Pillars of Eternity 2 and crowdfunding on Kickstarter?

[Luckmann]

 

Kickstarter is not profit.

 

 

 

 

At all.

 

Let's repeat: Kickstarter donations are not profit.

 

Several governments and kickstarter disagree.  Profit is money in - expenses, it doesn't matter where it comes from.

 

 

Since when does legalese have anything to do with reality? Don't be ridiculous.

[Sonntam]

 

Kickstarter is not profit.

 

 

 

 

At all.

 

Let's repeat: Kickstarter donations are not profit.

 

Several governments and kickstarter disagree.  Profit is money in - expenses, it doesn't matter where it comes from.

 

The word "profit" isn't mentioned in Kickstarter. "Income" is what you are talking about. You can have a high income, but high costs and due to that make zero profit.

 

Same goes for Kickstarter. The income that is gained during the fund raising is always off set with costs of development of the product. 

Edited March 9, 2015 by Sonntam

[Abel]

 

I would like to point out that Obsidian has spent a good deal of its own money and resources in developing PoE. I can understand that some people may feel the game is not worth what we are charging, but trust me when I say that this game has a lot of content in it. Lots more than many AAA titles I have worked on.

If you say Obsidian put some money on the table beyond the kickstarter crowdfund then I have to believe that on behalf not having anything to disprove this.

From what I saw however I will be careful in trusting your claims about content and check reviews and opinions after launch.

 

 

Hum, actually you have some tools to understand that BAdler said the truth. In another post, one or two weeks ago, i said that the 4M may have gone for months, or even a year. I'm not some kind of soothsayer. Why? Because the only thing you need to understand this simple fact is basic mathematics.

 

Fargo explained Inxile poured several millions of their own money they earned from another source to finish Wasteland 2, too.

 

I saw many of your posts that i disliked or felt weird. Like when you look upset while a guy say "until now i never wanted anything from Poland" and accusating moderators of partialty, believing he was disrespectful. And in another hand, in another thread, you called someone who disagreed with you, something like "Mein Furher". You point many things as certain while it's your opinion. Some other people who agreed with your point presented things in a good way, an argumented and respectful one (like Sedrefilos or others). I may be like you sometimes too (well, i hate Steam, and it seems i can't stay objective about it even when i try, as an example). But, imo, you just like trolling, because, it's all the time. Sorry, i feel the need to say this at least once since 2 weeks.

[Miquel93]

Also no, your insane, there is almost no overlap at all between GTA and Eternity other than Story Driven (sort of), and Exploration.  That's it.  GTAV isn't even an RPG.  So again, I wouldn't expect tons of lost sales to a game that 1: Isn't an RPG and 2: Already released on every system other than the PC.

 

Actually there is a great overlap between GTA and PoE. No, the games have no similarities whatsoever, but GTA attracts a massive number of players, like, really massive. A lot of PoE potential buyers would be GTA buyers as well. 

 

Massive releases such as GTA can hurt the initial sales of games that theoretically are no direct competition like PoE, just because of the tremendous different types of gamers that they atract, be it people that play mostly shooters, RPGs, strategy games...etc.

[Abel]

 

 

 

I would like to point out that Obsidian has spent a good deal of its own money and resources in developing PoE. I can understand that some people may feel the game is not worth what we are charging, but trust me when I say that this game has a lot of content in it. Lots more than many AAA titles I have worked on.

If you say Obsidian put some money on the table beyond the kickstarter crowdfund then I have to believe that on behalf not having anything to disprove this.

From what I saw however I will be careful in trusting your claims about content and check reviews and opinions after launch.

 

 

Hum, actually you have some tools to understand that BAdler said the truth. In another post, one or two weeks ago, i said that the 4M may have gone for months, or even a year. I'm not some kind of soothsayer. Why? Because the only thing you need to understand this simple fact is basic mathematics.

 

Fargo explained Inxile poured several millions of their own money they earned from another source to finish Wasteland 2, too.

 

I saw many of your posts that i disliked or felt weird. Like when you look upset while a guy say "until now i never wanted anything from Poland" and accusating moderators of partialty, believing he was disrespectful. And in another hand, in another thread, you called someone who disagreed with you, something like "Mein Furher". You point many things as certain while it's your opinion. Some other people who agreed with your point presented things in a good way, an argumented and respectful one (like Sedrefilos or others). I may be like you sometimes too (well, i hate Steam, and it seems i can't stay objective about it even when i try, as an example). But, imo, you just like trolling, because, it's all the time. Sorry, i feel the need to say this at least once since 2 weeks.

