So there is no good ending?

[Ouroboros226]

Endgame spoilers.

So there is no good ending? Sending the souls anywhere is pretty much a short-term victory. The main issue was not resolved - the world still believe in the false gods. Is there no ending to destroy or disrupt the false gods and inform the world that they have lived in ignorance? As it stands - none of the endings are good because they all lead to the world still living in oblivious ignorance to the truth.

 

[Crucis]

It's a matter of perspective as to whether the ending you'd prefer is a "good" ending.  For that matter, I'm not entirely certain that the information that Iovana (?) gave you is absolute fact.  It may only be her opinion.

 

I think that at least the ending I had, Galawain's ending, was a "good" ending.  From most of the post-ending blurbs, it sounded like the Dyrwood was much better off after the ending.  Waidwen's Legacy was ended.  The Hollowborn births stopped.  All sorts of good things happened in the region.  IMO, that was a much more immediate concern than whether or not the gods may or may not be real.

 

Additionally, one could argue that a storyline based on seeking out hard proof that the gods are false could be the basis for a PoE sequel.  (Probably not an expansion, though, unless it was a larger expansion like BG2-TOB.)

[InsaneCommander]

But if you turn all those souls into essence you are destroying the individuals, right? I'm not sure that is a good ending.

 

Unless Rymrgand is right and all souls are fated to be destroyed anyway.

[gkathellar]

 

So there is no good ending? Sending the souls anywhere is pretty much a short-term victory. The main issue was not resolved - the world still believe in the false gods. Is there no ending to destroy or disrupt the false gods and inform the world that they have lived in ignorance? As it stands - none of the endings are good because they all lead to the world still living in oblivious ignorance to the truth.

 

 

Pick your battles. The world is bigger than the Watcher, and bigger than Thaos - this is not the only story, and the Watcher is not its only champion. More than anything, the gods are ideals to live up to - bad ideals, good ideals, but ideals. Sometimes it helps that those ideals can provide direct counsel, but as Engwithan history demonstrates, people constructed and believed in those ideals long before they could talk back. Not in a hundred lifetimes could one person convince them to give those ideals up - but Thaos was never afraid of one or two atheists. He was afraid of scientific and social progress allowing people to learn the truth for themselves, and so he perpetrated horrors to prevent it. With him out of the way, Animancy will progress, and the heroes of the coming age will hopefully be the scientists and scholars who can teach a whole world the way one guy with a sword never can.

 

The Watcher learned something, and because of that knowledge, can make informed decisions. By dispatching Thaos and saving the Dyrwood, the Watcher gave the world the chance to do the same. That's probably the best one person - no matter how powerful - can ask for.

 

But if you turn all those souls into essence you are destroying the individuals, right? I'm not sure that is a good ending.

 

Unless Rymrgand is right and all souls are fated to be destroyed anyway.

 

As it is, souls already break apart and reform all the time as part of Berath's Wheel. Only Woedica and Rymrgand's choices are harmful in the long term. All of the others have their pros and cons.

Edited April 23, 2015 by gkathellar

[Suen]

Endgame spoilers.

 

 

 

So there is no good ending? Sending the souls anywhere is pretty much a short-term victory. The main issue was not resolved - the world still believe in the false gods. Is there no ending to destroy or disrupt the false gods and inform the world that they have lived in ignorance? As it stands - none of the endings are good because they all lead to the world still living in oblivious ignorance to the truth.

 

It was a good ending for my paladin.

Artificial or not, the gods are real enough to do their job. Given the chance my character would put back together Eothas to restore the pantheon.

 

Edited April 23, 2015 by Suen

[Ouroboros226]

 

 

So there is no good ending? Sending the souls anywhere is pretty much a short-term victory. The main issue was not resolved - the world still believe in the false gods. Is there no ending to destroy or disrupt the false gods and inform the world that they have lived in ignorance? As it stands - none of the endings are good because they all lead to the world still living in oblivious ignorance to the truth.

 

 

Pick your battles. The world is bigger than the Watcher, and bigger than Thaos - this is not the only story, and the Watcher is not its only champion. More than anything, the gods are ideals to live up to - bad ideals, good ideals, but ideals. Sometimes it helps that those ideals can provide direct counsel, but as Engwithan history demonstrates, people constructed and believed in those ideals long before they could talk back. Not in a hundred lifetimes could one person convince them to give those ideals up - but Thaos was never afraid of one or two atheists. He was afraid of scientific and social progress allowing people to learn the truth for themselves, and so he perpetrated horrors to prevent it. With him out of the way, Animancy will progress, and the heroes of the coming age will hopefully be the scientists and scholars who can teach a whole world the way one guy with a sword never can.

