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Sensuki

RPGCodex Review #1 - Hŵrpa Dwrp

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I don't think taking criticism from Peons like us is one of Sawyer's strong points.

he not need our pov, but we will observe that insofar as boardie feedback/interplay, josh has matured considerably over the years.  in the past it were extreme easy to goad josh into emotional responses.  those outbursts were illuminating.  when josh got steamed, he were no longer speaking as a black isle employee, but rather as josh sawyer.  we kinda miss those days.  one too may iwd2 ranger moments has given josh experience and maturity to weather the worst the boards have to offer.  regardless, josh handles criticism with far more maturity and reserve than he did in the past, but am kinda missing the past. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Indeed and I remember those days too. Rather, now, he simply ignores criticism. It must be a frustrating babel for him, but I do wonder if he's perhaps too tin-eared nowadays?


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you are as much a yutz as luckman.  again, not only is the ie games use o' hard counters and insta-kills direct attributable to D&D, but focus on the d& d aspect as if that is important is... stooped

Excellent try! But we all know full well that the entire discussion is about us pitting PoE against the IE games (and still is!), NOT D&D. If it was strictly about wanting D&D, then we wouldn't have a whole lot to debate here, would we... since PoE itself takes so much from D&D already. In fact, it takes some things from D&D that the BG series (for example) doesn't. Will Saves; Fortitude Saves; Reflex Saves; Reach weapon mechanics; a modified attack of opportunity system; A Disintegration spell that isn't an insta-kill; A class that plays like a psionisist; A knockdown ability for fighters; Animal companions for Rangers; Stealth, lockpicking and trap disarming as skills that everyone can use; Wizard Spellbooks as physical objects that take up inventory space....ETC. ETC.

 

No, man. It's YOU who are being an obtuse yutz. It's YOU who came here, spouted a retarded gross generalization of what others want. And now it's YOU who's getting called out for it.

Edited by Stun

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Re: Sensuki

 

The lack of proper class design and mechanic design is imo not a sign of over production :) I think the real issue was and will always be that at the beginning of this KS Obsidian had nothing, ZERO world, ZERO plan, ZERO design documents. By time beta feedback like yours came to bear was already the time most of the systems were solidified via internal work by Obsidian but because everything was rushed I would assume the "mechanics" and "plot" work was never properly reviewed before it was put into production.

 

 

That's ONE theory of how the game came to be as it is (which you can like and dislike as an end product, opinions and all -- I'm pretty strongly one of the former group). One thing I've personally gathered from developer interviews as well as those KS pitches, and that is a trap of KS in particular, is that "design by committee" thing that can kick into place. Kind of harkens back to my claim about how people argue for that they think they'd want rather than what they actually want in some ways. I didn't follow the process much, but retrospectively I became interested in the design and read a lot of older interviews. It became immediately apparent that some stuff was taken out outright or at the very least altered because a majority of backers/Big Beta Testing Group didn't like what they saw. The important thing is that the game likely wasn't completely finished at that point, i.e. the balancing of all systems wasn't done yet. So whilst the designers may clearly have had an intention going into a particular direction, all the beta testers may see was incremencial steps trying to get there fully -- and then, this is a bit of a harsh word, "sabotaging" it outright.

 

I think feedback is important, from players also, but I'm actually a proposal of an author, of authorship with a clear vision being grabbed and being run with  (it's not as if a studio such as Obsidian would be totally inbred, there's lots of people with experience also giving feedback from inside and both outside the direct development process). Kickstarter in a sense is all about the players and their whishes that with the money they personally put in may come true. In some regards, that can be a hugely pitfall right there. Naturally, that's the other way to look at it. I've briefly been involved into the beta testing of a sports simulation about a very ambigious sports, and as it is an ambigious sports in which few key moments decide matches and thus you don't in any way need to "dominate" your opposition to a degree to win and thus nowhere near a proven science, and luck and chance play such an important part, and everyone is suspect to confirmation bias to some degree and has a preference of how the sports is supposed to be played (beautifully) --- anyway, let me end: because all of that, it is no NDA breaching super secret that feedback might differ. An RPG based on clear cut P&P rulesets at its core might not be as ambiguous as that, though naturally chance plays its part also (that roll of the dice, party rosters are up for grabs and to be filled individually to each tester too). But yeah.

