Battletech

[Gfted1]

If this wiki entry is accurate, most military satellites reside in geostationary orbit, which is well outside the range of most space junk. A robust AI is years away but in the meantime we can slap a FLIR or camera on it and set it up for human remote control like our aerial drones.

[Gromnir]

Drones are anything robotic, no? But theres definately room in my heart for both aerial and land drones. And aquatic! We need to physically remove the human from all our warfighing capabilities imo.

fighter aircraft performance is already exceeding the limits o' human tolerance, so we can see that sorta thing happening in distant-but-foreseeable future.  you may have a longer wait to be complete removing human combatants. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gorgon]

If this wiki entry is accurate, most military satellites reside in geostationary orbit, which is well outside the range of most space junk. A robust AI is years away but in the meantime we can slap a FLIR or camera on it and set it up for human remote control like our aerial drones.

i imagine they are only safe until someone decides to shoot a missile at them. the sattelites that is. As that capacity emerges they are going to get increasingly voulneravle. An end result might well be a debris cloud lethal to sattelites.

[213374U]

I disagree. Jury is still out on how robots are going to wind up moving around. Insect based movement has been the most promising so far, but then this also reflected the limitations of our time. 

 

It might be that emulating any movement system, including bipedal or non thrust flight (flapping robot wings) or whatever might be entirely trivial once we have reached the practical limit of More's Law. They say that might be sooner than later, but who knows. 

 

Aaaaand it's science time!

 

Just scaling up insects doesn't work so well because the size-mass ratio is a power law. Consider this: some insects can walk on water, because even though their weight is distributed more or less evenly between 6-8 small limbs, the pressure they exert isn't enough to break water's surface tension. On the other hand, a present day 60-ton main battle tank whose weight is distributed along large tracks can often put enough pressure on the ground to destroy paved roads. Nature is full of these "tricks" that work provided the organism weighs little, but scaling them to human size or larger is a no-go.

 

Even if miniaturization, materials science and engineering could overcome the huge physical challenges posed by simply scaling stuff up, operating a 100-ton bipedal mech outside of a low-gravity world would probably be too risky.

 

 

[GhoulishVisage]

Which makes me wonder: What would a creature the size of a human that had an exoskeleton look like and how would it operate?

[Keyrock]

This is very likely going to be Harebrained Schemes' most successful Kickstarter campaign, and rightly so, Battletech is awesome and the company has delivered every time out so far (my knowledge of Golem Arcana is only from hearsay, admittedly).  I'll be surprised if this doesn't break 2.5 million.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Keyrock

[Gorgon]

 

I disagree. Jury is still out on how robots are going to wind up moving around. Insect based movement has been the most promising so far, but then this also reflected the limitations of our time. 

 

It might be that emulating any movement system, including bipedal or non thrust flight (flapping robot wings) or whatever might be entirely trivial once we have reached the practical limit of More's Law. They say that might be sooner than later, but who knows. 

 

Aaaaand it's science time!

 

Just scaling up insects doesn't work so well because the size-mass ratio is a power law. Consider this: some insects can walk on water, because even though their weight is distributed more or less evenly between 6-8 small limbs, the pressure they exert isn't enough to break water's surface tension. On the other hand, a present day 60-ton main battle tank whose weight is distributed along large tracks can often put enough pressure on the ground to destroy paved roads. Nature is full of these "tricks" that work provided the organism weighs little, but scaling them to human size or larger is a no-go.

 

Even if miniaturization, materials science and engineering could overcome the huge physical challenges posed by simply scaling stuff up, operating a 100-ton bipedal mech outside of a low-gravity world would probably be too risky.

 

 

 

Wasn't specifically talking about Mechs, just robots and how they are going to move around.  Wheels and tracks are great for crossing unobscructed ground but for anything else there are a limited number of strategies involving legs that evolution seems to think are very effective, insect movement is a good choice for a Mars rover that can climb, interact, what have you. 

 

It's entirely unnecessary for anything to be as big as a Mech, but since we are imagning how one would move around. Well, a T Rex is/was a biped. 

 

We are also talking about insects made of superstrenght alloys, not that i think giant scorpion robots would be a good strategy, but I think it's entirely possible to engineer one that wouldn't collapse under its own weight. 

[ShadySands]

Now I'm curious as to what you guys think would be the best realistic mobile giant weapons platform

[Keyrock]

I'm no propulsion or mechanical expert, but I still think a spider-like mech makes the most sense.  It's a very stable platform, its legs are spread out far enough that it can simply step over many obstacles, it can easily lower and lift its torso, allowing for easy loading and unloading and even potentially dodging of fire, and it can remain upright and continue moving (albeit with reduced stability) even after losing a leg or two.

 

It's obviously not the ideal solution for all situations, a wheeled or tracked vehicle may be better in certain situations, but overall a spider tank design seems to me the best compromise between stability, maneuverability, speed, and ability to overcome obstacles.

