Greece, EU and why we can't have nice things

[teknoman2]

 

 

 

 

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2015-07-06/greek-finance-minister-yanis-varoufakis-resigns/

 

 

Unbelievable, so one of the main proponents and architects of the referendum, the Greek finance  minister, has resigned 

 

He claims it will be easier to negotiate better terms on the loans if he isn't involved. This is UTTER BS....the issues with the loans are not to due to clashes of personality but structural around the actual terms of the payments 

 

I don't believe it will make any  difference who Greek sends to renegotiate the terms... there will always be certain conditions that Greece has to adhere to. I just find it concerning Varoufakis seems to be jumping ship when we will now see the true impact of the NO vote 

 

He did say that actions of Greece's debtors are terrorism, so I would guess that he would not get most warmest welcome in meetings with other eurozone's finance ministers. Meaning that if Greece hopes to have any change in any negotiations with their debtors he probably should not be part of those negotiations. 

 

 

Yeah I have heard that argument, hopefully that is exactly the reason and outcome

 

But the issue is he represented a certain symbolism around the Greek defiance. Many Greeks really liked him and believed what he said 

 

Now the rhetoric is over and the NO vote has won he resigns...what does that  say about the  veracity and credibility of the  NO argument ?

 

Surly for the all the millions of Greeks who stood by his views he needs to continue to represent the NO perspective and ideological stance ?

 

 

That is something that only Greeks themselves can give answer.

 

I think the vast majority of Greeks have been mislead and manipulated by the current Greek government and they will  now face dire consequences. And trust me for those that think " it can't get worse " ....it can get worse. I live in Africa and I can give you many examples of just how bad it can get 

 

dire how? its not like there's anything left to lose, the previous government has seen to that

[Bartimaeus]

The Greeks also probably thought it couldn't possibly get any worse as the Ottomans humiliated them by vassalizing the remnants of their once great Roman Empire. Turns out, things can always get worse...half a millennium of subservience to the Ottoman Empire saw to that.

Edited July 6, 2015 by Bartimaeus

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2015-07-06/greek-finance-minister-yanis-varoufakis-resigns/

 

 

Unbelievable, so one of the main proponents and architects of the referendum, the Greek finance  minister, has resigned 

 

He claims it will be easier to negotiate better terms on the loans if he isn't involved. This is UTTER BS....the issues with the loans are not to due to clashes of personality but structural around the actual terms of the payments 

 

I don't believe it will make any  difference who Greek sends to renegotiate the terms... there will always be certain conditions that Greece has to adhere to. I just find it concerning Varoufakis seems to be jumping ship when we will now see the true impact of the NO vote 

 

He did say that actions of Greece's debtors are terrorism, so I would guess that he would not get most warmest welcome in meetings with other eurozone's finance ministers. Meaning that if Greece hopes to have any change in any negotiations with their debtors he probably should not be part of those negotiations. 

 

 

Yeah I have heard that argument, hopefully that is exactly the reason and outcome

 

But the issue is he represented a certain symbolism around the Greek defiance. Many Greeks really liked him and believed what he said 

 

Now the rhetoric is over and the NO vote has won he resigns...what does that  say about the  veracity and credibility of the  NO argument ?

 

Surly for the all the millions of Greeks who stood by his views he needs to continue to represent the NO perspective and ideological stance ?

 

 

That is something that only Greeks themselves can give answer.

 

I think the vast majority of Greeks have been mislead and manipulated by the current Greek government and they will  now face dire consequences. And trust me for those that think " it can't get worse " ....it can get worse. I live in Africa and I can give you many examples of just how bad it can get 

 

dire how? its not like there's anything left to lose, the previous government has seen to that

 

 

At the moment the Greeks need additional loans to keep the Greeks  bank sustainable and  viable and for government to pay its pubic sector debt 

 

So without those loans these institutions will collapse, its inevitable 

 

So right now the Greek banks are allowing 60 Euro/day withdrawal...but what if there was NO money in the Greek banking system and they can't pay the salaries of the bloated public sector?  You do realize how bad that would be, it would be similar to certain African countries where the public sector is basically dysfunctional and is unable to meet its service delivery agreements  to the public 

[Ineth]

Not really surprising, both hate the EU and Israel quite a bit.

