RPGCodex Review #1 - Hŵrpa Dwrp

[Gromnir]

 

What I found most annoying was how confusion worked as it would cause my buffs/heals to be applied to enemies when they were under the status effect (confusion should not = domination). In the end I never bothered with the confusion abilities as they were inferior to other forms of CC. Also how my party would auto attack dominated companions, which felt really weird and to me was immersion breaking.

I think confusion is actually OP the way it works now. First, it seems that instead of acting randomly (as one would expect from a confused person), confused targets become your allies, for all intents and purposes. And what makes it superior to charm/domination is that they don't snap out of it if you attack them, so you can finish them off with complete impunity. 

 

our experience is different.  as often as not, the confused will wander aimlessly or stand stationary doing nothing.  

 

aside: confusion and domination does make our use o' long duration aoe spells more rare as it can lead to quirky results.  our summoned adra beetle gets confused by... whatever.  our beetle then walks through our wall of fire.  our summoned beetle is no longer confused but is genuinely and open hostile towards us.  

 

the graze/hit/crit mechanic is unforgiving and it may lead to oddly anti-climactic encounters.  petrify need only be effective for a second or two to make a host o' other spells near guaranteed hits or crits.  am understanding why many do not like the approach, but our solution would be to address encounter design rather than the mechanics.  

 

"What's that? Nothing? Not a single example? None? Two pages dug into a hole, posed with the request to substantiate, even in part, a single one of your claims, yet nothing? Shocking, Gromnir. Simply shocking!"

 

not need to do so as you still haven't gotten over your logic/reason hurdle yet.  am not so generous that we would allow you to ignore your silliness in trying distinguishing ie from d&d insta kill and/or hard counter mechanics, and why on earth you think the difference is significant.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[WebShaman]

I too am in the "different effects for crit/hit/graze" team!

 

And I would also like to see a return of immunities.

[Zwiebelchen]

 

I haven't gotten into this discussion, but I absolutely love the idea of variant results for Graze/Hit/Crit effects from spells. Would definitely solve the whole "Grazes aren't hits but eh, close enough, I guess it sorta hit"-issue.

 

Tie it into a robust, thematic, Immunity/Resistance system, and we're halfway there for interesting combat. I still have no idea how we're going to solve the Accuracy vs. Deflection issues, though, with tanks being Full-Deflection-or-Bust and it all rapidly degenerating into swingfests, and vice versa for everyone else.

 

Just get rid of the different base deflection scores of classes and put deflection back on armors. It's stupid that half of your deflection comes from talents and class choice.

 

Literally, it's that easy. Remove the damn recovery penalty from armors and instead make it a deflection penalty. It makes sense, after all. You can decide between max deflection (light armors) or max DR (plate armor) or anything inbetween.

 

 

At least this way armor is actually a choice (I can decide between better evasion or a more reliable damage reduction) and light-armored guys don't instantly drop when attacked once.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[TheisEjsing]

So guys... Before the game was released there were alot of **** talking. The general consensus were however, that the common goal was to improve the game. It's sad to see now, that the discussion is reduced to this. Any worthwhile constructive argument about the future of PoE is quickly shot down.  
And it's sad to read Sensukis posts on the codex aswell. To watch him starting this thread, only to coward out, when Matt is confronting him. Then to go post a link on the codex about this thread, only to promote his wish to belong to their group of self important wankers and ridicule the how the peasents here doesn't agree with them. 
I actually believed he wanted to work for the betterment of PoE, but he showed his true colors now. 
So sad. 

[Rumpelstilskin]

 

 

What I found most annoying was how confusion worked as it would cause my buffs/heals to be applied to enemies when they were under the status effect (confusion should not = domination). In the end I never bothered with the confusion abilities as they were inferior to other forms of CC. Also how my party would auto attack dominated companions, which felt really weird and to me was immersion breaking.

I think confusion is actually OP the way it works now. First, it seems that instead of acting randomly (as one would expect from a confused person), confused targets become your allies, for all intents and purposes. And what makes it superior to charm/domination is that they don't snap out of it if you attack them, so you can finish them off with complete impunity. 

 

our experience is different.  as often as not, the confused will wander aimlessly or stand stationary doing nothing.  

 

aside: confusion and domination does make our use o' long duration aoe spells more rare as it can lead to quirky results.  our summoned adra beetle gets confused by... whatever.  our beetle then walks through our wall of fire.  our summoned beetle is no longer confused but is genuinely and open hostile towards us.  