Edited by Sven_
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is a lotta very general criticisms, which is ok as is sensuki's opinions. your opinions don't actual require justifications. claim that cult o' the eyeless or bg2 thieves guild quests is superior investigative design to poe final act or blood legacy is opinions.

Blood Legacy quest has less steps than both The Cult of the Unseeing Eye and Mae'Var's Guildhall and the investigation part is completely optional, and mostly for flavor. It is also accompanied by the worst dungeon in the game (thankfully you can almost completely bypass it though) and the dialogue with Wymund also has several issues.

 

Both Unseeing Eye and Mae'Vars had multiple steps and good accompanying content. To complete Blood Legacy, all you need to do is go to the Tanner's shop, take his key, go into the dungeon and go into Wymund's room and resolve it there.

 

Obsidian do improve some aspects of quest design. There's usually a fair bit of choice and often multiple resolutions. They often have 'more' of that than the BG games, although not always 'better'. Personally I care more about actual content associated with the quest than that stuff.

 

*sigh*

 

multiple ways to complete a quest is a good thing, no? for a codexian grognard, the fact that you need not adhere to the narrative rails should be a positive. need gaal's key to open a magically locked door is exact the kinda thing codexians typical rail against, yes?  also, we already noted that bg2 had larger scope.  oh, and we suspect that the additional steps o' final act slipped your notice.  however, it is good you note the consequences o' poe resolutions that is absent in the typical ie games.  

 

again, we see lotta opinions... and some hypocrisy.

 

and "worst dungeon" language is exact the kinda empty criticism we is referencing.  

 

HA! Good Fun!


"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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Some astute observations from Sven.

 

There were, broadly speaking, three groups.

 

1. IE grogs who wanted a BG-esque experience mechanically, while happily eschewing D&D

 

2. Planescapers / Story-tymers who loved the idea of text, quest-XP and wacky mechanics

 

3. Peaceful herbivores who were happy to see where it went.

 

They met us in the middle, if I'm honest. Of course, falling into the first camp as I do, I think they went too far keeping the story-tymers happy. They will think the opposite. But it would be interesting to wargame how this game would look with a bigger nudge to either the first or second camp.

 

Given the heritage of the BGs and IWDs (4.5 games) versus Planescape (1 game) the answer should be obvious. Ha ha ha.


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[...]

 

Either way, I did not participate in the beta so as to not spoil the game for me. But I think if your stance and opinions had spread further and earlier into the dev process we could have a proper IE game with PoEt. But as you had to fight against established systems already during beta, there was no way you could drastically alter the already planned out course of development.

I must've missed the moment when big time gamedev studios started to overhaul entire systems mid production because of preferences of one public beta tester. Oh, well.

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Ah yes. The lack of arrows. The lack of choice between a detonation arrow, a fire arrow, a poison arrow and the various other arrows. I don't see the problem with having all those types of arrows in the IE games. I thought it was great that my character with a bow could shoot fireballs and then instantly change to poison arrows and then change to biting arrows because I had three different types of arrows in the quiver slots. Interesting that you would forego all that and go with the infinite ammo in PoE that never runs out. And in PoE, if your bow does fire damage but you want to do cold damage but still want to be able to keep fire for other enemies, you have to swap with another bow. Yep, you have to keep an assortment of weapons for different types of damage. But that's okay, because at least we don't have the different types of arrows from the IE games. All that's done is swap different arrows with different bows.

 

 

While I just used the quiver of endless arrows, or that bow that created it's own ammunition - because I didn't want to bother with this ammo/inventory management crap. :)

 

No offense meant, just seems like a few of you folks played those games with a very different play style than most. (example the above, complaints about lack of kitting, refusal to rest).