 

The Watcher learned something, and because of that knowledge, can make informed decisions. By dispatching Thaos and saving the Dyrwood, the Watcher gave the world the chance to do the same. That's probably the best one person - no matter how powerful - can ask for.

 

But if you turn all those souls into essence you are destroying the individuals, right? I'm not sure that is a good ending.

 

Unless Rymrgand is right and all souls are fated to be destroyed anyway.

 

As it is, souls already break apart and reform all the time as part of Berath's Wheel. Only Woedica and Rymrgand's choices are harmful in the long term. All of the others have their pros and cons.

 

You make some good points here. Can't argue there

[sparklecat]

It's only a "bad" ending if you think that being created makes a god false.  My character didn't, especially.

[Voss]

I think that at least the ending I had, Galawain's ending, was a "good" ending.  From most of the post-ending blurbs, it sounded like the Dyrwood was much better off after the ending.  Waidwen's Legacy was ended.  The Hollowborn births stopped. 

That stops regardless of what choice you make.

[Emptiness]

That stops regardless of what choice you make.

 

Until the Leaden Key, which you did not dismantle, uses the same machines Thaos was using, which you did not destroy, to resume his work.  There's no reason to assume that Thaos did not make plans to account for the possibility of his demise.  He certainly had plenty of time.

 

Depending on your choices in the game, this actually happens to a small extent in the final story exposition.  It could easily resume full-scale at any time.

 

So really you aren't even certain to have permanently resolved Waidwen's Legacy by the time the game ends.

[Guest]

There were a lot of things left unresolved by the end of the game. I suspect that's due, in large part, to planned sequels.

[InsaneCommander]

 

But if you turn all those souls into essence you are destroying the individuals, right? I'm not sure that is a good ending.

 

Unless Rymrgand is right and all souls are fated to be destroyed anyway.

 

As it is, souls already break apart and reform all the time as part of Berath's Wheel. Only Woedica and Rymrgand's choices are harmful in the long term. All of the others have their pros and cons.

 

I think it depends on the Watcher's opinions. If he/she doesn't care the Gods are not real, supporting Woedica is not necessarily bad. If Rymrgand is right and all souls are fated to disintegrate, then satisfying him is not harmful in the long term, because it won't change anything. It may be harmful on the short term though.

 

If there is reincarnation, death is not really a problem, people will die anyway and forget everything. Except for those whose souls are destroyed, but many don't care about it, like the pale elves in Noonfrost, some people that sacrifice willingly to the Ethik Nol (for the first time I notice the "ethics" in their name lol) and the people that "became" Woedica. Anyway, many souls go through the wheel without breaking apart, but if you turn the holloborn into essence, they all will cease to exist as individuals.

[anameforobsidian]

I'm somewhat surprised you couldn't remake Eothas with the missing souls.

[gkathellar]

 

 

But if you turn all those souls into essence you are destroying the individuals, right? I'm not sure that is a good ending.

 

Unless Rymrgand is right and all souls are fated to be destroyed anyway.

 

As it is, souls already break apart and reform all the time as part of Berath's Wheel. Only Woedica and Rymrgand's choices are harmful in the long term. All of the others have their pros and cons.

 

I think it depends on the Watcher's opinions. If he/she doesn't care the Gods are not real, supporting Woedica is not necessarily bad. If Rymrgand is right and all souls are fated to disintegrate, then satisfying him is not harmful in the long term, because it won't change anything. It may be harmful on the short term though.

 

If there is reincarnation, death is not really a problem, people will die anyway and forget everything. Except for those whose souls are destroyed, but many don't care about it, like the pale elves in Noonfrost, some people that sacrifice willingly to the Ethik Nol (for the first time I notice the "ethics" in their name lol) and the people that "became" Woedica. Anyway, many souls go through the wheel without breaking apart, but if you turn the holloborn into essence, they all will cease to exist as individuals.

 

 

Sorry, let me rephrase - only Rymrgand and Woedica offer options which are possibly of to the detriment of the Cycle, in the sense of removing resources from it. One way or the other, the souls in all of the other options are going to work their way back to Berath's Wheel eventually.

