Stronghold Immersion

[kat7ra]

You need to justify it yourself it seems, make up your immersion because the game does not give it to you.

I like these kind of building side quests, and I really liked the Nwn2 one, but this one is a very good example of a kickstarter promise imo, they said they'd do it, but it didn't really fit in with the story, and they wouldn't have the money and time to rewrite everything to maybe fit the stronghold in as a story/rp mechanic instead of just a game mechanic.

 

My biggest gripes with the game so far though is the sometimes over the top user friendliness, like the loot chest and the build anything anywhere psychic steward.

I don't really want a silly chest of holding without any explanation at the start of the game. And I wouldn't mind if the castle would require me to actually go there to do stuff, but that's just me I guess.

[Stratosj]

kat7ra I feel you. But for example BG and BG2 are extremely easy games if you chose to exploit the various cheap tricks and AI glitches in the game. So what do you do instead?

 

Don't forget to play the game you want to. Don't feel obliged to use cheap tricks if you discover some. Disable infinite inventory if you don't like it. Don't metagame your second, third or any other play through. Don't reload when you 'discover' a trap too late.

 

For example, I always return to the stronghold to check up on the new upgrade and issue a new one with the statue. I wouldn't have to but it makes sense to me. I justified taking the keep with this char but maybe I won't take it with the next one, even if it proves to be an advantage.

 

Heck, I've been distributing talents and skills on level ups based on what each character has been doing during that time so if we're spending time in the woods, everyone gets some survival. Ofc it's also fun to make the most (im)balanced party. Maybe I'll do that some other time but there are so many different ways to play these games so why not enjoy them all?

 

I think anyone that played the old IE games for a few times will tell you that they're neither difficult nor easy. They're what you make them to be.

[etagloc]

the stronghold one of the most forced things iv ever seen in a game. Its ofc a 100% optional but IMHO it should just have been skipped..

the location and story is okey.

but it feel empty and stupid, who made you lord of the land? after the initial intruduction its pretty much just a gold sink filler, that dosnt add anything to the game or its story.  

the attacks are meaningless
I think I found 1 guy I could take prisoner, but I forgot all about him.

I feels like they just added it because it was a KS goal the promised.

[kat7ra]

kat7ra I feel you. But for example BG and BG2 are extremely easy games if you chose to exploit the various cheap tricks and AI glitches in the game. So what do you do instead?

 

Don't forget to play the game you want to. Don't feel obliged to use cheap tricks if you discover some. Disable infinite inventory if you don't like it. Don't metagame your second, third or any other play through. Don't reload when you 'discover' a trap too late.

 

For example, I always return to the stronghold to check up on the new upgrade and issue a new one with the statue. I wouldn't have to but it makes sense to me. I justified taking the keep with this char but maybe I won't take it with the next one, even if it proves to be an advantage.

 

Heck, I've been distributing talents and skills on level ups based on what each character has been doing during that time so if we're spending time in the woods, everyone gets some survival. Ofc it's also fun to make the most (im)balanced party. Maybe I'll do that some other time but there are so many different ways to play these games so why not enjoy them all?

 

I think anyone that played the old IE games for a few times will tell you that they're neither difficult nor easy. They're what you make them to be.

Thing is, most of the IE stuff is clearly not intentional, force talking Firkraag and then killing him without getting attacked back is not what the devs wanted. Here the "quality of life" parts of the game is very much intentional, and I hate handicapping myself on purpose because a game is too easy, any game get's difficult if you turn of the screen, doens't mean I'm gonna do it. (Over the top example I know)

My gripe with the stash is that even with it turned off, it's not really turned off. All the crafting stuff goes there automatically, and if you press loot all by accident it goes to the stash as well, which then makes it silly that you'd have to walk to your stash because your loot magically transported there. And not being able to drop items also makes it hard to handicap myself on the stash, since I can't remove any of the stuff unless I sell it, and if I don't sell all the trash I'll end up having an insane mess.

