Eurogamer on Combat XP, Turn-Based Battles

[PrimeHydra]

Typed Pillars of Eternity into Google News for the heck of it and found this great preview. These guys liked the beta, and they voice a lot of the same concerns we have.

 

On the lack of combat XP (argue about it here, not in this thread):

At the moment, the game offers no XP for victory in combat, only for completion of quests. It's an understandable decision when viewed in the context of the games Pillars of Eternity is trying not to be - "Go back to Skyrim" is a popular retort from those who see combat XP as an open door to grinding - but in a game that is clearly going to be very combat-centric, it does feel bizarrely punitive. The loot dropped by defeated enemies isn't exciting enough to compensate right now, and the thrill of victory in a tricky battle is undeniably dimmed when you realise you gained nothing of value from the encounter.

 

This debate already has a thread so I'm not going to touch the quote, just wanted to share their view.

 

On pause-and-play vs. turn-based battles:

To help you make sense of the muddle, there are numerous auto-pause options, which will freeze the game whenever specific combat situations occur, and you can also slow things down with a prod of the S key. This at least helps you get your bearings, but doesn't address the jumble of overlapping characters you're expected to navigate in the thick of the action. It feels like a peculiar concession, as if the game is naturally leaning towards turn-based combat, but is afraid to commit fully for fear of annoying purist backers who cry foul at anything that doesn't fit their notion of what genre can offer.

 

This point deserves some serious debate--arguably more so than the XP thread. Granted, selection circles no longer overlap, but that hardly dilutes the argument.

 

For my part, I agree that turn-based combat would solve the issue. I'd be fine with a well-implemented system, so don't count me among the "purist" backers; fun trumps purity any day.

 

However, realtime-with-pause can work. The missing ingredient is AI scripts. Imagine playing an IE game without any basic scripts whatsoever, and clearing out a mob of baddies. Suddenly the micromanagement involved becomes more akin to the PoE beta. Realtime-witth-pause worked in the IE games because you could delegate no-brainer behavior, such as having your ranged character keep their distance or having a barbarian auto-engage their nearest enemy. Going up against a bunch of goblins requried a lot fewer clicks than tactically taking down a dragon. That's how it should be.

 

Without any sort of scripting, I think I'll be spending more time in pause mode than out of it, and will miss the balanced flow of IE-era battles.

Edited September 9, 2014 by PrimeHydra

[Monte Carlo]

I'm glad third parties are picking up on the same issues we are.

 

Although I think people who think turn-based can make it in now are even bigger head-bangers than those of us loyal to the flame of combat XP.

[archangel979]

I always turn off AI in IE games and micromanage everything. No script is going to be good enough.

I am also for turn based combat but it is too late now.

Edited September 9, 2014 by archangel979

[PrimeHydra]

I'm glad third parties are picking up on the same issues we are.

 

Although I think people who think turn-based can make it in now are even bigger head-bangers than those of us loyal to the flame of combat XP.

Well, David Brevik did turn Diablo from turn-based to real-time at the last minute. Maybe OE can do the opposite

Edited September 9, 2014 by PrimeHydra

[Gfted1]

Didn't D:OS go turn based at the 11th hour? I certainly hope combat becomes less muddled but if not, I personally would not mind a switch to TB.

[PrimeHydra]

I always turn off AI in IE games and micromanage everything. No script is going to be good enough.

I am also for turn based combat but it is too late now.

I tended to use the very basic scripts, preferred to do all activated abilities and spells myself. But I didn't mind letting Keldorn and Minsc hack up level 3 goblins without my intervention.

[Uomoz]

I'd never, ever, have backed PoE if it was turn based.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Uomoz

[IndiraLightfoot]

Regardless of whether OE has started their QA machinery, even including the Paradox one, for other stuff than sounds and localization, I'm starting to see a pattern. Josh comes in and discuss a few tidbits here and there, but all the hot topics are left uncommented. I have seen BMac and a few others glean these backer beta discussion threads on top of the bug reports over the last days. Here's a wild guess:

-There are pretty hectic discussions over at OE about the criticisms pouring in over the combat systems and a few other key mechanics.

-OE are beginning to realize this will have to be postponed for a few months to actually be properly fixed to their high standards. Josh comes across as something of a perfectionist. Look at his mod for F:NV. Why would he change all of the sudden?

-They are preparing an update for us, detailing info about a few of the issues.

 

"Or was all of this but a dream?" *Think of Bobby Ewing stepping out of the shower alive after dozens of Dallas-episodes.*

Edited September 9, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Uomoz]

I think that they'd have added proper combat feedback even if there wasn't a forum full of rabid IE-fanbois lamenting about obviously broken things. They are perfectly aware of this stuff, it's known and written in the starting "rules" of the beta, something a few people should read again. The next BB patches (with actual improvements, not bug-fixes) will quiet a lot of this messy, loud, childish board.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Uomoz

[wanderon]

Regardless of whether OE has started their QA machinery, even including the Paradox one, for other stuff than sounds and localization, I'm starting to see a pattern. Josh comes in and discuss a few tidbits here and there, but all the hot topics are left uncommented. I have seen BMac and a few others glean these backer beta discussion threads on top of the bug reports over the last days. Here's a wild guess:

-There are pretty hectic discussions over at OE about the criticisms pouring in over the combat systems and a few other key mechanics.

-OE are beginning to realize this will have to be postponed for a few months to actually be properly fixed to their high standards. Josh comes across as something of a perfectionist. Look at his mod for F:NV. Why would he change all of the sudden?

-They are preparing an update for us, detailing info about a few of the issues.