 

the graze/hit/crit mechanic is unforgiving and it may lead to oddly anti-climactic encounters.  petrify need only be effective for a second or two to make a host o' other spells near guaranteed hits or crits.  am understanding why many do not like the approach, but our solution would be to address encounter design rather than the mechanics.  

 

"What's that? Nothing? Not a single example? None? Two pages dug into a hole, posed with the request to substantiate, even in part, a single one of your claims, yet nothing? Shocking, Gromnir. Simply shocking!"

 

not need to do so as you still haven't gotten over your logic/reason hurdle yet.  am not so generous that we would allow you to ignore your silliness in trying distinguishing ie from d&d insta kill and/or hard counter mechanics, and why on earth you think the difference is significant.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Hmm, you might be right about confused enemies acting randomly. Perhaps I got the idea of a full allegiance flip because former allies start attacking them immediately.

 

As for grazes being equivalent to full hits, I still disagree. Most (possibly all) hard stuns target either fort or will, but don't lower it, so successive stunning doesn't become easier. They do lower reflex and deflection, but lowering deflection for a short time is obviously not an insta-kill, and reflex spells are not particularly deadly.

[WebShaman]

Well, it looks like this topic has run its course.

 

Wish I had an ignore button.

 

Luck, you should start a new thread so that we can discuss mechanics more.

[Gromnir]

 

 

 

What I found most annoying was how confusion worked as it would cause my buffs/heals to be applied to enemies when they were under the status effect (confusion should not = domination). In the end I never bothered with the confusion abilities as they were inferior to other forms of CC. Also how my party would auto attack dominated companions, which felt really weird and to me was immersion breaking.

I think confusion is actually OP the way it works now. First, it seems that instead of acting randomly (as one would expect from a confused person), confused targets become your allies, for all intents and purposes. And what makes it superior to charm/domination is that they don't snap out of it if you attack them, so you can finish them off with complete impunity. 

 

our experience is different.  as often as not, the confused will wander aimlessly or stand stationary doing nothing.  

 

aside: confusion and domination does make our use o' long duration aoe spells more rare as it can lead to quirky results.  our summoned adra beetle gets confused by... whatever.  our beetle then walks through our wall of fire.  our summoned beetle is no longer confused but is genuinely and open hostile towards us.  

 

the graze/hit/crit mechanic is unforgiving and it may lead to oddly anti-climactic encounters.  petrify need only be effective for a second or two to make a host o' other spells near guaranteed hits or crits.  am understanding why many do not like the approach, but our solution would be to address encounter design rather than the mechanics.  

 

"What's that? Nothing? Not a single example? None? Two pages dug into a hole, posed with the request to substantiate, even in part, a single one of your claims, yet nothing? Shocking, Gromnir. Simply shocking!"

 

not need to do so as you still haven't gotten over your logic/reason hurdle yet.  am not so generous that we would allow you to ignore your silliness in trying distinguishing ie from d&d insta kill and/or hard counter mechanics, and why on earth you think the difference is significant.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Hmm, you might be right about confused enemies acting randomly. Perhaps I got the idea of a full allegiance flip because former allies start attacking them immediately.

 

As for grazes being equivalent to full hits, I still disagree. Most (possibly all) hard stuns target either fort or will, but don't lower it, so successive stunning doesn't become easier. They do lower reflex and deflection, but lowering deflection for a short time is obviously not an insta-kill, and reflex spells are not particularly deadly.

 

in kinda an opposite-but-the-same scenario, it were rather annoying when our auto-targeting party unloaded a fusillade into our sudden dominated wizard... after the third or fourth time aloth died from friendly fire, Gromnir decided it might behove us to make adjustments to our tactics.   

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Hiro Protagonist II]

So guys... Before the game was released there were alot of **** talking. The general consensus were however, that the common goal was to improve the game. It's sad to see now, that the discussion is reduced to this. Any worthwhile constructive argument about the future of PoE is quickly shot down.  

And it's sad to read Sensukis posts on the codex aswell. To watch him starting this thread, only to coward out, when Matt is confronting him. Then to go post a link on the codex about this thread, only to promote his wish to belong to their group of self important wankers and ridicule the how the peasents here doesn't agree with them. 

I actually believed he wanted to work for the betterment of PoE, but he showed his true colors now. 

So sad. 