 

What's Israel got to do with it?

 

I agree though that its unsurprising to see /pol/ and /leftypol/ on the same page here, after what melkathi explained earlier about the Yes and No campaigns.

 

If the powers that be are smart, they won't give an inch of ground in the coming days and force Greece out of the euro by denying access to credit, cutting their losses.

 

That would require Merkel & co to pretty much reverse the "protect the Euro and EU unity at all cost" course they've tied themselves to (for better or worse), which will be politically difficult/disadvantageous for them.

 

Also, it could temporarily cause a humanitarian crisis in Greece before things would get better, the media coverage of which won't exactly be good publicity for those politicians.

 

So I doubt that the political side of the Troika will be steadfast enough to follow through with that "cold rational" course. The unelected technocrat banker side, OTOH...

[teknoman2]

 

 

 

At the moment the Greeks need additional loans to keep the Greeks  bank sustainable and  viable and for government to pay its pubic sector debt 

 

So without those loans these institutions will collapse, its inevitable 

 

So right now the Greek banks are allowing 60 Euro/day withdrawal...but what if there was NO money in the Greek banking system and they can't pay the salaries of the bloated public sector?  You do realize how bad that would be, it would be similar to certain African countries where the public sector is basically dysfunctional and is unable to meet its service delivery agreements  to the public 

 

this problem was created by the greek media actually. they launched a campaign of panic since the start of June and made people go and withdraw all their money from the banks, leaving them empty. you see most tv stations have debts (over 50M each) towards the state and while the previous governments (the past 30 years) simply left that debt uncolected in exchange for positive publicity and propaganda, this government is trying to colect the money owed and the media are at war with it

they outright break the law "on air" in order to sway people against the government. the day before any election, is forbiden to discuss the elections in live tv, yet this saturday a tv station had several members from the "YES" faction discussing and trying to goad people to vote yes. the funny part is that someone sent the police over and they rushed these guests out the back door to avoid getting "caught in the act". of course these news cant be found on mainstream tv, radio or newspapers

this is also the reason that the current government has so much support from the people.

Edited July 6, 2015 by teknoman2

[Meshugger]

hay guise, this is the narrative of  the resigning finance minister:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNItYoJhgmk#t=10m8s

Edited July 6, 2015 by Meshugger

[213374U]

Heh, I'll admit, I didn't expect Varoufakis to follow the political equivalent of "live fast, die young and leave a beautiful corpse" so closely. I guess he'll just go back to advising Valve as how to best nickel-and-dime their customers, so watch out.

 

 

So I doubt that the political side of the Troika will be steadfast enough to follow through with that "cold rational" course. The unelected technocrat banker side, OTOH...

 

Well, I suppose one's perspective on the likelihood of that occurrence hinges on to the extent to which one believes the EU decision making process to be subservient to financial interests. We'll have to wait and see.

 

Also, pretty funny to see Bruce defend "democracy" right up to the point where it is put into practice (cf. Crimea, Greece). Then it's all propaganda, manipulation, etc. Or, should I say, it would be funny if people recognized him for the poe that he is.

[Elerond]

http://www.welt.de/debatte/kommentare/article143325883/Tsipras-nutzt-die-aermeren-Europaeer-schamlos-aus.html

 

Article is in German, but it gives bit different perspective to the crisis.

[Monte Carlo]

I still stand by my Venezuela / dictatorship theory. Marxist's gonna Marxist.

[Monte Carlo]

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/07/does-anybody-still-believe-that-the-eu-is-a-benign-institution/

 

A view from the sensible Left by Nick Cohen. Apart from the bollocks that the single currency is Right Wing (Nick, bless him, seems to have a limited understanding of liberal economics in the classic sense), this is an excellent analysis from the other side of [my] ideological fence.

 

I'm increasingly of the view that the EU must have a stake driven through it's heart, before it tears the continent asunder. Ironically, the Germans are finding themselves, once again, over-dominant. Euromarks instead of Panzers, austerity instead of Anschluss.

[HoonDing]

Socialism will be the heat death of the Universe.