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you are as much a yutz as luckman.  again, not only is the ie games use o' hard counters and insta-kills direct attributable to D&D, but focus on the d& d aspect as if that is important is... stooped

Excellent try! But we all know full well that the entire discussion saw us pitting PoE against the IE games, NOT D&D. If it was strictly about wanting D&D, then we wouldn't have a whole lot to debate here, since PoE itself takes so much from D&D already. In fact, it takes some things from D&D that the BG series (for example) doesn't. Will Saves; Fortitude Saves; Reflex Saves; Reach weapon mechanics; a modified attack of opportunity system; A Disintegration spell that isn't an insta-kill; A class that plays like a psionisist; A knockdown ability for fighters; Animal companions for Rangers; Stealth, lockpicking and trap disarming as skills that everyone can use; Wizard Spellbooks as physical objects that take up inventory space....ETC. ETC.

 

No, man. It's YOU who are being an obtuse yutz. It's YOU who came here, spouted a retarded gross generalization of what others want. And now it's YOU who's getting called out for it.

 

you are making no sense at all.  the infinity engine game hard counters and insta-kills are problematic or not regardless o' their origin.  their origin is d&d rules, but so what? if hard counter's had been dreamt up by kevin ohlen while running his pnp campaigns before working on bg, it wouldn't make one bit o' difference to a discussion o' their usefulness or detriment.  

 

talk 'bout deflection.  you are pathological. 

 

 

 

Indeed and I remember those days too. Rather, now, he simply ignores criticism. It must be a frustrating babel for him, but I do wonder if he's perhaps too tin-eared nowadays?

 

 

 

 

dunno. Gromnir has been more than a little bit harsh with josh sawyer over the years.  even so, we don't feel that he treats us with any kinda animosity, though doing so would be understandable.  yeah, he is responding less frequent or less open-- we suspect that josh is currently posting and fielding criticism with regularity on these boards albeit not as josh.  we haven't noticed unreasonable pique from him.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited by Gromnir
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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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@ Grom. Very possibly. I still maintain one of his gifts as a designer is hammering existing systems into shape, making them fit for purpose with games*. His home-brew is too bitter for my lazy palate.

 

 

 

 

* IWD2 / FO:NV both being outstanding examples of his talent in this respect.


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you are making no sense at all.  the infinity engine game hard counters and insta-kills are problematic or not regardless o' their origin.  their origin is d&d rules, but so what? if hard counter's had been dreamt up by kevin ohlen while running his pnp campaigns before working on bg, it wouldn't make one bit o' difference to a discussion o' their usefulness or detriment.

What is this, a new tactic from you? You can't refute the points, so you'll just turn around and agree with them?

 

YES Gromnir. The IE games had hard counters and insta-kills. And for those of us who enjoy those mechanics, it does not matter whether they came from D&D, or whether Ray Musyka invented them in a Canadian medical school. And it does not matter because we don't care about D&D... Our PoE vs. IE comparison arguments on this thread are based strictly on our IE games experiences, not our D&D ones, contrary to your incessantly repeated previous claims that we're just whining because we want more D&D. Duh.

Edited by Stun
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And I still find myself shaking my head - here is a game that is doing better in public reception (and, I'd bet sales) than they had any right to expect - and we're talking about this game as if it is some complete failure.  It's Alice in Wonderland.  As a direct counterexample, Might & Magic X, Wasteland 2, and Shadowrun Returns got genuinely mixed feedback on release - which is the sort of case where developers really do usually step back and reconsider things.  Berlin, for instance, is considerably more substantial than the first SR game was - answering the strongest critique. 

 

I think that they'd be well served adjusting encounter design, working on more clever AI, and not on drastically messing around with game systems if they're working on changes in the combat side.  You can keep engagement and change how sticky it is; you can throw enemies at a party from different directions, or have more ranged opponents who are more clever about targeting damage dealers, etc.  To me, it is a lot more important to integrate story line ingredients more deeply. Having reputation matter more, or having people respond more strongly via background;

 

By contrast, ripping up game systems and starting over means that the things above just don't happen - you have fixed resources  And I've seen enough game systems in action that I know that you can make a fun game in a lot of different ways.  The criticism here is largely not helpful because it largely consists of people advocating wholesale redesign of a successful game launch, basically nursing grudges from beta.  "Engagement is too sticky" is a valid critique; "throw it out" is not a useful suggestion.  Those advocating hard counters could be advocating for more severe penalties/ bonuses in the current system (which might happen) as opposed to demanding complete reworks (which won't)....

