Where is the god damn tactics system?

[Arctic]

another one ... it seams you just want a game , where you can go in max dificulty setting with trial of iron, playing without thinking and dont die ....

 

"were is the button that makes me play the way i want??? you will say ... where there is one ..."

 

open console commands:

Iroll20s

God

 

then you can play path of iron without diing and without thinking in the fights

Edited April 2, 2015 by Arctic

[Longknife]

 In Dragon Age Origins I could set up my tactics and eliminate redundancy.

 

What is it with the bad RPG community and their worship of this word while simultaneously not understanding it's meaning?

[Kromzor]

How would a tactics system, like DA:O had, work in a game whose combat system doesn't have infinate resources like DA:O had?

DA had regenerating Mana and Stamina that characters used to fuel their attacks and spells.  In PoE a lot of stuff can only be used a finate number of times before you need to rest.

So in DA your Tactic would look like this "Enemy Sighted -> Cast BigNuke01" and it would cycle over and over until you ran out of mana, and would resume after you regened some mana.  In PoE that would simply result in your Wizard casting Meteor at a lv 1 Rabbid Wombat, and then you'd need to rest (assuming you even can).  The tactics system would either be turned off half the time, or be such a hindrence that it was turned off all the time.  I enjoyed DA:O, but the combat systems are completely different.

 

[StevenTheMathGuy]

Could a tactics system have been implemented in PoE?

 

Yes.

 

 

Would it have made the game better?

 

I really don't think so. First, scripting would burn through your Per Rest abilities. Second, tons of Per Encounter abilities have synergies with things from other classes, and you'd either spend hours coding your AI or have abilities used at foolish times. For instance, Flames of Devotion is probably the simplest ability in the game: Your next hit does double damage, with the added damage being of Fire type. But when should it be used? If it's a pack of easy trash, then using it ASAP is the best choice. If it's a challenging group, you could be better off using it right away on a weaker mob to minimize the tanking challenges or perhaps you should use it on the toughest mob to mitigate DR. But no matter what, you're probably better off waiting for the Druid to hobble the enemy and the Cipher to Paralyze it. But what about for fights when you've run out Druid spells... It's among the simplest abilities in the game, but the potential combinations and interactions is large enough that developing simple heuristics is still woefully inadequate.

 

Even if you or the community at large figured out good heuristics, you'd still need to wonder if it was the best use of resources. I'm a software engineer (recently quit Google to move back East and be near family), and adding any feature always takes developer time. Project management does not leave talent fallow. There aren't days where designers, engineers, and artists are just sitting back doing nothing. That means you're either cutting something else that would take equivalent work or you're pushing back the release date. Pushing back the release date costs money (employee wages, building and equipment rent, etc still need to be paid), but I think we'd rather have seen that than to have had other features cut.

 

Is this feature sufficiently necessary that its inclusion would draw enough added revenue to pay for the weeks of developer, designer, and artist time it would draw? Given limited resources is it the best usage?

 

I think not. This is probably Obsidian's least buggy release, but it still has several bugs that vary from annoying to incredibly frustrating to completely game breaking. There are tons of balance changes that are needed. The Stronghold could really use some expansion to feel less boringly generic. Those all would be more useful and a bigger player draw than an AI system that would necessarily be lackluster.

 

 

A player set "tactics system" kinda worked in DA:O and FFXII, but those games were much less complex than PoE. Even then, you were better off maintaining direct control. So, why implement it, if it won't be very useful and there's tons of other things? It's just not a good use of resources.

 

PoE probably had a total budget around $5M. If the average employee compensation is $50k (VERY rough guess, figuring that artists make 40k, designers 45k, and programmers 70k) and it took ~2.5 years to develop (Sept 2012 to March 2015 is just over 2.5 years) with a team of around 30 people (using rough numbers). That's $3.75M in employee compensation. Figure that 2 years of rent, power, computers, etc. eat up the remainder, and that's why they needed to share the post-release with Paradox... there wasn't any more money to handle marketing.

 

Even if they had another $1M, that money would probably have been better spent on expanding the stronghold system, getting more reactivity and variety in the quest solutions and other dialogue, creating more unique items, improving Q&A to ship with fewer bugs, and more variety in the Beta to achieve better game balance on release. A tactics system like that is probably near the bottom of the feature list in terms of player utility.

[Voss]

 

Still. Those are not passive abilities.

They are on use abilities.

So, use them.

Yes, manually.

 

I am, but it sucks. Hence the suggestion.

 

 

Yes, but you're suggestion is 'I don't like pizza.  Gimme a bowl of cereal.'  Not change toppings or make it half cheese/half ham, but toss out the entire pizza and eat something entirely different.