 

Sounds like the one who's **** talking is you. I didn't know this was about Sensuki? How about discuss things like the review instead of **** talking other people.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

One thing I'd love to see is for more than just the duration of spell effects to vary with attack resolution. Particularly, CC spells need to apply different status effects based on the attack resolution - so on a hit you might charm, and on a crit you might dominate, but a graze only dazes. (just as an example)

 

This would allow for a bit more counter-play on both the part of the player and the AI against status effects. As it is, you can confuse or paralyze even extremely powerful enemies for a decent amount of time since you can generally get a graze even when their defenses are very high.

 

Matt, this has been brought up so many times that Obsidian are not listening. Well they might listen but they will go with what they feel is right. Doesn't matter what you or I think.

 

For example. Lets go back to 26th September 2014. I posted about grazes and charm with a min-maxed Cipher with 3 INT back in the Beta. I've always considered grazes as hits

[Ouroboros226]

Remember when people just had fun playing games? And didn't analyze them to death looking for faults? Good times x)

[sffrrrom]

I don't know about hard counters and D&D v. PoE's system and whatever personal axes some of you seem to have to grind with one another, but I can say that I find BGII's combat system (which is D&D based) three or four times more enjoyable than PoE's, hard counters or no. I don't know if that is arguing for more D&D on a serious level; I don't design games and I don't pretend to be an expert on design philosophy (and I appreciate that many suggestions here are intended to be constructive). But if the binary choice were between more "D&D style" gameplay and more "PoE" style gameplay, I would certainly not be picking PoE (I don't pretend that is the actual only binary choice or that PoE couldn't potentially be improved to change my opinion, but that is my outlook at the moment). 

[Matt516]

 

 

So guys... Before the game was released there were alot of **** talking. The general consensus were however, that the common goal was to improve the game. It's sad to see now, that the discussion is reduced to this. Any worthwhile constructive argument about the future of PoE is quickly shot down.

And it's sad to read Sensukis posts on the codex aswell. To watch him starting this thread, only to coward out, when Matt is confronting him. Then to go post a link on the codex about this thread, only to promote his wish to belong to their group of self important wankers and ridicule the how the peasents here doesn't agree with them.

I actually believed he wanted to work for the betterment of PoE, but he showed his true colors now.

So sad.

Sounds like the one who's **** talking is you. I didn't know this was about Sensuki? How about discuss things like the review instead of **** talking other people.

Yeah, I have nothing but respect for Sensuki despite our differences in opinion on this matter. I couldn't name a single person on this forum who has (to my knowledge) put in a fraction of the time Sensuki has on making the game better. Literally hundreds and hundreds of bug reports during the Beta.

 

I thought the review was pretty terrible when I made that original post and I still do. But Sensuki has every right to think otherwise, and that doesn't make him a "coward". He doesn't like PoE. That's fine. I wish he did, mostly for his sake since he's put so much time into the game - but he doesn't and that's his right.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Matt516

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Going back to that old thread I linked was pretty interesting. So many issues that were brought up is still in the game. It was pretty funny min-maxing characters, especially characters that I dumped stats on to see if they played differently to characters who may have had maxed out stats like INT.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Hiro Protagonist II

[TheisEjsing]

RPGCodex just released their first review (there will be another one)

 

http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=9867

 

This is my favourite review so far. I agree with most, if not all points/conclusions although often for (sometimes very) different reasons than the reviewer stated.

 

 

 

 

Sorry, Sensuki... I've gotta disagree with you 100% here. This review is the Codex at its worst. And I say that not in a "the Codex is terrible" sense, but in a "this is the kind of thing that gives the Codex a bad name" sense.

 

 

 

 

 

 

So he makes a thread, so he can watch people be insulted by an insulting hatchet job. Such respect that man deserves. He didn't get the "I saved PoE from itself" reclaim, but he is making damn sure, to get the "I benevolently tried everything, but it was impossible to help OE" reclaim on the codex now. 

[RushAndAPush]

This is all the RPG codex's fault. 

[Stun]

 

 

actually,yeah, there is more than a few folks arguing for more d&d

Find me one that has been doing that on a serious level.

 

oh, so the ones using ie games as examples is not serious?

 

*chuckle*

 

That would be...arguing for more IE Game, not necessarily more D&D.

 

And yes, Gromnir, there's a huge difference, unless of course you come from a pen and paper group who's DM allowed prebuffing for every fight. Or...unless you're willing to scrap your OWN silly Demilich example on this thread (going Ethereal and casting Power Word: Kill will have no effect on a Demi lich in BG2. On the other hand, summoning fire elementals will. as will the ring of the Ram, Protection from Undead Scrolls, Thief traps, Firebreath, Melf's Minute Meteors, Mace of Disruption +2 etc.)