 

"Or was all of this but a dream?" *Think of Bobby Ewing stepping out of the shower alive after dozens of Dallas-episodes.*

 

 

I suspect that OE is paying less attention to the clamoring from the forums/social media than you surmise. For my money they have been laying on a heavy workload from the moment they began to show off the game this summer and that work is not stopping to debate between themselves over what direction they are heading - I suspect that orders are coming down assignments being given and the entire team is focusing on getting the game finished and what will be will be. Just my opinion of course. 

[IndiraLightfoot]

Wanderon: I certainly hope so, but I can tell there's a definitive shift in dev interaction, and since they've been busy all along, I reckon some of that has to do with dealing with the avalanche of feedback from Gamescom testers, QA, game journalists and their own backer beta forums, but I could be wrong. WL2, D:OS, heck almost every game with a responsible dev team at the helm, will react to such feedback, assess the possible reactions on their customers, and adapt accordingly. InXile and Larian did so swimmingly, I except no less from OE.

[Gfted1]

TB! TB! TB!

[IndiraLightfoot]

Gfted1: I was drooling today when I saw the combat trailer for WL2, so I can easily see where you get your enthusiasm from.

[Tartantyco]

Talk about "sky-is-falling" level comments in this thread. It's hilarious watching people think that Obsidian is somehow going into panic mode based on absolutely nothing. This is completely absurd.

 

RTwP seems a little hectic in a few instances due to a lack of feedback, a couple of bugs, encounters that have been slapped together for the Beta alone, and imbalances. Other than that, it's pretty much the same as the IE games. AI scripts have nothing to do with it.

 

It seems silly to have to remind people of this again, but it's a Beta in the bug fixing and balancing stage of development.

[Ink Blot]

I like both TB and RTwP (although I tend to prefer the latter). I think PoE could work extremely well as a TB game though. That being said, I'd always vote RTwP first.

 

Didn't D:OS go turn based at the 11th hour? I certainly hope combat becomes less muddled but if not, I personally would not mind a switch to TB.

No, it was planned as a TB game right from the beginning.

[Namutree]

Uomoz you're an obnoxious ****.

How sweet. That'll show there aren't any childish posters.

[Matt516]

Though I have no particular preference for TB or RTwP, one of the few non-negotiable things OE promised in the KS was that PE would be RTwP. So I don't see a shift happening, or much point in clamoring for it. IMO we should be focusing on how to make RTwP work as well as it can instead.

[Matt516]

Also this: "If you want an Orlan with the build of a towering Aumaua, or a human-sized dwarf, you can."

 

.....

 

Wat.

[Uomoz]

 

Uomoz you're an obnoxious ****.

How sweet. That'll show there aren't any childish posters.

 

 

Ahahahah, I wonder why I didn't see that post! Filter ftw!

[Seari]

LOL

 

edit: That was directed at the eurogamer preview. If pointing out an obnoxious ****, is childish, then I guess I am childish.

edit2: oops, whatever

Edited September 9, 2014 by Seari

[GreyFox]

Once again...most people are going to notice and cringe a bit at the lack of combat Xp....not hard to foresee.

[PrimeHydra]

Talk about "sky-is-falling" level comments in this thread. It's hilarious watching people think that Obsidian is somehow going into panic mode based on absolutely nothing. This is completely absurd.

 

RTwP seems a little hectic in a few instances due to a lack of feedback, a couple of bugs, encounters that have been slapped together for the Beta alone, and imbalances. Other than that, it's pretty much the same as the IE games. AI scripts have nothing to do with it.

 

It seems silly to have to remind people of this again, but it's a Beta in the bug fixing and balancing stage of development.

 

I never meant to imply that this is an OMFG issue, but it's a relevant one worthy of discussion: How can real-time-with-pause be made to work better? Maybe you've had a different experience with the backer beta than I have, but I really miss having a basic level of AI for my companions. Maybe calling it "AI" is a stretch, but a simple script that will auto-engage a new enemy when my current target dies, would go a long way in this regard.

 

Nobody ever said the game is boned without turn-based combat. Please don't misrepresent my post.

[Cantousent]

I actually like TB combat better, but I'll enjoy the combat with RT:WP.  The statement Eurogamer made about the system could have been made about any and all of the ie games.

 

It would be funny if they changed to combat XP at the last minute.  Then we'd suddenly switch sides with us objective XP folks becoming the Molotov ****tail throwing insurgents and the combat XP folks manning the barricades.  I hope that doesn't happen, but it would give everyone a nice fresh perspective of how the other guy feels.  hehe

[Tartantyco]

I never meant to imply that this is an OMFG issue, but it's a relevant one worthy of discussion: How can real-time-with-pause be made to work better? Maybe you've had a different experience with the backer beta than I have, but I really miss having a basic level of AI for my companions. Maybe calling it "AI" is a stretch, but a simple script that will auto-engage a new enemy when my current target dies, would go a long way in this regard.

 

Nobody ever said the game is boned without turn-based combat. Please don't misrepresent my post.

 

I wasn't referring to your post, Hydra(Except the Script AI stuff).

 

I actually like TB combat better, but I'll enjoy the combat with RT:WP.  The statement Eurogamer made about the system could have been made about any and all of the ie games.

 

It would be funny if they changed to combat XP at the last minute.  Then we'd suddenly switch sides with us objective XP folks becoming the Molotov ****tail throwing insurgents and the combat XP folks manning the barricades.  I hope that doesn't happen, but it would give everyone a nice fresh perspective of how the other guy feels.  hehe

 

I don't think too many people are as emotionally invested in their positions as the combat-XP people, so I don't think there'd be much uproar. I simply believe Objective or Quest XP to be the superior design choice.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Tartantyco

[Fiebras]

Also this: "If you want an Orlan with the build of a towering Aumaua, or a human-sized dwarf, you can."

I think thats refering to the Orlan being able of getting the same stats and class as the Aumaua and human but not the racial traits.