[Elerond]

 

 

 

But if you turn all those souls into essence you are destroying the individuals, right? I'm not sure that is a good ending.

 

Unless Rymrgand is right and all souls are fated to be destroyed anyway.

 

As it is, souls already break apart and reform all the time as part of Berath's Wheel. Only Woedica and Rymrgand's choices are harmful in the long term. All of the others have their pros and cons.

 

I think it depends on the Watcher's opinions. If he/she doesn't care the Gods are not real, supporting Woedica is not necessarily bad. If Rymrgand is right and all souls are fated to disintegrate, then satisfying him is not harmful in the long term, because it won't change anything. It may be harmful on the short term though.

 

If there is reincarnation, death is not really a problem, people will die anyway and forget everything. Except for those whose souls are destroyed, but many don't care about it, like the pale elves in Noonfrost, some people that sacrifice willingly to the Ethik Nol (for the first time I notice the "ethics" in their name lol) and the people that "became" Woedica. Anyway, many souls go through the wheel without breaking apart, but if you turn the holloborn into essence, they all will cease to exist as individuals.

 

 

Sorry, let me rephrase - only Rymrgand and Woedica offer options which are possibly of to the detriment of the Cycle, in the sense of removing resources from it. One way or the other, the souls in all of the other options are going to work their way back to Berath's Wheel eventually.

 

 

Although destroying souls is part of cycle and it don't seem to have harmed or caused population of world to decrease, so one could argue that destroying souls free their energy which will let new souls to born. And because we don't know what those souls moving and changing machines do it could be better for the cycle destroy them and let their energy create new souls that aren't tainted by those machines to cycle.

[InsaneCommander]

Good points, gkathellar and Elerond. Since we don't know the origin and destiny of souls and Rymrgand could be lying, the "best" thing would be to trust the wheel (which is not Berath's, btw...) and send the souls back there.

 

The interesting thing is that, apparently, Woedica was created by volunteers (although that vision in the end included children, I'm not sure they would qualify as such). I imagine the same happened with the other gods, but Eothas probably wouldn't like to be recreated with the hollowborn's souls.

 

I wonder if the machines that created the other gods are in other continents. If we had to visit them in the sequel, it'd be a good excuse to send the party to other interesting places of Eora, like the Living Lands and TWTW.

 

[CybAnt1]

It's only a "bad" ending if you think that being created makes a god false.  My character didn't, especially.

 

I think it's interesting that Iovara keeps emphasizing the aspect of choice. She didn't want to eradicate belief in the gods. She wanted people to have the choice to continue believing or not, with correct knowledge. That would include choosing to continue worship. The only thing she felt was wrong was the lack of choice. 

[Karkarov]

Well that's the gag.  The gods ARE real.  They just aren't actual gods, they are entities created through a massive ritual where thousands of souls were fused together with singular intent.  This also explains why the Engwithans disappeared overnight.... because their whole society was sacrificed to create the "Gods".  Personally I sent the souls back to the wheel since the only thing we know for sure is the wheel is the natural order and it existed before the gods did.  As a result it seemed like the most logical thing to do, though I could see going with Wael's plan since it takes the most out of the gods hands and puts it to chance.

[Bryy]

I'm somewhat surprised you couldn't remake Eothas with the missing souls.

.... mind blown.

[Dadalama]

I was thinking

 

the gods really screwed themselves. No amount of animancy or progress is going to make people quit believing in a god that can hide in the gaps. But making the gods real? An actual obtainable thing? That's just a bomb waiting to explode. Thaos wouldn't have had to exist if the Engwithans never made the pantheon. Making the gods real, gave people a reason to disbelieve the gods.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Dadalama

[kaiki]

Endgame spoilers.

 

 

 

So there is no good ending? Sending the souls anywhere is pretty much a short-term victory. The main issue was not resolved - the world still believe in the false gods. Is there no ending to destroy or disrupt the false gods and inform the world that they have lived in ignorance? As it stands - none of the endings are good because they all lead to the world still living in oblivious ignorance to the truth.

 

 

I suppose it's all in your point of view. That was the objective that my pc was working towards. So I'd judge that I did get a good ending.

[RevBlue]

Wait, so are you people saying the end vision in the story, where Theos is in the hall with all the other people, is them creating Woedica? Is it explained or implicated anywhere? Becuase I was confused about what it meant.

 

Also how do you know the Engwitheans used their own souls to create the gods? Its stated they created them but its only spoken of with metaphors and such....