Edited April 24, 2015 by Stun

[Luckmann]

 

 

 

What I found most annoying was how confusion worked as it would cause my buffs/heals to be applied to enemies when they were under the status effect (confusion should not = domination). In the end I never bothered with the confusion abilities as they were inferior to other forms of CC. Also how my party would auto attack dominated companions, which felt really weird and to me was immersion breaking.

I think confusion is actually OP the way it works now. First, it seems that instead of acting randomly (as one would expect from a confused person), confused targets become your allies, for all intents and purposes. And what makes it superior to charm/domination is that they don't snap out of it if you attack them, so you can finish them off with complete impunity.

 

our experience is different.  as often as not, the confused will wander aimlessly or stand stationary doing nothing.  

 

aside: confusion and domination does make our use o' long duration aoe spells more rare as it can lead to quirky results.  our summoned adra beetle gets confused by... whatever.  our beetle then walks through our wall of fire.  our summoned beetle is no longer confused but is genuinely and open hostile towards us.  

 

the graze/hit/crit mechanic is unforgiving and it may lead to oddly anti-climactic encounters.  petrify need only be effective for a second or two to make a host o' other spells near guaranteed hits or crits.  am understanding why many do not like the approach, but our solution would be to address encounter design rather than the mechanics.  

 

"What's that? Nothing? Not a single example? None? Two pages dug into a hole, posed with the request to substantiate, even in part, a single one of your claims, yet nothing? Shocking, Gromnir. Simply shocking!"

 

not need to do so as you still haven't gotten over your logic/reason hurdle yet.  am not so generous that we would allow you to ignore your silliness in trying distinguishing ie from d&d insta kill and/or hard counter mechanics, and why on earth you think the difference is significant.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Hmm, you might be right about confused enemies acting randomly. Perhaps I got the idea of a full allegiance flip because former allies start attacking them immediately.

 

As for grazes being equivalent to full hits, I still disagree. Most (possibly all) hard stuns target either fort or will, but don't lower it, so successive stunning doesn't become easier. They do lower reflex and deflection, but lowering deflection for a short time is obviously not an insta-kill, and reflex spells are not particularly deadly.

 

 

I can only assume that you are not using the IEMod, meaning that confused enemies show up as green, I suspect?

 

The IEMod has a setting that makes Neutral NPC:s show up as cyan (just like in the IE-games), and if you turn it on, you'll see that the Confused enemies show up as cyan (neutral), not green (allied).

 

The state is still pretty damn broken, but it's an important distinction (that the game has no intention of informing you of by itself).

 

This is all the RPG codex's fault.

That's what your mom said.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Luckmann

[RushAndAPush]

 

 

This is all the RPG codex's fault.

That's what your mom said.

 

 

top middle-school lel 

Edited April 24, 2015 by RushAndAPush

[gunman78]

This is all the RPG codex's fault. 

 

RPG codex is the nemesis of fanboys. The god of butthurt has been summoned !

[Stun]

you are being silly.  the ie games used d&d mechanics.

So what. PoE uses D&D mechanics. Stop changing the subject.

 

No, Luckmann is right. People asking for More IE Game feel are asking for just that: More IE game feel. D&D was only brought up because YOU brought it up.

[Ohioastro]

 

RPGCodex just released their first review (there will be another one)

 

http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=9867

 

This is my favourite review so far. I agree with most, if not all points/conclusions although often for (sometimes very) different reasons than the reviewer stated.

 

 

 

 

Sorry, Sensuki... I've gotta disagree with you 100% here. This review is the Codex at its worst. And I say that not in a "the Codex is terrible" sense, but in a "this is the kind of thing that gives the Codex a bad name" sense.

 

 

 

 

 

 

So he makes a thread, so he can watch people be insulted by an insulting hatchet job. Such respect that man deserves. He didn't get the "I saved PoE from itself" reclaim, but he is making damn sure, to get the "I benevolently tried everything, but it was impossible to help OE" reclaim on the codex now. 

 

 

His behavior since launch has not given a favorable impression.

 

And, yes, I was watching the  boards during beta, and he really went out of his way to do true beta testing.  Unfortunately, like a lot of other people who get wrapped up in something, he then apparently thought that he had earned the right to design the game itself.  It doesn't work that way, and after putting heart and soul into something for so long it stings. 