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*sigh*

 

multiple ways to complete a quest is a good thing, no? for a codexian grognard, the fact that you need not adhere to the narrative rails should be a positive. need gaal's key to open a magically locked door is exact the kinda thing codexians typical rail against, yes?  also, we already noted that bg2 had larger scope.  oh, and we suspect that the additional steps o' final act slipped your notice.  however, it is good you note the consequences o' poe resolutions that is absent in the typical ie games.  

 

again, we see lotta opinions... and some hypocrisy.

 

and "worst dungeon" language is exact the kinda empty criticism we is referencing.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

Excuse me, but I never said that choice OR multiple resolutions were bad things. They are good things. Personally though I'll take better gameplay content with more linearity over worse gameplay content with more choice and multiple outcomes IF I have to choose between them.

 

You said BG2 the game had larger scope. Yes it did. I was however talking about quest complexity and to me that involves steps required to complete a quests, quest overlap/intertwining and branching.

 

I have not played the end of Pillars of Eternity, I stopped playing during Act 3. Maybe there is some better content there. I couldn't say. Act 1 and 2 quests were all pretty basic with a step or two with some choices.

 

The Skaen Temple is the worst dungeon because it is a large dungeon that has very disappointing loot and the worst example of copy paste encounter design in the game. On Hard difficulty there's like 70 Skaen Cultists, most are the same five classes and most encounters are makeups of these classes. It was literally the most monotonous content I played in the game. I absolutely hated it.

 

I didn't play that dungeon in the beta because of performance issues. I upgraded my PC to an i7 4790k shortly after the game came out so I could run the levels with more units. The game still runs badly in Copperlane though.

 

The Skaen Temple should have just included the room with Wymund and maybe one other room. The rest of the dungeon was ****ing pointless. I never found myself saying "this should be smaller" in any of the Infinity Engine games.

Edited by Sensuki
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And I still find myself shaking my head - here is a game that is doing better in public reception (and, I'd bet sales) than they had any right to expect -

Ok, Update me because I'm apparently out of the Loop. Has anyone released PoE sales figures that we can look at an analyze? I know about the Paradox press release where it is announced that 2 games came together to generate $18 Million, but that doesn't tell us squat about PoE's sales. Does it. We have no idea, for example, how much of that $18 million is PoE and how much of it is that Skylines game.

 

And tell me when sales suddenly became the ultimate confirmation of quality. Must have been sometime after Skyrim, I'd wager, since I'm not seeing too many people here hailing Skyrim as 10 times better than Baldurs Gate 2.

Edited by Stun

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The Skaen Temple should have just included the room with Wymund and maybe one other room. The rest of the dungeon was ****ing pointless. I never found myself saying "this should be smaller" in any of the Infinity Engine games.

 

Firewine Ruins? :p

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Ok, Update me because I'm apparently out of the Loop. Has anyone released PoE sales figures that we can look at an analyze? I know about the Paradox press release where it is announced that 2 games came together to generate $18 Million, but that doesn't tell us squat about PoE's sales. Does it. We have no idea, for example, how much of that $18 million is PoE and how much of it is that Skylines game.

 

And tell me when sales suddenly became the ultimate confirmation of quality. Must have been sometime after Skyrim, I'd wager, since I'm not seeing too many people here hailing Skyrim as 10 times better than Baldurs Gate 2.

 

Not willing to try digging up the article, but I recall reading something along the lines that Skylines was accounting for around 11 million of that.

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I didn't mind the Firewine Ruins because you had to manage your party. Kobolds kept respawning so you had to protect your squishies. You had to manage your HP as the Kobold Commandos could do serious damage after a while, and you had to carefully maneuver through the dungeon.

 

It was a bit of a pain in the ass because of the tiny corridors, but I didn't think it was as bad as this. It also took way less time to clear the dungeon ;)

Edited by Sensuki

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I didn't mind the Firewine Ruins because you had to manage your party. Kobolds kept respawning so you had to protect your squishies. You had to manage your HP as the Kobold Commandos could do serious damage after a while, and you had to carefully maneuver through the dungeon.