[Infares]

Your party formation is as close to "tactics" as it gets. Use the pause system. 

This game punishes facerolling except for a precious few builds minmaxed for precisely that, and that requires a lot of metagaming and theorycraft to pull off, especially in the higher difficulties. 

[Hellraiser789]

So what, you just want to set up tactics and let the game run itself? That seems kinda boring IMO.... I mean, it works in games like Dragon Age where you can just set up your companions tactics then play as yourself, but thats kind of a different combat style. This game is more about party control and managing everyone at the same time using the pause feature (yes that means potentially a LOT of micromanagement), similar to BG 1/2 and Icewind Dale 1/2. Dragon Age is more about playing as your character and having your companions back you up, similar to KOTOR 1 or 2. Just different combat styles. As others have mentioned, tactics just wouldn't have been worth adding when compared to everything else the could have done instead. Would it have been cool - maybe. But the IE games just had basic AI settings for party members (which were generally garbage anyway) and those games were great. In summary, this isnt a spirit successor to Dragon Age, its a spirit successor to the IE games, so tactics are unnecessary as the target audience generally enjoys micromanagement and party management.

[Smorensky]

Guys, just plz, ignore this thred. Luzarius is basically your run of the mill troll, and the worst part of it is he's not even a good troll. Instead just search his posts and have a good laugh

 

You know how the 1st rule of forums goes: "Don't feed the trolls!"

[NightHumper]

I found it disappointing that no tactics system is implemented. Why ?
Because i find myself doing the exact same things every single combat encounter...
And no, that does not make PoE an "oldschool rpg" or "more demanding because it does not think for you" like some here would like to think. It just makes it more repetitive and .
But i find it as a minor inconvenience because basically every other aspect of the game is fantastic.

[Mazuo]

The only trolls in this thread are those comparing wanting party AI with desiring an 'I Win' godmode button and those lambasting someone for having a different opinion than them.  BG1 had basic party member tactics that could be set.  It's embarrassing seeing people act as if this is some newbie casual request from people that have never played a similar game.

 

If you don't agree, say so and move along.  Stop harassing the guy.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Mazuo

[mahe4]

The only trolls in this thread are those comparing wanting party AI with desiring an 'I Win' godmode button and those lambasting someone for having a different opinion than them.  BG1 had basic party member tactics that could be set.  It's embarrassing seeing people act as if this is some newbie casual request from people that have never played a similar game.

 

If you don't agree, say so and move along.  Stop harassing the guy.

BG had it, because it didn't provide a lot of other features that help with your micromanagement, that this game has.

 

we strongly disagree, because we don't want any development time wasted on this "feature", that would be just implemented, to provide a suboptimal playstyle.

 

lets get this straight. there isn't a single ability, that needs to be activated at the exact same conditions at every fight in the game.

all abilities that are always needed are either modal or passive, and therefore wouldn't make sense in a tactic system.

every other ability is situational and is strongly dependant on the fight, the suroundings etc.

so why implement a tactical system?

so you have to click two times less in a fight?

you want that developers waste hours over hours implementing such a complex thing, so you can click 3-4 times less per battle?

see the cost vs the benefit?

benefit low

cost high

therefore not recommended

easy logic.

Edited April 2, 2015 by mahe4

[Mazuo]

What feature is PoE providing that greatly helps micromanagement over BG1?

[Katarack21]

The only trolls in this thread are those comparing wanting party AI with desiring an 'I Win' godmode button and those lambasting someone for having a different opinion than them.  BG1 had basic party member tactics that could be set.

And they were useless. Using the party AI in Baldur's Gate will get you killed because it's the ****tiest AI ever made by the hand of god or man. I can not count the number of times I screamed "WHAT THE **** ARE YOU DOING MINSC!!!" at my computer monitor for dragging some goddamed Sirens to me from across half the bloody map, nor at Edwin for trying to stab an Ogre, etc.

 

You know what I ended up doing in BG and BG2? I micromanaged like a madman, just like I'm doing here, and I enjoyed the process of creating, designing, and implementing my own tactics and strategies.

[Mazuo]

I'm glad that's what helped your own personal enjoyment.  Personally I used the tactics in a smart manner and prospered.

 

Keep in mind the implementation of a tactics system or better party AI isn't even critical in my mind.  However, the level of abuse being hurled over it is childish.

[Katarack21]

There is also the fact that party AI was left out solely due to time/budget constraints and they plan on adding it in a future patch.

[RunningWolf]

You can Queue orders if you hold Shift. No AI that they could afford would be usfull enough for playing on hard ironman and higher. So i really cant care less.