[BruceVC]

Heh, I'll admit, I didn't expect Varoufakis to follow the political equivalent of "live fast, die young and leave a beautiful corpse" so closely. I guess he'll just go back to advising Valve as how to best nickel-and-dime their customers, so watch out.

 

 

So I doubt that the political side of the Troika will be steadfast enough to follow through with that "cold rational" course. The unelected technocrat banker side, OTOH...

 

Well, I suppose one's perspective on the likelihood of that occurrence hinges on to the extent to which one believes the EU decision making process to be subservient to financial interests. We'll have to wait and see.

 

Also, pretty funny to see Bruce defend "democracy" right up to the point where it is put into practice (cf. Crimea, Greece). Then it's all propaganda, manipulation, etc. Or, should I say, it would be funny if people recognized him for the poe that he is.

 

No 2133, you are mistaking my criticism of Crimea and this Greek crisis with me someone contradicting the values of a Democracy

 

Crimea was/is a legitimate part of Ukraine so even though the citizens of Crimea wanted to join Russia thats just not the way the world works. There are legal and political realities where citizens of a region just can't have there own state or just breakaway and join another. Its not just the fact the Crimean referendum was a farce, its the fact the  Ukraine government (you know the people who actually govern Ukraine ) have no desire to give Crimea to Russia. How do you feel about the Basque separatists getting there own nation in Northern Spain, I assume you are supportive of there objectives ? 

 

And Greece..no idea why you think I am criticizing there NO decision based on the principles of Democracy. I know this was a Democratic vote, that's obvious. But it was an egregious mistake because I fail to see how this  decision is going to get more funding from the European Troika or somehow get the current Greek government to implement the necessary austerity measures needed that will start there economy moving forward 

Edited July 6, 2015 by BruceVC

[teknoman2]

Socialism will be the heat death of the Universe.

all political/economical systems are inherently flawed. each serves a purpose at a time and place, but after a period of time it always reaches a dead end and another system must be used to reset the field

[Raithe]

 

Rather than well argued reason and logic.. I shall merely throw in the internet snark

 

[Meshugger]

Mr. In the video i linked before, Varoufakis explained three different ways on how Greece could repay the debt in a sustainable way. 

 

Just saying.

[Monte Carlo]

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/07/where-is-the-affection-for-greece/

 

The always readable Ed West on Greece. To whit -

 

 

 

What’s interesting about the 5 July referendum is that it emphasises a key reality of 21st century politics, that the divide is not so much Left v Right but one of globalists v localists. On the one hand the global financial authorities, the EU, the banks and big business and the pro free-trade economists; on the other a strange combination of radical leftists opposed to austerity and ‘neoliberalism’ (whatever that means), as well as nationalists (both decent and deranged) and Burkean conservatives. The difference these days is that the former also go in for utopian ideals, whether it’s the euro or immigration, because they ignore the social implications of group feeling and think only in terms of economics not history; capitalism as the new Communism.

 

Good point. I'm conflicted myself and find myself torn. On the one hand, Greece reneging on its debts is wrong. It rewards sloth and corruption. On the other, the EUs treatment of Greece is quasi-imperial, larded with self-interest. I'm a Hobbesian realist who also agrees with JSM. Hmmm.

 

What do you think?

[melkathi]

It seems quite clear that Varoufakis did not resign but was resigned. The scoop for a while had been that Tsipras wanted to get rid of him but had too little control over his party/government to just do it.

The timing for the resignation is perfect.

While the NO won, participation wasn't high. By having V for Varoufakis resign, Tsipras created a day after where everyone won. The NO voters won because NO got over sixty percent. The YES voters won since one of their central goals, getting rid of Varoufakis, was met. And Tsipras won because he re-established his position in the party - for now. And Varoufakis won since he managed to go while he still could present the whole thing as him being awesome. Now he can get his tenure at Harvard and travel the world delivering speeches about how he'd have saved Greece if only the evil lenders had let him.

[Gfted1]

What do you think?

Reading this thread made me realize that Greece is sitting on a mother lode of resources, so maybe they need some Freedom?

 

Or if Raithe's article from the other thread is correct:

 

Is it an economic powerhouse?

 

Greece’s economy is about $240 billion, which puts it somewhere between Alabama and Louisiana, in terms of total might.