 

 

Attacking me personally doesn't prove anything you said to be true. 

 

If there is some basic mathematical prove that Obsidian is not able to follow a budget about 4 times bigger then they needed, then for all means provide it, because I don't see it however obvious it is.

 

Westeland 2 is irrelevant as it's different game by a different studio. 

 

 

Well, i don't want to engage a fight with you (since i think it's useless to battle someone that i feel is closed-minded). But since i think i can't throw anything without any argument, i will just say that what you just pointed may be irrelevant. I don't read all the treads all the times, but i still know some things that you seem to ignore. Some examples: the 4M budget induded many expansive strecth goals, so the budget wasn't 4 times the one needed. The 15 lvl dungeon was a "free" strectch goal, but it, too, is expansive to achieve. Some more details: if you would have been just a bit curious about things before stating non senses (like trying to grab some facts and elements before judging everything without any clue), you would have discovered that there have been more than 60 people who worked on PoE, that a base salary of a dev is nothing near 500E/month, that OE have hired some extra external people from other companies to make many things (like wilderness areas), and that a 4M budget can't last much more than 1 year in that fashion. I don't say i'm right, but at least, i tried to search clues before throwing bul**** like this.

 

To me, Wasteland 2 is a good example, because it's a game with the same kind of scope wich had a 3/4M on KS too, and 2,5 years of developement (like PoE). But once more, maybe, maybe it's me just saying bul****. I'm aware i may do some mistakes, but at least i tried to understand things beforehand.

 

Plus, i'm afraid you're parano. My own opinion is not the universal and sacred truth. I think you're a troll, but after all, it is possible that the true troll is me, and that i was never warned of it.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Abel

[Valmy]

LOL at declaring arbitrary universal standards of pricing which all companies supposedly follow, and pilloring Obsidian for not following them, but declaring all comparable products by every other company irrelevant.

 

Only Obsidian and Obsidian alone must comply with these "universal" standards.  Yeah right.

Edited March 9, 2015 by Valmy

[Bryy]

 Profit is money in - expenses, it doesn't matter where it comes from.

 

Do you even know how money works?

 

Okay. Before we continue, you must read this in a Ron Swanson voice.

 

Profit. It means that the product you put out made money. Kickstarter does not make your product money. Please do not try to argue that "income" is "profit" because it is not. Even if we were not using the business definition of profit, income would still not be profit. 

 

Take the $3,986,929 they got in donations.

Let's factor in Rewards before Fees and Taxes just because they'll take the longest to do. ****, this is gonna take a long time.

Base Game = $44.99, Collector's Book = $22 (approx. printing of singular colored book), T-Shirt = approx. $25, Post Card = approx. $5, Cloth Patch = approx. $5, Mouse Pad = approx. $25, Cloth Map = approx. $50, Loot Bag = approx. $50

 

$65 tier: $248,170 - $76,398.18 = $171,771.82 Actual

$100 tier: $104,100 - $78,064 = $26,036 Actual

$110 tier: $87,120 - $83,160 = $3,960 Actual

$140 tier: $489,440 - $454,445 = $34,995 Actual

$250 tier: $436,500 - $309,024 = $127,476 Actual

$350 tier: $10,500 - $7,409 = $3,091 Actual

$500 tier: $183,500 - $64,955 = $118,545 Actual

$750 tier: $21,750 - $5,132 = $16,618 Actual

$1000 tier A: $114,000 - $20,177 = $93,823 Actual

$1000 tier B: $49,00 - $8,672 = $40,328 Actual

$3000 tier: $21,000 - $1,260 = $19,740 Actual

$5000 tier A: $25,00 - $885 = $24,115 Actual

$5000 tier B: $15,000 - $531 = $14,469 Actual

$10000 tier: $50,000 - $884 = $49,116 Actual

 

Rewards = $1,034,599 (actual number is not pertinent to this exercise)

We're down to $2,952,330.

Kickstarter & Amazon Fees = $39,862.90.

We're down to $2,912,468.

California Tax = let's approximate at minimum $400,00 since they did not spend all of the total income in the same year.

We're down to $2,512,468.

I forget the number of people working on Pillars, but let's say 25 x $75,000 (this was the median in 2012) = $1,875,000.

 

This leaves a little under $700k to make the actual game itself.