My current "fix" is to only loot what I would consider "good" loot, no more ****ty armours or pokers from my enemies, fine or better items only. Which will hopefully help with the insane gold amount I got after only five levels of Endless paths.

I do my best to stick to proper "rping" but some of the stuff is very immersion breaking anyway.

[Sky_walker]

IMHO it should be possible to hire workers in a cities of villages, and each building should require some minimum amount of workers (eg. 15 for the Towers - the most difficult building, 1 for the garden - the easiest one). Player should be responsible for hiring them, they shouldn't spawn out of nowhere.

 

It'd also be great to have some NPCs walking around, not just guards, perhaps also having traders delivering supplies to the shops from time to time.

 

Some animals, like birds or squirrels, living and moving around would be great too.

 

In general Stronghold should be a living place where things happen. Not just a static decoration it is now.

[Elfwyn]

I really love the concept of the Stronghold and I would hate to miss it in this games descendands, because people complain about it now for some reason or another.

 

With such elaborate detail going into the soul-histories of stand-in-npcs I am just a bit surprised that so little refinement went into the Stronghold. Of course it could be even greater with an overhault of related quests and such, but a little work around the edges would be sufficient (for me) to let it blend in with the rest of the story better. It has to be financially feasible to refine it, or else it will just stay as it is.

 

Maybe the Stronghold was just taken "too literally" and neglected because it was deemed a hindrance to the story - I for one don't think it is and would like to see new takes on this epic meta-game in future titles.

[matthewfarmery]

I really love the concept of the Stronghold and I would hate to miss it in this games descendands, because people complain about it now for some reason or another.

 

With such elaborate detail going into the soul-histories of stand-in-npcs I am just a bit surprised that so little refinement went into the Stronghold. Of course it could be even greater with an overhault of related quests and such, but a little work around the edges would be sufficient (for me) to let it blend in with the rest of the story better. It has to be financially feasible to refine it, or else it will just stay as it is.

 

Maybe the Stronghold was just taken "too literally" and neglected because it was deemed a hindrance to the story - I for one don't think it is and would like to see new takes on this epic meta-game in future titles.

 

 

if they tweak the system, and lessen the amount of raids, and make adventures more meaningful, and add more stuff to it, I could see it working, but I do think the stronghold over endless paths was a mistake, that should have been a separate dungeon and not linked to the stronghold in any way, as the attacks from stuff under it, seems forced, when they attack, so it forces to to clear the dungeon, rather then a place you want to go and find yourself. that would have made the attacks a lot less, and you only have to deal with bandits, and the security level of the stronghold should have brought the attacks down.

 

instead, the higher the security the prestige the more attacks, which is annoying, so I don't see how anyone can really safely advance the story when these events keep cropping up, I don't have any hirelings, and seems to be bugs with them. the idea is great in theory, but something needs to be done to tweak this and make it less forced and less dependent on player intervention when you trying to play the rest of the game.

 

I'm not really complaining, maybe I am, the idea is great, but more thought needs to be done to make it worthwhile and not a hindrance to the player, and the current system does make it a hindrance. if the stronghold gets tweaked and balanced, I can see it been a good place to have. just not right at the moment.

[pi2repsion]

This and all the YOLO tombstones have no place in a contender, but they promised these features very early in development when they might have looked good on paper. They weren't good ideas, they know that now, I guarantee it. 

Tombstones with cheap jokes, silly rhymes, RIPs for family members or friends, and RL references have been a feature of CRPGs since the mid-80's Ultima games, a place where game developers could have a bit of light fun without compromising the game, and choosing that staple of old-school CRPG games as a place for backers to put in their own silliness or respectful dedications was a great idea.

 

The only people who get offended by it are those looking to be offended, and bad cess to them.

[Primislas]

My only concern is that yes it does indeed feel empty. We build a forum for heated debates worth 4 prestige points, yet it's always empty. A state of the art library that overawes Kana, yet there're no scholars studying there. Who's tending to the botanical garden? A single monk in this big prestigious chapel? No guards training at that ground? Etc, etc. Just populate it with more people, add more life and movement. Passing caravans and drifters etc.