Maybe we can just trade Alabama for Greece, even swap?

[melkathi]

Would it mean we get Sweet Home Alabama as a national anthem?

 

We could initiate preliminary talks.

[213374U]

Good point. I'm conflicted myself and find myself torn. On the one hand, Greece reneging on its debts is wrong. It rewards sloth and corruption. On the other, the EUs treatment of Greece is quasi-imperial, larded with self-interest. I'm a Hobbesian realist who also agrees with JSM. Hmmm.

 

What do you think?

 

I've found that it's harder to take sides if you stop treating countries as individuals and applying the same logic. "Greece" cannot renege on or pay its debts because it's an abstract entity, not a person, and it cannot act or make decisions. And once you begin digging into what is owed, to whom, why, and under what circumstances were those debts contracted, the issue becomes very muddled. Hell, even considering "Greeks" as a whole is silly, because you are lumping together an unskilled burger flipper that puts in 60 hours a week in two jobs for a pittance, an old lady that has to make do with a 400€ pension, and Papandreou.

 

Should the debt be repaid in full? Does it matter? It's all make-believe anyway... that's the real issue IMO.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Not sure if it's been posted yet, but from the horse's mouth: http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/07/06/minister-no-more/#more-8433

 

I shall wear the creditors’ loathing with pride.

Also, pretty funny to see Bruce defend "democracy" right up to the point where it is put into practice (cf. Crimea, Greece). Then it's all propaganda, manipulation, etc. Or, should I say, it would be funny if people recognized him for the poe that he is.

Funny, but not surprising. Say what you will about Bruce, but he's consistent about his disdain for self-rule and freedom.

[Monte Carlo]

 

Good point. I'm conflicted myself and find myself torn. On the one hand, Greece reneging on its debts is wrong. It rewards sloth and corruption. On the other, the EUs treatment of Greece is quasi-imperial, larded with self-interest. I'm a Hobbesian realist who also agrees with JSM. Hmmm.

 

What do you think?

 

I've found that it's harder to take sides if you stop treating countries as individuals and applying the same logic. "Greece" cannot renege on or pay its debts because it's an abstract entity, not a person, and it cannot act or make decisions. And once you begin digging into what is owed, to whom, why, and under what circumstances were those debts contracted, the issue becomes very muddled. Hell, even considering "Greeks" as a whole is silly, because you are lumping together an unskilled burger flipper that puts in 60 hours a week in two jobs for a pittance, an old lady that has to make do with a 400€ pension, and Papandreou.

 

Should the debt be repaid in full? Does it matter? It's all make-believe anyway... that's the real issue IMO.

 

 

But countries are entities. Your argument is a de facto off-the-hook piece of theory crafting.

 

Bottom line - Greece, the country, made up of voters and politicians, happily accepted truckloads of EU cash from Northern Europe. They squandered it. They don't want to pay it back. As there is no shared European demos, not unnaturally the creditors are pissed off.

 

How that debt is structured and how fairly it's applied is another issue altogether. But the crux of the matter is that nation-states are responsible for collective economic decisions made by their government.

[HoonDing]

I vote to no longer pay off my mortgage. But I will also keep my house.

[cirdanx]

Should the debt be repaid in full? Does it matter?

 

Well that question is also kinda pointless, i mean Greece can´t pay it´s full debt. It´s not possible, especially with austerity that cripple them even further. But anyway, the debt is just to high. A debt cut is unavoidable one day. Even recent IMF documents show that they are aware of this.

 

If it matters, well, Germany and the bigger banks can stomach a Greece default. The problem is that under the ECB "help program", the other countries also stand in for the debt and that includes Italy, Spain, Portugal...countries who are also in high debt and have serious problems. They fear a domino effect. Not to mention that when one country leaves the EU/EURO, others might follow. So called euro-sceptic parties are gaining favour on a constant level for years now and i don´t see that trend going away. (nor do i want to)

[Gfted1]

I vote to no longer pay off my mortgage. But I will also keep my house.

Good luck. I tried the "redistributed wealth" angle but only 213374U was generous enough to make an offer. Obviously I was intended to be born into a wealthy family. Must have been switched at the hospital.