 

Obviously, my end numbers are screwed up, as it would be insane for the final number to drop a few million (although, there are those horror stories of going into the negatives by at least the double digits), but please tell me, in what world is any of this profit?

Edited March 10, 2015 by Bryy

[anameforobsidian]

Obviously, my end numbers are screwed up, as it would be insane for the final number to drop a few million (although, there are those horror stories of going into the negatives by at least the double digits), but please tell me, in what world is any of this profit?

 

 

Because it counts as part of total income for the project, and total profit is total income - total expenses.  Here's a really simple equation.  kickstarter sales* = k, release sales = r, development costs = d, and profit = p

(k+r) - d = p.

 

*Yes they are sales since they have the promise of rewards, they're just very long risk adjusted preorders.  If they were donations, they would not carry the promise of reward.  And if you're so convinced that they are selfless donations, then you should probably refuse any of the rewards from the campaign to save Obsidian money in fulfillment costs.

Edited March 10, 2015 by anameforobsidian

[Kal Adan]

If all Kickstarter funds went into the project, then there is no profit from Kickstarter. It's as simple as that.

[Abel]

If all Kickstarter funds went into the project, then there is no profit from Kickstarter. It's as simple as that.

 

+1

[morhilane]

 

I forget the number of people working on Pillars, but let's say 25 x $75,000 (this was the median in 2012) = $1,875,000.

 

A pet peeve of mine, this should include benefices, licenses fee and office cost (renting/electricity/hardware/etc) which is usually estimated via the rule of tomb salary*2.

[anameforobsidian]

If all Kickstarter funds went into the project, then there is no profit from Kickstarter. It's as simple as that.

 

Development costs were (mostly) paid for.  This means they can sell the game for (almost) pure profit.  I don't see how simple addition and substitution is so hard to understand.

 

Profit  = Total Money In - Total Money Out.

Total Money In = Kickstarter + Other Prerelease Sales + Release Sales.

Therefore:  Profit = (Kickstarter + Other Sales) - Total Money Out.

 

 

Let's say they spent all their kickstarter money on game development (which they did), and then they made $6m in released sales.

 

Profit = ($4m +$6m) - $4m

Profit = $6m

 

Then, lets imagine a world without kickstarter, where Obsidian fronts its own cash and makes it up in release sales.  They still make $6m in release sales.

 

Profit = $6m - $4m

Profit = $2m

 

What?  Profit changed?  It's almost like money from Kickstarter is just a different source of income that still affects profits.  Yes, it's spent making the game, but that just means that the creator doesn't incur a loss in the creation of the game.  Come on, this is simple addition.

[Elerond]

 

If all Kickstarter funds went into the project, then there is no profit from Kickstarter. It's as simple as that.

 

Development costs were (mostly) paid for.  This means they can sell the game for (almost) pure profit.  I don't see how simple addition and substitution is so hard to understand.

 

Profit  = Total Money In - Total Money Out.

Total Money In = Kickstarter + Other Prerelease Sales + Release Sales.

Therefore:  Profit = (Kickstarter + Other Sales) - Total Money Out.

 

 

Let's say they spent all their kickstarter money on game development (which they did), and then they made $6m in released sales.

 

Profit = ($4m +$6m) - $4m

Profit = $6m

 

Then, lets imagine a world without kickstarter, where Obsidian fronts its own cash and makes it up in release sales.  They still make $6m in release sales.

 

Profit = $6m - $4m

Profit = $2m

 

What?  Profit changed?  It's almost like money from Kickstarter is just a different source of income that still affects profits.  Yes, it's spent making the game, but that just means that the creator doesn't incur a loss in the creation of the game.  Come on, this is simple addition.

 

 

You should take account that in your second scenario total sales of game are lower than in first scenario as you don't take account that those Kickstarter backers also get copy of the game. And also in second scenario development of game cost more than in first scenario as you don't take account money cut that Kickstarter and payment provider took and that some of that Kickstarter money goes towards backer rewards like t-shirts, novellas, guides, cloth maps, mouse pads, play cards, etc.

[anameforobsidian]

You should take account that in your second scenario total sales of game are lower than in first scenario as you don't take account that those Kickstarter backers also get copy of the game. And also in second scenario development of game cost more than in first scenario as you don't take account money cut that Kickstarter and payment provider took and that some of that Kickstarter money goes towards backer rewards like t-shirts, novellas, guides, cloth maps, mouse pads, play cards, etc.