[Elvarein]

What feature is PoE providing that greatly helps micromanagement over BG1?

 

50% speed? The targeting circles showing the AOE? Shift Key to queue orders?

Edited April 2, 2015 by Elvarein

[mahe4]

What feature is PoE providing that greatly helps micromanagement over BG1?

 

what elvarein wrote, and that you can hold right mouse button and draw in which direction the formation should look.

you can create own formations.

you can sneak and look for traps at the same time

you have weapon sets

 

basically PoE helps you a lot there, the only thing that would decrease micromanagement is your "do everything for me" option.

[Hatred]

 I did try out the option for everyone to behave on auto pilot in DA:O. I hated it. If Obsidian put development time into making this a thing for Pillars I would  be posting some not very nice comments in the forums about it. It would definitely be pitchfork time.

[Mazuo]

Right-click and turning the formation was in BG.  It also has nothing to do with party AI.

 

It's really insulting to keep creating strawmen about 'doing everything for you', but about the level of discourse I've come to expect around here.

[DocDoomII]

Right-click and turning the formation was in BG.

WHAT! I never knew that 

I always did stupid maneuvers to turn them the way I wanted 

[Tigranes]

Tactics scripts would be nice for people who don't want to manage the combat. I think Obsidian thought about it, but it couldn't make the cut into POE1 at least.

 

I personally don't see what's so fun about them, though. It's like playing on god mode because you just want the story. OK, whatever works for you, but I'd rather not slice out a big chunk of what the game is about.

[Caerdon]

I can't believe this hasn't been mentioned yet...

 

The very reason DA:O had tactics scripts was because it was practically impossible to control your entire party the way it was possible in IE games. DA:O was designed by and large around the idea that you control one character at a time without a proper tactical overview, even if it wasn't strictly limited to such a control scheme.

 

Pillars of Eternity doesn't have tactics scripts because it gives you full tactical control over the entire party, all the time. Scripts are unnecessary.

[mahe4]

Right-click and turning the formation was in BG.  It also has nothing to do with party AI.

 

It's really insulting to keep creating strawmen about 'doing everything for you', but about the level of discourse I've come to expect around here.

really? well ok than i am wrong in that point. i didn't know that.

 

but what else would a tactics option be, other than a "play the game for me" option?

[luzarius]

 

 In Dragon Age Origins I could set up my tactics and eliminate redundancy.

 

What is it with the bad RPG community and their worship of this word while simultaneously not understanding it's meaning?

 

 

You are correct, I meant eliminate the repetitiveness, I was tired when I originally wrote this post.

 

Tactics scripts would be nice for people who don't want to manage the combat. I think Obsidian thought about it, but it couldn't make the cut into POE1 at least.

 

I personally don't see what's so fun about them, though. It's like playing on god mode because you just want the story. OK, whatever works for you, but I'd rather not slice out a big chunk of what the game is about.

 

A lot of you are acting like anyone can setup a good tactics setup for a party. For Dragon Age Origins, I had to perform lots of trial and error before I found a good tactics setup that worked with the party.  Keep in mind, I also play my games in a no death rule set, so achieving perfection is key. Eventually I had it down perfect and it felt like a great accomplishment.

 

When you setup tactics for your party, It feels like i'm with my group and we're discussing combat BEFORE the fight, preparing strategies ahead of time, it's very immersive.

 

Doing the same abilities over and over again in a repetitive way actually breaks immersion, no warrior or mage is this stupid to be need to be told to do the same exact thing over and over again. It's just getting boring having to click all these abilities in the same exact order in every single god damn fight. 

 

When you notice a certain degree of repetitiveness, your human nature yearns to automate and improve.  Does this mean Obsidian has no respect for humanities natural need to avoid repetition and improve?.

 

 

I can't believe this hasn't been mentioned yet...

 

The very reason DA:O had tactics scripts was because it was practically impossible to control your entire party the way it was possible in IE games. DA:O was designed by and large around the idea that you control one character at a time without a proper tactical overview, even if it wasn't strictly limited to such a control scheme.

 

Pillars of Eternity doesn't have tactics scripts because it gives you full tactical control over the entire party, all the time. Scripts are unnecessary.

 

The reason DAO had a tactics system was for people who want to avoid all the unnessary pausing.   Guys, I hate to break it to you, but you don't need to actually pause during the fight if you have a tactics system.  Nothing gives me more enjoyment than giving orders before a fight, then seeing those tactics come to fruition in absolute real time during a fight.

 

On a side note, I want to give this game a compliment. I really like how you can go in slow mode during the fight.

Edited April 2, 2015 by luzarius