bad design decisions

[archangel979]

 

11. Turning off UI helpers, you have no idea what your characters are doing. The current action icon that is normally over the head of character also needs to be somewhere else on UI (like next to their portrait).

Moving the combat idle animation to recovery time would fix this.

 

Maybe to you. I prefer to see what my characters are doing in a more clear way. BGEE editions have that on character portraits. PoE could have it by putting that action circle also on or next to character portraits.

[Luckmann]

 

Lack of ammo is the biggest let down for me... I can't imagine any Infinite engine game without ammo and all kinds of stuff to throw (daggers) etc. 

 

Also, when I found out that there are magical wands with infinite ammo I was like WHAT ? Like in Mmorpg ?  Goddammit. 

It was so cool in IE games, that mages had to choose between staffs and something like slingshot. And now it will be only PEWPEWPEW, forever.

Well mages having unlimited simple spells through implements (wands, rods and staffs) is from D&D 4e (which is Sawyer's fav D&D). It is not about wands having infinite ammo but mages wielding them having it.

 

In 5e they scaled it back a bit and just given wizards infinite cantrips (0 level spells) that are simple attack spells which they can use without anything but their magical power.

 

 

Oh god, that explains so much, and that is absolutely horrifying. D&D 4e is the red-headed stephchild of PnP, the abortion that should never have lived, afterbirth that gestated and was born as a mutant into a world that it hated, and that hated it in turn.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Luckmann

[PrimeJunta]

I have an almost-unused set of DnD4 books in my shelf. I read them through. I remember thinking they were godawful for a PnP game but might work pretty well on a computer.

[Sensuki]

Maybe to you. I prefer to see what my characters are doing in a more clear way. BGEE editions have that on character portraits. PoE could have it by putting that action circle also on or next to character portraits.

I'm okay with a recovery bar and action icon UNDER the portrait, but not on it.

 

And yeah D&D 4E isn't that great for P&P. I've DM'd and played it, and I found combat really boring.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Sensuki

[Cluas]

I find it annoying, that I can't drop any loot i don't want. The inventory/stash also need a sorting function. 

 

The volume sliders, most people want to have more options. But it won't be in the release, perhaps the expansion?

 

I can't run from combat? Don't know, never tried ...

 

I'm very disappointed with the lack of ammunition. This was a "big part" of the mood in IE games...

 

The problem with the combat log and other stuff is taken care of by Bester. He made a mod, that can correct all this

[prodigydancer]

everyone unstealths automatically at the start of combat

Ugh. I didn't know things were that bad. PoE is seriously starting to look like a lost cause. Edited January 19, 2015 by prodigydancer

[Gladiuss8@gmail.com]

It started to look like that since the beta came out. There are just too many bad design choices for a real IE games succesor.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Gladiuss8@gmail.com

[archangel979]

I find it annoying, that I can't drop any loot i don't want. The inventory/stash also need a sorting function. 

 

The volume sliders, most people want to have more options. But it won't be in the release, perhaps the expansion?

 

I can't run from combat? Don't know, never tried ...

 

I'm very disappointed with the lack of ammunition. This was a "big part" of the mood in IE games...

 

The problem with the combat log and other stuff is taken care of by Bester. He made a mod, that can correct all this

Expecting modders to fix basic problems of games is wrong attitude. Modders should be adding options and content, not stuff that is expected and basic in other games.

Bester is awesome but he should not be expected to fix stuff OE failed to do.

Edited January 19, 2015 by archangel979

[Marky]

 

Lack of ammo is the biggest let down for me... I can't imagine any Infinite engine game without ammo and all kinds of stuff to throw (daggers) etc. 

 

Also, when I found out that there are magical wands with infinite ammo I was like WHAT ? Like in Mmorpg ?  Goddammit. 

It was so cool in IE games, that mages had to choose between staffs and something like slingshot. And now it will be only PEWPEWPEW, forever.

Well mages having unlimited simple spells through implements (wands, rods and staffs) is from D&D 4e (which is Sawyer's fav D&D). It is not about wands having infinite ammo but mages wielding them having it.

 

In 5e they scaled it back a bit and just given wizards infinite cantrips (0 level spells) that are simple attack spells which they can use without anything but their magical power.

 

Do you have a source for that? All I remember was Sawyer criticizing 4th edition D&D.

[archangel979]

I think it was from some video where he talked about D&D, cba to find it now. If I got it wrong, I apologize to Sawyer in advance.

[Quetzalcoatl]

8. Elder name given to animals to present them as stronger when older animals are only weaker. Elder is name give to MAGICAL creatures that become stronger with age like Vampires or Dragons. Lion when old become weak and lose pack leader status (if they even had it, most just become old).