 

Otherwise I like it. A good money sink that adds a nice sense of pace to the game, being built ever so slowly as you adventure around. Every so often I have to return there to fend off attacks, adventures keep my extra companions on par with my experience, bounties are great challenges, free stat bonuses from resting. What's not to like?

 

And given that I haven't followed development too closely, isn't the whole master-below-labyrinth tied to the stronghold as part of the KS stronghold reward tier? Haven't finished it yet, so not sure if it's related to the story in any way. But even if it's not, it's yet another mystery and one more adventure related to the Watcher, should he choose to inherit the keep.

[Stratosj]

 

 

kat7ra I feel you. But for example BG and BG2 are extremely easy games if you chose to exploit the various cheap tricks and AI glitches in the game. So what do you do instead?

 

Don't forget to play the game you want to. Don't feel obliged to use cheap tricks if you discover some. Disable infinite inventory if you don't like it. Don't metagame your second, third or any other play through. Don't reload when you 'discover' a trap too late.

 

For example, I always return to the stronghold to check up on the new upgrade and issue a new one with the statue. I wouldn't have to but it makes sense to me. I justified taking the keep with this char but maybe I won't take it with the next one, even if it proves to be an advantage.

 

Heck, I've been distributing talents and skills on level ups based on what each character has been doing during that time so if we're spending time in the woods, everyone gets some survival. Ofc it's also fun to make the most (im)balanced party. Maybe I'll do that some other time but there are so many different ways to play these games so why not enjoy them all?

 

I think anyone that played the old IE games for a few times will tell you that they're neither difficult nor easy. They're what you make them to be.

Thing is, most of the IE stuff is clearly not intentional, force talking Firkraag and then killing him without getting attacked back is not what the devs wanted. Here the "quality of life" parts of the game is very much intentional, and I hate handicapping myself on purpose because a game is too easy, any game get's difficult if you turn of the screen, doens't mean I'm gonna do it. (Over the top example I know)

My gripe with the stash is that even with it turned off, it's not really turned off. All the crafting stuff goes there automatically, and if you press loot all by accident it goes to the stash as well, which then makes it silly that you'd have to walk to your stash because your loot magically transported there. And not being able to drop items also makes it hard to handicap myself on the stash, since I can't remove any of the stuff unless I sell it, and if I don't sell all the trash I'll end up having an insane mess.

My current "fix" is to only loot what I would consider "good" loot, no more ****ty armours or pokers from my enemies, fine or better items only. Which will hopefully help with the insane gold amount I got after only five levels of Endless paths.

I do my best to stick to proper "rping" but some of the stuff is very immersion breaking anyway.

Yeah I would also like these issues to be addressed in the game's settings rather than having to impose restrictions upon myself or use mods. Until that happens I'm gonna keep forcing myself but I suppose it won't hurt to be vocal.

[Jean-Luc]

I like the stronghold but it is true that's it's very mechanical and non-immersive. There's definitely room for improvement. 

Edited April 1, 2015 by Jean-Luc

[Barleypaper]

I'd like to add that the cost of the upgrades and repairs is also a pretty big immersion breaker for me.

 

I can restore an entire gatehouse for the cost of a decent-ish axe. What? I can hire a full time soldier for 10 copper a day? I'm no expert on Dywoodan economics, but I'm pretty sure extensive construction work on a keep is going to be a bit more expensive than a few nights rest at run-down inn in Gilded Vale.

 

In Neverwinter Nights 2, your stronghold was subsidized by Lord Nasher, allowing huge sums of money to be thrown around without endangering suspension of disbelief. I thought that a similar thing was going to happen with Lord Raedric. And that he would provide a workforce. I don't think that would have been difficult to implement.

 

For all the implication of it being some sort of end-game money sink, it hasn't even dented my mighty hoard of copper.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Barleypaper

[draek]

Personally I think the funniest part is - When your Stronghold is attacked, only the hirelings try to defend it.

All the extra NPC characters you made \ found sit happily in Brighthallow or Barracks while the world burns around them.