 

 

Sales are lower in the second one, it was simplified to show that at the end of a project, money from kickstarter has an equal numeric effect as money from release day sales.  

 

Also, its not uncommon for major games to sell swag, and the cut kickstarter takes is lower than the cut most of the major distributors take.

Edited March 11, 2015 by anameforobsidian

[Kal Adan]

I am not saying you're wrong in what you're saying. I simply try to point out how Kickstarter is not supposed to be for profit.

 

If money from Kickstarter go into development, then this is the money that didn't went directly into profit, which is what Kickstarter is all about. You can make a niche game that won't get you a profit and with Kickstarter you still can make it, because money from there is supposed to go into development (thus you don't profit from it), to provide game for the backers.

 

Eventual profit from the game (or the overall profit, as you point out) is entirely another matter. Game might sell well or not. From the point of Kickstarter it doesn't really matter, because Kickstarter is only concerned about reaching the stated goals and not about developers making profit from their creation.

[Elerond]

 

You should take account that in your second scenario total sales of game are lower than in first scenario as you don't take account that those Kickstarter backers also get copy of the game. And also in second scenario development of game cost more than in first scenario as you don't take account money cut that Kickstarter and payment provider took and that some of that Kickstarter money goes towards backer rewards like t-shirts, novellas, guides, cloth maps, mouse pads, play cards, etc.

 

Sales are lower in the second one, it was simplified to show that at the end of a project, money from kickstarter has an equal numeric effect as money from release day sales.  

 

Also, its not uncommon for major games to sell swag, and the cut kickstarter takes is lower than the cut most of the major distributors take.

 

Of course game is more profitable if it making costs are lower and revenue is 4 million dollars higher.

Which was my point your scenarios aren't equal so comparing them don't actually tell us anything.

 

My point with swag and kickstarter cut was that even when project gets 4 million dollars from kickstarter it's actual budget is lower, meaning that you should not compare ks revenue to actual game budget as they aren't same.

[Bryy]

How money works isn't really up for debate.

[Niggey]

The debate is about the price of the game. In my opinion it doesnt matter where the development money comes from. If from a publisher or from a funding project, the money flows either way into the development of the game. Isnt the difference that instead of the publisher getting most of the money from the sales and giving a new project to the developer, obsidian gets now the big chunk to fund their own next project?

 

So the only question which remains is, if this game is worth the price. And tbh, it BG2 was a game with an equal price X years ago, the price is fine. I mean, obsidian wont buy a jet and fly to the hawaii with the money earned but will fund the next project (i hope at least).

 

Why was the game cheaper for the backers? Well i see it as a reward for taking the risk. No one could have known how the project will turn out in the end and i could have just said "I let the other gamers take the risk and wait how the game looks in the end", well, thats okay but you then pay the full price.

The lowest backer tier for getting the game is NOT the price of the actual game. Its a probably 60+ hour rpg so the price should be set accordingly. And the price is fine.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Niggey

[lightblade75]

If time is too long until the game is ready (it does not matter if its PoE or a sequel) why not start reading this novel I found today:

 

http://www.amazon.de/Pillars-Eternity-Barrington-J-Bayley/dp/0330308351/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1426064185&sr=8-6&keywords=pillars+of+eternity

 

(just kidding).   )

Edited March 11, 2015 by lightblade75

[deserk]

Personally I hope they wait a long time before making PoE2. I'd rather get some expansions than a sequel so soon.

[zmally]

How money works isn't really up for debate.

 

In Soviet Russia, money works for you!

[TheisEjsing]

Haven't read everything in this thread, but seems like it's getting off topic somewhat. My opinion is that OE should use kickstarter, if they can avoid to take money from venture capitalists etc., which reduces production control and creative freedom from OE. Paradox seems cool, but I'd prefer if the cooperation between them remains like it is. 

If they want to make a game that's too expensive for kickstarter to solo fund it (along with their own and other money without ties), they shouldn't use kickstarter. 

[bc1280]

I thought there will be at least 1 expansion pack for PoE. Too early to consider PoE2 at this moment.

[PrimeJunta]

 

How money works isn't really up for debate.

 

In Soviet Russia, money works for you!

 

No that would be in Capitalist America. Expropriate the expropriators! ☭

Edited March 12, 2015 by PrimeJunta

[Karkarov]

 

In Soviet Russia, money works for you!

No that would be in Capitalist America. Expropriate the expropriators! ☭

Actually I think the proper fix for Junta favorite russian hell would be "In Soviet Russia Money works you!"