Wouldn't an elder lion be stronger? If they lived so long it means they were strong enough to survive fights with rival pack leaders.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Quetzalcoatl

[archangel979]

 

8. Elder name given to animals to present them as stronger when older animals are only weaker. Elder is name give to MAGICAL creatures that become stronger with age like Vampires or Dragons. Lion when old become weak and lose pack leader status (if they even had it, most just become old).

Wouldn't an elder lion be stronger? If they lived so long it means they were strong enough to survive fights with rival pack leaders.

 

NO, it means they are old and weak now. Just like humans, lions also become weaker with old age.

 

Any by your logic, why do you then run into multiple Elders at one location?

Edited January 19, 2015 by archangel979

[Quetzalcoatl]

 

 

8. Elder name given to animals to present them as stronger when older animals are only weaker. Elder is name give to MAGICAL creatures that become stronger with age like Vampires or Dragons. Lion when old become weak and lose pack leader status (if they even had it, most just become old).

Wouldn't an elder lion be stronger? If they lived so long it means they were strong enough to survive fights with rival pack leaders.

 

NO, it means they are old and weak now. Just like humans, lions also become weaker with old age.

Humans don't constantly fight each other to the death. Lions do, so when one lives to achieve a reasonable age, it's an indication of how strong they are to have survived the constant struggle for leadership.

 

 

 

Any by your logic, why do you then run into multiple Elders at one location?

Multiple packs of lions.

[Gorbag]

Modders should be adding options and content, not stuff that is expected and basic in other games.

Bester is awesome but he should not be expected to fix stuff OE failed to do.

But that's exactly what the mod does. It adds the option to move anything anywhere for those who are not satisfied with the current design. Fixing a problem in PoE would suggest that there is a problem to fix. Currently there is a design choice which some like, some don't care about and some dislike. The mod is there to satisfy the last group of people. I'm not opposed to making the UI customizable, as long as it does not turn into the UI of NWN2 and retains the IE feel. Also I'm not sure how the customizable elements would fit with the solid background (which I plan to use). 

 

EDIT: That's based on what I've seen of it. I haven't tried the mod personally, as I said, I'm not a BB player.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Gorbag

[PrimeJunta]

@Gorbag See, according to Archangel, "anything Archangel doesn't like" constitutes an objective flaw and it is therefore incumbent on Obsidian to fix it. The notion of different people having different preferences appears not to figure in his conceptual apparatus.

[Gorbag]

@Prime Junta: Well it's easy to forget other points of view when your mind is set on something. Just as I forgot to think about how the inability to flee from combat affects those who play Trial of Iron/Ironman regularly. That's what discussions are for, not only ganging up against stuff.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Gorbag

[Nonek]

Ctn2003:

1. No ambient or movie sound sliders.

2. Unable to drop items upon the ground.

Archangel979:

3. Fleeing combat impossible.

4. Infinite stash available everywhere, and yet the character models do not have a backpack or even a bag in which to hold anything.

5. Unable to change weapons during combat.

6. Lack of ammunition, and thus unique and enchanted examples.

7. Position of combat log may be disliked.

8. Camera angle may be disliked.

9. No walking animation, only able to run.

10. Elder name does not necessarily denote potency.

Luckmann:

11. Combat only abilities, preventing potent ambushing and initiation of combat.

12. No individual stealth options, stealth automatically dismissed at the initiation of combat.

Archangel979:

13. Turning off UI helpers, you have no idea what your characters are doing.

 

Edit: Thought it might be helpful to gather up the major points in a full list, perhaps someone could do so on every second page or so when new points are added?

Edited January 19, 2015 by Nonek

[Nonek]

Points 1 and 2 seem to be things that simply should be included.

3 Seems worrisome, this should be a legitimate tactic.

4 I've disliked this from the beginning, and said so repeatedly.

5 Seems counter intuitive to the games design principle, were we not supposed to change weapons during combat to take advantage of different weaknesses?

6 A small thing but a pity not to take advantage of it.

7 and 8 Seem purely down to personal preference.

9 Walking definitely should be included in the game in my opinion.

10 Personal preference again, language is malleable.

11 Very concerned about this, how do Wizards research spells and work in their laboratories, are they constantly attacked during research?

12 Seems to devalue scouts and a legitimate gameplay option.

13 I'm afraid I have no experience of this in effect.

 

Edit: Obviously there is a limit to how much can be achieved for such a small budget, perhaps the developers might think of implementing a few of these changes in patches or the expansion, after sales have begun?

Edited January 19, 2015 by Nonek

[PrimeJunta]

Actually there is an 'objective' aspect to 8 at least: the lower camera angle makes it harder to see what's going on in combat if there's a cluster of toons swinging at each other. 