[Nanakamado]

I really like stronghold idea (something like in AC series) but here it is a bit... unfinished I think. More things like taxes, quests and interaction with local villagers and it would be graet (Something like in AC III)

[ProjectBG2Respawn]

NWN2 crossroad keep was a lot better.  I'll even say that BG2's de'Arnise Keep is better as well since it feels a bit more immersive.

 

I really hope they can improve the stronghold in later patches, because right now it isn't that interesting.

 

BG2's De Arnise is more immersive ????

 

Whaouuu you really think it is or someone told you that ?

[ProjectBG2Respawn]

A very good thing about stronhold are the bounties

[lyin321]

 I am sure I missed a few things on my first playthrough, but the stronghold disappointed me frankly.  There was just so little to do in it (or with it)...and considering bg2 where there were not only multiple, but had so much to do (compared to this one) is a let down. But I am hoping that the game (like BG2) is easy to mod and will have a big modding community to add...I don't know....''Life to it'' I guess. Where are the quests that comes with owning a piece of land? Maybe depending on our reputation some farmers will come seeking us out...or adventurers for whatever reason. Or maybe a lord will come demanding that this is his/her(?) land. 

 Or once we are lord/lady it opens additional ways for us to complete quests. We may choose to invite this npc to come live in the stronghold. Or close to it...

 Or we might be willing to take a hit to our money/income and find someone that is willing to open an inn on the grounds, hoping that this will bring more patrons/merchants/something.

 And ofcourse all these things (and hopefully more) will each bring drama with them. Oh sweet, sweet drama!

 

 Another thing they could have done (but it's too late now...and frankly that's ok for me since I love BG2/D&D) is for us to be unable to carry more than one suit of armour and maybe few weapons (still would have been able to carry alot of mats depending on our strength/maybe something else), and have to rely on the stronghold for our income (and the quests ofcourse). But that would make it a very prominent part of the game and I am fine with how it currently is....would have been fun experience tho:)

 

Edit: I am fine with us being able to doupgrades/repairs from a distance. Wasn't the reason why explained in the game itself? 

...although it will be funny if we see the 'statue'(forgot name if she have any) complain about shouting so much....

Edited April 1, 2015 by lyin321

[sorrowofwind]

I just hope the stronghold isn't tied to main quest but as an optional side quest so we can get to defiance bridge without acquiring it.  Acquiring keep feels kinda unnecessarily in the main quest. How did the side quest character (peregund?) pass the river anyway?

Edited April 1, 2015 by sorrowofwind

[gkathellar]

I just hope the stronghold isn't tied to main quest but as an optional side quest so we can get to defiance bridge without acquiring it.  Acquiring keep feels kinda unnecessarily in the main quest.

 

You inherit it. You can always ignore it, but you do inherit it.

[lyin321]

 De Arnise is....maybe not the best comparison I guess, since we inherit a....haunted ruin (I am even not sure if it's famous/infamous). But it had things to do in it. Maybe not alot, but rp opportunities non the less. 

I suspect the stronghold in PoE is such a letdown, because it could have been so much more....but on the other hand I guess it needed not to be such an important part of the game for the people that either didn't want to or had/have characters that will just dismiss the land as any other and go on with the main quest. So maybe it was a big risk for the developers to put alot of work in it and they just chose not to...?

Edited April 1, 2015 by lyin321

[Hybridsalmon]

Biggest problem I have with the Stronghold is that it's just a useless moneysink. You can imprison people, but that doesn't do much. You sometimes have visitors who sell you stuff, but mostly I'm unable to buy it since they appear when I start travelling and 12 hours later(travel time) they're already gone. So I get a message that someone appeared and dissapeared. You have your bounties, which is something I guess. You can have merchants, but you can buy their stuff elsewhere. You can sleep for bonusses, but sleeping in an inn can give you better bonusses. You can have an income of ingredients, which is nice.

