one lives is not leaving questions unanswered, but we will put it in nerdish: leave question o' luke skywalker parentage unanswered woulda' been better?  

 

the pieces the writer puts forth should all fit together.  leave gaps is lazy or mistake.  is impossible to say with certainty that your imagined resolutions would be superior to the author if he had bothered to put forth the requisite effort.  regardless, is the writer's job to craft the story. if is superior by leaving "more questions than it answers," then there weren't no point to having the writer put pen to paper.  coulda' left nonek to imagine the whole damn thing and call it Genius.  

 

"once upon a time, a man awoke in a morgue with the realization that he had cheated death hundreds and perhaps thousands o' times..."

 

30

 

the end

 

whatever

 

call it a day.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Nonek]

That's not what the game did.

[Gromnir]

it did, many times.  you gave examples where it did such.

 

*shrug*

 

writers do rely on the imagination o' the reader.  is not same as leaving unanswered questions.  give limited or no physical description o' some horrific or mythical beastie?  sure.  let reader fill in such details is much different than filling in story.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Majek]

 

Despite that, i don't think you can reach the level of Practical Incarnation. That guy was something else. :D

 

Oh, yes, there's no doubt about that. The Practical Incarnation was magnificent in his... practicality, unfettered by any moral consideration.

 

 

The kicker is after you spend much of the game learning just how much of an evil magnificent bastard the Practical Incarnation was the Good Incarnation comes along and says: "Compared to mine, his crimes are merely a drop in the ocean."

 

 

At least practical tells you about things... :D