 

As to 12, I also think individual stealth would be nice, but in practice it's not nearly as bad as some people here make it out to be. The only thing you can't do is position a rogue in the back, charge the lines at the front, and backstab at a suitable moment. You can still position your rogues with stealth and open with a backstab, you can scout ahead with your stealthier party members, and the rest of it.

 

Also rogues can take the Shadowing Beyond ability which gives them temporary invisibility. It's 1/encounter only regrettably but it does make a lot of stealth tactics feasible again.

 

13 is entirely true, which is why I never switch them off. With no alternative way to get at the info, I really don't see why they made them optional to start with. They're quite crucial.

[Gfted1]

Huh, I hadn't heard about the "cant drop stuff". Whats up with that? So you can only empty your bags by selling stuff? At the end of the day I guess its meaningless since we have unlimited carry capacity but still a bit kooky, imo.

 

My vote for bad design decision; no Healing capabilities.

[wanderon]

Haha, I think you'd  have to have a serious masochistic streak to go with Trial of Iron on a first playthrough. I think it's fairly crucial even for later playthroughs. Even really good players sometimes screw up, and if every fight is to the death it makes things seriously more difficult.

 

ahhh but the adrenaline rush each battle then provides when it's win or start over is to die for (ooops game over   )...

 

Dying and then starting over however need not be considered a bad thing since for me at least it feeds yet another addiction - restartitius!!!! 

 

so it's win/win or lose/win - hey I think we have a winner! 

 

(All that said I probably won't start right off with Trial of Iron - maybe I'll roll to see... )

[Osvir]

Ctn2003:

1. No ambient or movie sound sliders.

2. Unable to drop items upon the ground.

Archangel979:

3. Fleeing combat impossible.

4. Infinite stash available everywhere, and yet the character models do not have a backpack or even a bag in which to hold anything.

5. Unable to change weapons during combat.

6. Lack of ammunition, and thus unique and enchanted examples.

7. Position of combat log may be disliked.

8. Camera angle may be disliked.

9. No walking animation, only able to run.

10. Elder name does not necessarily denote potency.

Luckmann:

11. Combat only abilities, preventing potent ambushing and initiation of combat.

12. No individual stealth options, stealth automatically dismissed at the initiation of combat.

Archangel979:

13. Turning off UI helpers, you have no idea what your characters are doing.

 

Edit: Thought it might be helpful to gather up the major points in a full list, perhaps someone could do so on every second page or so when new points are added?

1. *shrug* but would've been nice.

2. *shrug* I don't understand why...? Though hm... omg! O.O the Quest possibilities! "You have received a note: 'Drop the object you found at location X, or you will face the consequences". Expansive? Or, maybe not, because a quest like this could be made by "Drop in Container".

3. Not impossible. Different than "mouse-click" away (like in the IE games). PoE uses more of a "Act then Flee" (Act being "Stun", "Knockdown", "Hobbled" or causing effects to the target. Kind of Pokemon/Pokeball styled gameplay, you can't catch a Pokemon with full health with a standard/typical Pokeball. Status Effect or Low Health -> Then Catch. In PoE: Status Effect or Ability -> Then Flee)

4. I'll say it again, a limited Stash option would be interesting. Or outright an option for "Turn Off Stash Entirely".

 

5. Isn't this a bug or... Obsidian wasn't able to fix it? (Why would we even have Weapon Sets if we can't switch in combat? Though, I understand if they choose not to fix it because... changing weapons in Combat could or should cause an attack of opportunity or better rolls for the enemy. It might cause more problems. A simple solution is to simply "Not allow" changing of weapons in combat)

6. Could a Ranged weapon have "Bullet" enchantments (crafting, essentially) or have a Secondary Ammonution Item that you can equip in the "Off-Hand" slot? (In essence: If you have a Bow, both hands are occupied, but you could find unique arrows or arrow enchantments that can only be equipped in the Off-Hand slot if a Bow is equipped. For a one-handed Gun you'd sacrifice Dual-Wielding Gun Slinging for the Off-Hand ammo type)

7. The Draggable UI Mod seems awesome, and it does everything anyone who wants the Combat log elsewhere. I don't see a problem. Though, I think it'd be better for Pillars of Eternity if Obsidian and Bester worked together with this, and integrated the "Draggable UI" into the Vanilla game (or through an Official Patch).

8. ???

 

9. Scout Mode = Dungeon Crawling/Readied Stance/Dungeon Walking. Though, I would've kind of wanted to have an Out of Combat Explorative walking animation rather than the running one but oh well. It is fun to explore and move around in Pillars of Eternity, walking or no walking. I still think it is a bit of a bummer.

10. *shrug*

11. Isn't this all about scouting, preparing and positioning? I can position my dudes in a way further away, and then my, say, Rogue can sneak up to enemies, run away as they see him/her, and then I have my party waiting around a corner.