 

But compared BG2 strongholds it's not that interesting. Sure there is more to do in the stronghold here. But the stronghold/class quests you got in BG2 where interesting(some of them at least). At least give me a peasant who cries for justice or a lord who wants what's 'rightfully' his.(and not the bandits who walk in through the front door unattended).

[grumbold99]

The BG2 stronghold had a lot of variety because it was class based, but essentially it was 2-3 side quests and nothing else. The stronghold in NWN2 was a core part of the story so it lived and breathed a lot more. Here it's not integral to the plot because it wasn't part of the central story, just a stretch goal. I can deal with that. Had resources been more abundant doubtless they would have refined it a bit. 

 

It would have been very nice to have seen more labourers working on the construction (or some form of magic - lets face it, manual labourers don't rebuild a cottage, let alone a substantial part of a castle, in 1-3 days). More general folk and guards appearing as the place becomes functional would have added atmosphere. It would also have been nice to have to go back to the keep to greet visitors, issue instructions etc but there has to be some sort of fast option for this - a teleport mechanism - or you end up feeling unable to travel too far away in case events erupt that you can't get back for. That's bad for the core game pacing. I've already missed the same visitor twice simply because travel times precluded getting back in time. It would be far worse if all parts of the stronghold required the same hands on management. Perhaps the interactions should have been via a magical tablet so you can relay instructions and information back and forth to your steward?

 

I'd have also welcomed some more private chambers in the keep for the player and his friends. It feels odd that the hirelings sleep in the keep barracks but the players are effectively treated as passing guests, resting in the inn. However all this is minor pickiness. I'm far more content having a stronghold to call home and dump my gear in than forever hauling all my stuff around from inn to inn. It's not been perfectly executed but some effort has been made to integrate it. Being able to imprison a couple of NPCs myself rather than deliver them to outside justice or let them go free was a very nice touch.

[gkathellar]

Having given this some thought, here are some ways I think the stronghold could be improved in mods, or in the sequel/expansion:

• Turns should be used to repair and upgrade facilities, rather than the passage of time. The conversion should be fairly easy: 1-2 days of upgrade time can be equal a single turn or so.
  • The turn system rewards progress in the main game with minigame progress. Silly as that may seem to some players, it's an engagement tool that encourages exploration, which is almost implicitly positive as design goes. Unfortunately, I feel that by decoupling the turn system from the main project of the minigame (upgrading the keep), PoE encourages players to just rest repeatedly for upgrade completion as long as they have the funds to do so. Furthermore, linking repairs to turns should help to pace the spending of money relative to its acquisition.
• Taxes/banditry/items from facilities should be based on passage of time, just like guard payments. Maybe once a week, or once every five days.
  • The decision to base these things on turns is no doubt based on the desire to avoid an "infinite money" scenario, but right now we have the potential for an infinite money sink, instead (via hireling costs). I feel the better solution would be to balance the costs better, and reduce the random element so that you initially maintain the keep at cost, and gradually gain the ability to make a profit from it by advancing Security and Prestige.
• As everyone else has said - more people and events in the keep. There should be increasingly visible guests at Brightholllow. More assignments for unused companions, including possibly long-term ones. You know, the usual complaints: MOAR MOAR MOAR GIVE ME MOAR
  • It might also be good to clarify where taxes are coming from - how much is land ownership? Road tolls? Rent from merchants using your facilities? People staying at your inn? (There's a missed opportunity regarding Gilded Vale and its whole lordship situation here, but that's another matter.)

[Yenkins]

BG2's stronghold maybe wasn't the best example but at least it gave you the feel of being a lord.

http://baldursgate.wikia.com/wiki/Ruling_the_de%27Arnise_Keep_and_Lands

 

 

 

Dunno, maybe my expectations were a bit too high but after reading this...

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity/posts/588388

But I really hoped that one of the main features mentioned in kickstarter campaign will be one of the main part of the gameplay.

[GreyFox]

Yea it was just kind of put there to be put there since it was a stretch goal...it's worse than NWN2 which is strange since it's a similar team as the NWN2 team...

 

They really need to juice it up or just don't do it...it needs more people in and around it and better/more options and explanations of things.