[Primislas]

Wait, so are you people saying the end vision in the story, where Theos is in the hall with all the other people, is them creating Woedica? Is it explained or implicated anywhere? Becuase I was confused about what it meant.

 

Also how do you know the Engwitheans used their own souls to create the gods? Its stated they created them but its only spoken of with metaphors and such....

 

Given the way Woedica intends to strengthen herself and given the final memory of Thaos used to activate the machine, it only seems reasonable to conclude. What else?

 

 

 

The vision itself. (Apparently I can't wrap multiple paragraphs into a single spoiler. >.>)

 

With a deep breath, you plunge into Thaos' soul, and where in Brackenbury it had been a maze of narrow corridors and dead ends, now it is expansive and borderless, its walls crumbling into heaps like the ruins of Engwith as you pass through them. You travel for what seems like ages, rushing to a known destination, a memory you glimpsed once before. At last you see it, no more than a pinprick of light at the end of a long tunnel, expanding slowly at first, then quickly as you near.

 

You come out in the room you are standing in now, but it is new and pristine and filled with people - thousands of them, all turned towards the great adra pillar and the machine that encases it. Thaos stands at the machine, and you are one with him now. You look out at the crowd, at faces of shriveled old men and cherub-cheeked little girls, at mothers bouncing infants to quiet them and fathers clasping their children's restless hands and watching you with somber acceptance. A woman with tears in her eyes gives you a small nod.

 

You turn back toward the machine, your breaths constricted beneath the weight of unwanted knowledge, preparing yourself to set out alone on a journey without end. You close your eyes and open them again to find the machine still in front of you, beckoning. You take your place in front of it and place your hands upon a large mechanical disc at the base of the great crystal column and speak a single word. Giant rings creak to life, building speed, setting arrays of carved draconic mouths aglow and sending tremors through the platform beneath you.

 

The entire room shakes now with the force of the accelerating machine, all sound drowned out by its deep, deafening thrum. Brilliant tendrils of light arc outward from the pillar in all directions, and you look over your shoulder to see them engulfing the crowd, burning them brightly like hot iron.  One by one, the tendrils disappear, leaving ashen effigies where people once stood, many of them disintegrating into gray heaps under the stress of the tremors.

 

You look above to the adra pillar, and a glowing spherical mass has begun to coalesce atop the column where the arcs converge. It grows and pulses, translucent and bulbous like some immense chrysalis, suspended in slow rotation as though it were being spun from the arcs of light.

 

When the last arc disappears, the spectral mass hangs a moment, no longer rotating, so bright you must shield your eyes with an outstretched hand, and it seems to you as though it is looking at you. You bow your head in acknowledgment, and look back up to see it melt into the pillar like warm candle wax. The pillar flares with a flash of light bright as the sun itself, then fades to darkness. The machine slows down to an abrupt halt, and when the last echo of its grinding cogs has passed, the chamber is still, and you are alone.

 

From all sides, reality begins to bleed in through the memory, and you find yourself in your own skin once more, looking down on Thaos' lifeless body.

 

"He was good at serving his god, I give him that. But he should've picked a better one."

Edited April 24, 2015 by Primislas

[rjshae]

"good" is all about survival; helping some people survive, and not at the expense of others, is a good, positive outcome.

 

As for whether believing in "false" gods is a bad thing... that's probably a question that will never be answered.

[Emptiness]

Wait, so are you people saying the end vision in the story, where Theos is in the hall with all the other people, is them creating Woedica? Is it explained or implicated anywhere? Becuase I was confused about what it meant.

 

The story certainly tries to lead you to draw that conclusion (see Primislas' quote above), but there are other ways to interpret what you saw in Thaos' soul... which is part of why I find the story unsatisfying.  The last section of Act IV seems to have been written with an assumption by the writer(s) that the reader will interpret everything exactly the way they expect, and so there's very little effort made to disambiguate the story's dénouement.  Considering the fact that you've got Thaos' soul at your mercy and no pressing need to be elsewhere, I would have liked to have seen the Watcher (have the option to) probe more deeply into his memories and come away with more concrete answers to many questions.

 

At least in my case, answers were what I wanted most from Thaos, but the story had me reach a point where I had those answers in my grasp and then discarded them - which made the journey seem somewhat pointless.  If I was going to just wander off without really fixing anything, well, I could have just done that at immediately after Cilant Lis.

[sparklecat]

I assumed the vision at the end was them creating all the gods.  Why just Woedica?