 

Nonetheless, other people have  not only a right but a duty to tell someone that what they're doing is counterproductive, especially if it's causing you to lose well-earned respect for what they do.

[Mlatimudan]

@TheisEjsing  

He may or may not deserve respect, and you might even consider him a bit dickish, but to imply that he's an **** who put in god knows how many hours into beta testing(seriously sensuki do you have a job? ) just to be able to **** on the game is stupid.

 

I don't like a lot of what he posts but the man makes some fine ass points most of the time, and even when I don't agree I usually see how someone would think he was right.

 

If you think his points are stupid ore exaggerated say that don't attack the guy because he's disappointed in a game he put hella hours in, that's like kicking a puppy.

[Luckmann]

His behavior since launch has not given a favorable impression.

 

And, yes, I was watching the  boards during beta, and he really went out of his way to do true beta testing.  Unfortunately, like a lot of other people who get wrapped up in something, he then apparently thought that he had earned the right to design the game itself.  It doesn't work that way, and after putting heart and soul into something for so long it stings. 

 

Nonetheless, other people have  not only a right but a duty to tell someone that what they're doing is counterproductive, especially if it's causing you to lose well-earned respect for what they do.

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.

 

Since it's apparently my duty, I must inform you that the most counterproductive thing there is is to discuss people and personas, rather than issues and ideas. It is not a productive pastime to engage in ad hominem. I may not agree with everything Sensuki have proposed at all times, but everything he has ever suggested has been in the best interest of the game, and he's always discussed the issues sensibly and judged them by their own right. I don't think there's anyone else anyone can make that claim for.

[Amentep]

 

Maze actually did have a counter - barbarian rage. As for save or else, I much prefer PoE's system. Grazes half the duration, so even if you paralyze someone for 4 secs, it just gives you some breathing room, not that you can forget about this enemy. Same when your character gets charmed for 4 secs - if she uses a heavy weapon, there's a good chance that she won't even have time to hit anyone (allies targeting flipped companions is a problem though, but I'm pretty sure it's an oversight and not a design choice, at least for the player's party).

 

BTW many D&D spells weren't save-or-else either. Hold person, for instance, allowed the target to re-roll every round, so if the target's save was high enough, a single (un)lucky hit wasn't a death sentence.

 

 

I'm certainly sure maze got hard countered by something like spell immunity:abjuration.

 

 

Maze was a Conjuration/Summoning school spell - you could pick it as the school to protect against when you cast Spell Immunity and be immune to its effect.  If you knew an opponent had Maze in their repertoire.  The "if" there being the bone of contention with save-or-else spells, how do you legitimately know the first time through you'll face that particular spell (IIRC not many in BG2 had access to Maze).

 

Rage was also a counter...for some reason I can't fathom (don't remember it being the case in non-IE D&D but I could be misremembering).  Rage granting immunity really only helped if the PC had it, because otherwise Maze had no saving throw and the way BG worked, mazing the PC was a "party wipe" even if you had party members still fighting and even if they had the spell available to free one from the Maze (a peculiarity unique to IE, not part of D&D)  In 2nd edition - if memory serves me - Maze only put you out for a certain number of rounds/turns based on your intelligence (as you literally were finding your way out of an extra-dimensional maze).

 

EDIT: Just to make it clear, I hated Maze in the IE games first time through.  Sure I reloaded and used the protections once I knew it was there, but having the PC mazed shouldn't cause end-of-game and Spell Immunity Conjuration was fairly useless otherwise (not completely useless, it protected against Melf's Acid Arrows, IIRC).

Edited April 24, 2015 by Amentep

[Hiro Protagonist II]

His behavior since launch has not given a favorable impression.

 

And, yes, I was watching the  boards during beta, and he really went out of his way to do true beta testing.  Unfortunately, like a lot of other people who get wrapped up in something, he then apparently thought that he had earned the right to design the game itself.  It doesn't work that way, and after putting heart and soul into something for so long it stings. 

 

Nonetheless, other people have  not only a right but a duty to tell someone that what they're doing is counterproductive, especially if it's causing you to lose well-earned respect for what they do.

 

You seem to be as butthurt as TheisEjsing. And no, Sensuki didn't think he earned the right to design the game. Sensuki came up with suggestions to improve the game, a lot of backers agreed with his suggestions. Some didn't. Obsidian ignored a lot of those suggestions and we have a game that could have been better than what it is. eg. Suggestions like cyan for neutral NPCs which is now part of the IE mod. Fact.

 

Can we get back to the actual topic.