Edited October 3, 2015 by Keyrock

[213374U]

Wasn't specifically talking about Mechs, just robots and how they are going to move around.  Wheels and tracks are great for crossing unobscructed ground but for anything else there are a limited number of strategies involving legs that evolution seems to think are very effective, insect movement is a good choice for a Mars rover that can climb, interact, what have you. 

 

It's entirely unnecessary for anything to be as big as a Mech, but since we are imagning how one would move around. Well, a T Rex is/was a biped. 

 

We are also talking about insects made of superstrenght alloys, not that i think giant scorpion robots would be a good strategy, but I think it's entirely possible to engineer one that wouldn't collapse under its own weight. 

 

A T-Rex's top speed is estimated to be around 30 km/h and weighed about 6 tons, just a tenth of a present day MBT. In order to accelerate something like a T-Rex to 60-80 km/h, you'd need to apply tremendous force on the ground. If it's bipedal, the pressure on the ground is twice as great as for a quadrupedal creature and it has exactly half as much stability.

 

An elephant that trips and falls can sustain life-threatening injuries. An elephant can run at ~40 km/h and weighs no more than 10 tons, which is about half as much as the lightest 'mechs and just 10% the mass of the heaviest variants, from what I've read. Comparing an animal to a fictional future tank is not exactly a sound argument, but the physics are the same and in the event of a crash, slip, trip or similar mishap, you can bet it would suffer major damage.

 

So yeah, not necessarily impossible, but hella impractical and unnecessarily complicated, so unlikely to ever be built for any reasons, which was the original sticking point.

 

 

 

 

Now I'm curious as to what you guys think would be the best realistic mobile giant weapons platform

 

 

 

(loses badly to cyborg ninjas with raspy voices though )

 

 

Regarding the KS, seems to have slowed down a bit. I have little doubt they'll get to 1.85M but the MP PVP stretch goal is probably beyond what they can muster.

[Keyrock]

Another advantage of a spider-like design; the entire vehicle doesn't need to turn to change direction.  An eight-legged (six-legged would likely work too) vehicle can strafe quite well.  Really, it can move in almost any direction just as well.  Make the torso roughly circular and divide it just above where the legs connect to it and make it so that it can rotate 360°, then when the spider tank needs to change direction it can just immediately start moving in that direction, just as fast as any other direction, and the torso, with the c0ckpit and whatever weapons mounted on it, rotates to face whatever direction you are now moving and that becomes the new forward.  The vehicle effectively has no front, no back, no sides; front is whatever way you want it to be.  Also, like with today's tanks, you can move in one direction while facing a different direction, firing at an enemy while moving laterally or away from it, or whatever angle.

 

Edit:  The downside to this design is that the area where the torso is divided in half so that it can rotate would obviously be a structural weak point.  It's not perfect.  Maybe some kind of stationary armored plate, like a lip, could be mounted to the lower part of the torso to overlap the division for protection.

Edited October 3, 2015 by Keyrock

[Gromnir]

Now I'm curious as to what you guys think would be the best realistic mobile giant weapons platform

the giant mobile weapon platform is a questionable proposition in and of itself.  why?  to combat godzilla? even modern mbt are designed with the notion o' reducing target profile and increasing speed. a tall weapon platform gives greater visibility, but also makes a nice target. and the giant-sized weapon platform is gonna carry such a price tag, no?  can make a dozen or hundred smaller units v. the single giant?  so, why?

 

and the notion that a legged robot offers greater maneuverability than tracks or wheels is also suspect as it depends on terrain.   oh no, the mech's foot is stuck in a hole. whatever will we do?  make a bunch o mech-foot sized holes to thwart mech advance?

 

is likely that future "giant" weapon platforms will look a bit like this

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/MBT-70_Aberdeen_Speed_Test.JPG

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited October 3, 2015 by Gromnir

[Majek]

Now I'm curious as to what you guys think would be the best realistic mobile giant weapons platform

let's start small :D :D :D

[Lexx]

I can't stop thinking about this stupid thing.

[Gorgon]

 

Wasn't specifically talking about Mechs, just robots and how they are going to move around.  Wheels and tracks are great for crossing unobscructed ground but for anything else there are a limited number of strategies involving legs that evolution seems to think are very effective, insect movement is a good choice for a Mars rover that can climb, interact, what have you. 

 

It's entirely unnecessary for anything to be as big as a Mech, but since we are imagning how one would move around. Well, a T Rex is/was a biped. 

 

We are also talking about insects made of superstrenght alloys, not that i think giant scorpion robots would be a good strategy, but I think it's entirely possible to engineer one that wouldn't collapse under its own weight. 

 

A T-Rex's top speed is estimated to be around 30 km/h and weighed about 6 tons, just a tenth of a present day MBT. In order to accelerate something like a T-Rex to 60-80 km/h, you'd need to apply tremendous force on the ground. If it's bipedal, the pressure on the ground is twice as great as for a quadrupedal creature and it has exactly half as much stability.