 

It was a bit of a pain in the ass because of the tiny corridors, but I didn't think it was as bad as this. It also took way less time to clear the dungeon ;)

Yeah, that was firmly tongue-in-cheek. I actually like the ruins as well. The real hair-pulling frustration is, as you noted, the narrow corridors (and the pathfinding combined).

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And I still find myself shaking my head - here is a game that is doing better in public reception (and, I'd bet sales) than they had any right to expect - and we're talking about this game as if it is some complete failure.

I love classic Doctor Who. Total mark for the classic show; love watching it and have done so repeatedly.

 

But I can still point out when the set wobbles.

 

With respect to PoE; people who like it might not like everything (or perhaps just think some things could be done better even if it is good as is) and the people who don't like clearly have stronger issues. HOW GREEN WAS MY VALLEY won Best Picture in 1942 and was a well received film...should it have won over CITIZEN KANE? Being well received is only part of a story (although the part production companies tend to care about because good reception tends to equate to sales).

 

Some astute observations from Sven.

 

There were, broadly speaking, three groups.

 

1. IE grogs who wanted a BG-esque experience mechanically, while happily eschewing D&D

 

2. Planescapers / Story-tymers who loved the idea of text, quest-XP and wacky mechanics

 

3. Peaceful herbivores who were happy to see where it went.

 

They met us in the middle, if I'm honest. Of course, falling into the first camp as I do, I think they went too far keeping the story-tymers happy. They will think the opposite. But it would be interesting to wargame how this game would look with a bigger nudge to either the first or second camp.

 

Given the heritage of the BGs and IWDs (4.5 games) versus Planescape (1 game) the answer should be obvious. Ha ha ha.

I'm such a herbivore. :(

 

To be honest, I basically kept my expectations at "Made by Obsidian, Isometric view, fantasy RPG". I felt it was the best way to not get hung up on the D&D aspects of the IE games (or how the IE games implemented them) and be dissapointed that the game could never be D&D.

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You don't play a game for 200 hours and say it sucks :p

Sure you can. I was miserable for well over a year before I looked into getting divorced. Sticking with something horrible is all about your hope of things getting good, and very little to do with whether they are. Edited by scrotiemcb
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I read the review, but not the 29 pages of comments here, so sorry if I say something out of context.

 

The review is way too negative IMO, but I have to agree to some of the points. And I feel the need to share because I hardly manage to continue playing (Skaen dungeon really annoyed me, too).

Reasons:

 

- The main story just won't catch fire. I don't understand the motivation that's supposedly driving the player character. Why am I even doing all this?

 

- I also don't understand the motivation behind the NPCs. Why is Aloth following me through hell and beyond? Who am I to him? To Kana or to the little druid guy? Why are people helping me, why do I help people? Believable motivations are scarce in this game.

 

- Combat is extremely repetitive. I use the same skills over and over, each encounter is the same. Druids, lions, trolls, spiders, ... just send your tank(s) ahead, use a few disablers/debuffs, focus-fire each enemy until they are dead, done. I never need to adapt my strategy, except for ghosts - maybe, a bit (I play on hard).

 

- The attributes are unimmersive and easily exploited by minmaxing. I have a 3 con main char and never regretted it.

 

I haven't played for days and might dump the game for a while if nothing changes soon. But then again, most games nowadays need a few weeks/month and at least 2 or 3 major gameplay patches to become good, so it's not overly surprising ;)

Edited by Tomice

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We collectively contributed $4 million for this game folks. We got a lot of bang for our buck.

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You might have.

 

Wanna buy my CE ?

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We collectively contributed $4 million for this game folks. We got a lot of bang for our buck.

Well...we got the game. That's what I contributed for - to give Obsidian a chance to make a game.

 

Liking it is gravy to that goal for me.

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Thanks KP. Seriously, why couldn't that NPC be outside of Defiance Bay on the bridge map with a makeshift smithy? I know for any future playthroughs, I'll get the components and see Dunstan before finishing Act 2.

 

Because there's no reason for it. Defiance Bay is open to the player again the moment you reach Twin Elms. In fact the whole "closing" of Defiance Bay is such a non-event, it makes me wonder why they even did it.