12. Because "Scout Mode" isn't necessarily "Stealth Mode". Another name for this Mode could give more clarity. Or rather, I view "Scout Mode" in several ways... one way is that you can activate it, and walk with one character and it'll be (in essence) what the IE stealth mode is. Or, you can "scout" with the entire party in the mode (as seen from Obsidian's stream, Josh is dungeon crawling with the Mode a lot with the entire party).

13. "Turning Off All UI Helpers" is something you do after you've learned the system more and understand it better.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Osvir

[PrimeJunta]

@Osvir 3. is actually impossible. There is no way to exit the map if you are "in combat." Stun, knockdown, hobble etc. do not end the combat state even if you manage to break engagement.

 

4. A limited stash would be worse. It means that for a long time you're happily playing with no inventory Tetris, then boom, you're faced with a marathon of it at once. Cf. Fallout 2's car trunk.

 

5. You can change weapons in combat, but only between your two (or three) weapon sets.

 

6. I don't think there are one-handed guns anymore. Sadly pirate pistols are a thing of the past. And yes, special ammo would need a UI feature to use it.

 

13. There aren't any AI UI helpers to speak of (and a good thing too). Characters just use their basic attack if not instructed to do otherwise.

[Osvir]

@Osvir 3. is actually impossible. There is no way to exit the map if you are "in combat." Stun, knockdown, hobble etc. do not end the combat state even if you manage to break engagement.

 

4. A limited stash would be worse. It means that for a long time you're happily playing with no inventory Tetris, then boom, you're faced with a marathon of it at once. Cf. Fallout 2's car trunk.

 

5. You can change weapons in combat, but only between your two (or three) weapon sets.

 

6. I don't think there are one-handed guns anymore. Sadly pirate pistols are a thing of the past. And yes, special ammo would need a UI feature to use it.

 

13. There aren't any AI UI helpers to speak of (and a good thing too). Characters just use their basic attack if not instructed to do otherwise.

3. Oh, you're talking about it in that way. That would be pretty cool... knockback the enemy or something, run away, hide, have them look for you. What I meant is that it's not impossible to kick some ass and then retreat back or run back a bit.

4. I'm advocating a limited stash option or no stash option, not forced limited stash. "No Stash" could be a simple thing to implement a la "Stash = True" or "Stash = False" (Stash = 1, Stash = 0). Could even be possible to mod the Stash out of the game entirely without bugs, but it depends on how the code is written and how much the Stash depends on other variables or vice versa.

5. As I thought. Why is this one even "can't change weapons"??? o.O

6. Eh, what? Why are the one-handed guns gone? T-T also, it wouldn't need a UI feature if done like I conceptualize. You'd simply drag and drop the "Ammo" item in the "Off-Hand" slot. You wouldn't need a designated "Ammo Slot" (Like in the IE games) if the Ammo is limitless anyways~

Edited January 19, 2015 by Osvir

[archangel979]

 

@Osvir 3. is actually impossible. There is no way to exit the map if you are "in combat." Stun, knockdown, hobble etc. do not end the combat state even if you manage to break engagement.

 

4. A limited stash would be worse. It means that for a long time you're happily playing with no inventory Tetris, then boom, you're faced with a marathon of it at once. Cf. Fallout 2's car trunk.

 

5. You can change weapons in combat, but only between your two (or three) weapon sets.

 

6. I don't think there are one-handed guns anymore. Sadly pirate pistols are a thing of the past. And yes, special ammo would need a UI feature to use it.

 

13. There aren't any AI UI helpers to speak of (and a good thing too). Characters just use their basic attack if not instructed to do otherwise.

3. Oh, you're talking about it in that way. That would be pretty cool... knockback the enemy or something, run away, hide, have them look for you. What I meant is that it's not impossible to kick some ass and then retreat back or run back a bit.

4. I'm advocating a limited stash option or no stash option, not forced limited stash. "No Stash" could be a simple thing to implement a la "Stash = True" or "Stash = False" (Stash = 1, Stash = 0). Could even be possible to mod the Stash out of the game entirely without bugs, but it depends on how the code is written and how much the Stash depends on other variables or vice versa.

5. As I thought. Why is this one even "can't change weapons"??? o.O

6. Eh, what? Why are the one-handed guns gone? T-T also, it wouldn't need a UI feature if done like I conceptualize. You'd simply drag and drop the "Ammo" item in the "Off-Hand" slot. You wouldn't need a designated "Ammo Slot" (Like in the IE games) if the Ammo is limitless anyways~

 

Nonek listed design "problems" in shorter form that are now confusing. Like I mention that escaping combat is not about engagement and I do say swapping weapon from inventory, I don't mention quickslots. Edited January 19, 2015 by archangel979