 

An elephant that trips and falls can sustain life-threatening injuries. An elephant can run at ~40 km/h and weighs no more than 10 tons, which is about half as much as the lightest 'mechs and just 10% the mass of the heaviest variants, from what I've read. Comparing an animal to a fictional future tank is not exactly a sound argument, but the physics are the same and in the event of a crash, slip, trip or similar mishap, you can bet it would suffer major damage.

 

So yeah, not necessarily impossible, but hella impractical and unnecessarily complicated, so unlikely to ever be built for any reasons, which was the original sticking point.

 

 

 

 

Now I'm curious as to what you guys think would be the best realistic mobile giant weapons platform

 

 

 

(loses badly to cyborg ninjas with raspy voices though )

 

 

Regarding the KS, seems to have slowed down a bit. I have little doubt they'll get to 1.85M but the MP PVP stretch goal is probably beyond what they can muster.

 

It is quite true that gravity doesn't scale, so when you built something huge, like a construction crane, you use structural engineering. A radio tower triangular structure for example is enormously strong and flexible, the tallest one is 2000 feet. If you do away with the notion of a thick armored exoskelleton, and use a combination of reactive armor, layered armor, and light plate instead. Multiple structural redundancies. Something built to survive a hit rather than prevent one entirely. 

[ShadySands]

Expanded merc campaign has been unlocked

 

The STAGE 3 EXPANDED MERCENARY CAMPAIGN puts you in full control of your life as a mercenary.

 

The single-player story campaign is now open-ended - charter JumpShip transport for your mercenary outfit to travel to various hot-zones across the Periphery and Inner Sphere, and continue your career even after the game's main story arc is resolved.

You’ll be able to choose your contracts and alliances, with both the 5 Great Houses and other sub-factions within the Inner Sphere.

A procedural contract-generation system will ensure that you always have fresh contracts available, wherever your Mercenary career may take you.

The missions you choose to accept and the objectives competed in those missions will determine your reputation as a mercenary, affecting the contracts and contract terms you may be offered in the future.

Funding Goals Update

 

Now, MechWarriors, it’s ONWARD towards our next major objective: STAGE 4 - PVP Multiplayer!

 

HBS Command has identified two high-value targets on our march to STAGE 4.

 

$2,000,000 - Customizable Home Base: As part of the ongoing campaign, you'll acquire a home base (likely in the form of a derelict DropShip) for your mercenary outfit to call home. At this funding level we'll also allow you to adjust its appearance, repair and upgrade its functionality, and grow and evolve your base as your outfit grows and evolves.  

$2,150,000 - Legendary 'Mech & MechWarriors: In addition to the game's standard 'Mechs and customizable, procedurally-generated MechWarriors, we'll include rare legendary 'Mechs to find, and rare hero MechWarriors to hire - including some famous characters from BattleTech history. Such legends may not stick around for long, but will be well worth hiring if you can afford them.

 

I'm somewhat underwhelmed that there are only 2 stretch goals and also by the second goal

 

Anyway, only 16 days left

Edited October 18, 2015 by ShadySands

[Lexx]

Pretty sure they already made it over what's on the kickstarter site, as PayPal doesn't fall into the counter (I gave my monis via PayPal as well).

Edited October 17, 2015 by Lexx

[213374U]

Expanding merc campaign has been unlocked

[snip]

 

I'm somewhat underwhelmed that there are only 2 stretch goals and also by the second goal

 

Anyway, only 16 days left

 

Huh. I checked this yesterday, it was at ~1.7M. Nice bump!

 

Still doubt they'll make it to 2.5M... and it's probably for the best too.

[majestic]

Ideally they'll end just a dollar shy of their multiplayer goal. If I want to multiplayer BattleTech I'd do it in the old-school way.

[Hurlshort]

Excited about more campaign stuff, hoping they get the home base option.

[ShadySands]

Looking forward to finding the perfect drapes for my dropship but I also kinda hope they don't hit the PVP goal. Is that bad? 

[Gromnir]

Looking forward to finding the perfect drapes for my dropship but I also kinda hope they don't hit the PVP goal. Is that bad? 

it might be bad, but am in agreement.  we got no interest in battletech pvp.  also, implementing pvp, once promised, could require disproportionate resources.  "best laid plans..." and all that. it is possible that by reaching the goal for pvp, the sp game will suffer.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Vaeliorin]

Allow me to add my voice to the hopes of falling just shy of the PVP goal.  I have no interest in PVP, and would rather not have to deal with PVP-related balancing issues.

[Lexx]

What I wouldn't mind, though, is PVE coop mode. :>

[Majek]

Hehehe i guess we're all in the "don't reach the PVP goal" group. More power to Single player though Lexx's idea is not bad at all.