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*sigh*

 

multiple ways to complete a quest is a good thing, no? for a codexian grognard, the fact that you need not adhere to the narrative rails should be a positive. need gaal's key to open a magically locked door is exact the kinda thing codexians typical rail against, yes?  also, we already noted that bg2 had larger scope.  oh, and we suspect that the additional steps o' final act slipped your notice.  however, it is good you note the consequences o' poe resolutions that is absent in the typical ie games.  

 

again, we see lotta opinions... and some hypocrisy.

 

and "worst dungeon" language is exact the kinda empty criticism we is referencing.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

Excuse me, but I never said that choice OR multiple resolutions were bad things. They are good things. Personally though I'll take better gameplay content with more linearity over worse gameplay content with more choice and multiple outcomes IF I have to choose between them.

 

You said BG2 the game had larger scope. Yes it did. I was however talking about quest complexity and to me that involves steps required to complete a quests, quest overlap/intertwining and branching.

 

I have not played the end of Pillars of Eternity, I stopped playing during Act 3. Maybe there is some better content there. I couldn't say. Act 1 and 2 quests were all pretty basic with a step or two with some choices.

 

The Skaen Temple is the worst dungeon because it is a large dungeon that has very disappointing loot and the worst example of copy paste encounter design in the game. On Hard difficulty there's like 70 Skaen Cultists, most are the same five classes and most encounters are makeups of these classes. It was literally the most monotonous content I played in the game. I absolutely hated it.

 

I didn't play that dungeon in the beta because of performance issues. I upgraded my PC to an i7 4790k shortly after the game came out so I could run the levels with more units. The game still runs badly in Copperlane though.

 

The Skaen Temple should have just included the room with Wymund and maybe one other room. The rest of the dungeon was ****ing pointless. I never found myself saying "this should be smaller" in any of the Infinity Engine games.

 

am not seeing why additional mandatory steps make a quest better.  there is any number o' possible blood legacy steps you are ignoring by identifying that it is an option than you can simple bull your way into the skaen temple and kill stuff. you say you like options, but you ignore them?  well, that is hardly fair, is it?  is more than a few folks in dyrford village that can contribute to your investigation.  is funny that you note investigation, 'cause you can actual do investigation in blood legacy that is absent in eyeles and the thieves guild quest from bg2.  in poe we can ask villagers questions, and depending on our question, dispositions and attribute scores, our Investigation will yield different information.  but again, you should at least be recognizing that what you think is objective is actual just sensuki opinion.  more mandatory steps?  

 

oh, and multiple resolutions has never impressed us.  is easy to add multiple resolutions at the end o' a quest where no more possible quest or dialogue  bifurcation is taking place. multiple options previous to the end is far more taxin on the developer, and that is what poe were doing that bg2 often failed to do. 

 

and the monotony o'  the skaen temple is, again, opinion.  weren't our favorite portion o' the game neither, but the sacrifice pit is kinda unique, and the multiple ways to gain access to the temple make it less monotonous for people who didn't play it dozens o' times in the beta.  heck, can skip a significant number o battles using sneak and the rope trick, which makes much o't the monotony you found optional.

 

fewer enemies?  well, again, that is part o' scope.  bg2 had multiple games to build up a rogue's gallery.  for example, the trolls that caused lucky such trouble were actual in iwd.  is more than a few monsters bioware used in bg2 that were black isle work product... shoulda' used black isle elementals in our estimation.  regardless,  skaen temple area has two varieties o' beetles and four or five variations o' skaen cultists, each with unique abilities.  the ending boss encounter has additional unique foes... 3 ish? compare to firewine bridge dungeon, or any bg1 dungeon.  the largest single bg1 dungeon is under candlekeep where had skeletons, phase spiders, ghasts, and dopplegangers and greater doppelgangers.  add the exit caves for basilisk and an enemy party.  and lets be honest, the poe foes offer far more significant tactical challenge than any o' those bg1 critters.  heck, it strikes us as fair to combine the wilderness map above the skaen temple to make a similar comparison as that is a possible ingress point.  if we do so, those two maps got more foe variation than all the candlekeep catacombs, and each poe foe is presenting more varied challenges.

 

"I never found myself saying "this should be smaller" in any of the Infinity Engine games."

 

again with what you don't see as opinion? 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited by Gromnir
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"If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927)

"Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019)

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