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Was the backer beta a good idea?

bugs negativity fatigue

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#41
Sarex

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Wow this insider posts from people that really know what's going on inside Obsidian! Impressive! Sawyer sure is a dictator... /sarcasm

 

Any prof to show otherwise? This street goes both ways. We are offering our opinions from interactions with Josh. You are just spamming.



#42
Uomoz

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If I'm spamming all you are spamming as well, since the topic is "Was the backer beta a good idea?", not how the combat xp design decision came to life. That said, it's obvious that only forum rednecks can really whine this much about the xp thingie. Probably inside Obsidian nobody really cares that much about it, they just want a fun combat game with crazy good dialogues.


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#43
C2B

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I very much doubt there was a vote.


Not a literal one. A discussion where everyone voiced their opinions on it and stood their case.
 

 

But I really doubt Sawyer would have done it if a visible majority was set against it.


I do.

 


k

I don't. For one because it was still very early in the development period where there wasn't any incentive to go forward, for the other because thats really not the impression I have of Josh. (At least not without making a strong case for the approach/convincing the others or adapting the system he wants for a solution that satisfies.)

Similiar to here
 

Josh: "Hey guys, I don't think we are giving enough to the community with this game."

Rich and I: "Agreed, but what can we do now?"

Josh: "I want to give them a functioning deity system. I want it to respect class, gender, and alignment, and I want it enforced. If your class or alignment changes, your deity will reject you and you will have to pick another."

Josh then began to graph and chart his deity system on the dryboard, going into a LOT of detail. He clearly had done his homework on this.

Me: "Josh, I think this all looks great, but the problem is that in NWN1, the only data and events that were setup were very limited and involved a SINGLE string that has no data verification on it. I'm under the gun and running late."

Josh: "We gotta do this, we gotta give them something."

Me: "Unless you can come up with a way to make this work with ONLY a single string variable that can be tossed back and forth over the client/server wall, I don't know. We also can't add anymore events at this point, so this is something we could ONLY check at certain predetermined points, like level up for example."

Josh, without missing a beat: "I'll be back."

30 Minutes later...


Josh returned and spelled out his modified Deity System that very closely fit within the criteria I gave him. Sure I would have to make SOME changes, plus I would have to still implement the whole thing, but suddenly this became VERY doable.

...

...and that is just ONE example of how Josh is an amazing designer and project director. No, he's not perfect, but he gets soooo much and understands HOW to work within a system to get what he wants. I have seen many designers argue with me for HOURS about how it HAS TO BE THIS WAY NO MATTER THE COST when the reality is quite the opposite.

 

 

Sawyer is probably the one Obsidian dev I have seen most ex-Obsidian devs praise. Annie, Tony, Kevin, George, Anthony said (who wrote the previous quote and is at Obsidian again after resolving personal stuff). Everyone more or less said something nice about him.

 

I mean I can certainly buy *Has a clear direction and leads to it*. I just don't buy *Goes over peoples heads that disagree/Dictator*.


Edited by C2B, 06 September 2014 - 08:16 AM.

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#44
Sensuki

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I'm not saying he's a dictator. I'm saying that XP for combat was not up for discussion, ever.

I have not posted on the issue since the 2012 thread, because I understand that it is simply not up for discussion ;)

Edited by Sensuki, 06 September 2014 - 08:16 AM.

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#45
Elerond

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Take the combat XP discussion, for instance.


Not the best example because the Lead Designer was set on that from the beginning. Other members of the development team were not. The CEO of their own company prefers combat XP.

You're continued attitude of "the developers are better than you" is tiresome.

 

 

This is bit funny considering that in most of the time in gaming forums people lament how games are made to please CEOs and other business  people instead of following developer/designer's vision  :rolleyes:  :dancing:


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#46
C2B

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I'm not saying he's a dictator. I'm saying that XP for combat was not up for discussion, ever.

I have not posted on the issue since the 2012 thread, because I understand that it is simply not up for discussion ;)

 
Certainly an interesting thing to ask in a interview/post-mortem on the game if combat xp was never really discussed.
 
:biggrin:

Edit: On the public side I agree by the way. Internally (at the beginning) eh, I doubt it.

Doesn't matter anyway.

Edited by C2B, 06 September 2014 - 08:58 AM.


#47
mutonizer

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I'm not saying he's a dictator. I'm saying that XP for combat was not up for discussion, ever.

I have not posted on the issue since the 2012 thread, because I understand that it is simply not up for discussion ;)

 

Yea that's been my reasoning as well and I basically just jumped on the train couple weeks ago. That's really something I immediately realized was a "no go" so I just let it drop.



#48
Matt516

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For me, I think it'll come down to a few things:

 

1) I'm not playing a huge amount of the beta at the moment - just enough to identify the most glaring bugs, report them, and then not play it again til a second patch. That'll help me personally with a lot of the "game fatigue" that is certainly a concern for us beta backers.

 

2) I'll have to make a huge perspective shift once the game releases. While it's still in beta, most of the features I don't like are subject to change. Because of that, I look at the game with a much more critical eye. Once the game releases, those features are set in stone, so there's no point lamenting those that don't get changed/fixed. So I'll have to look at it like I would any other game. Probably every game I've ever played has had tons of features I would rather be changed. But because they were finished products, I enjoyed them as they were. Of course, modding kind of removes this, which is one reason I only dabble in modding, and even then only for a few games. Waay too easy to get caught up trying to "fix" every single little thing instead of just enjoying the game as it is.


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#49
Matt516

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Maybe, probably, hopefully.

 

Something that might help would be simple official list on couple core issues topic, like:

- XP for combat: This has been discussed, will never change.

- Health / Stamina: This has been discussed, will never change, just balanced at best.

- etc...

 

At least we'd know what's final, what's still being discussed, then can focus on balancing, rather than arguing.

 

This would be really nice. You should make a separate post about this addressing the devs, Muton.



#50
Starwars

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I'm sure Obsidian expected a certain amount of, ahem... aggression. But as long as the posts contains something constructive then I think it's good. In particular, I think they will have a huge help in balancing the game and just getting an idea from the players how the whole thing feels. For tweaking and minor additions I think the backer feedback will be immensely useful.

 

I'm sure there will be posts on release saying "I suggested this back in the beta and OEI SUCKS for not implementing it" but that's to be expected naturally.

 

It is kinda amusing how emotional one can get over a game in the making though. And that's not a jab at other people, that's something I'm guilty of as well.


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#51
IndiraLightfoot

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I'm not saying he's a dictator. I'm saying that XP for combat was not up for discussion, ever.

I have not posted on the issue since the 2012 thread, because I understand that it is simply not up for discussion ;)

 

Yea that's been my reasoning as well and I basically just jumped on the train couple weeks ago. That's really something I immediately realized was a "no go" so I just let it drop.

 

Wusses. ;)



#52
nipsen

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Don't want to start a huge thing. But on combat/xp - it fits with making different characters, and sticking to role-playing them, doesn't it.. I mean, when you come from a role-playing background, this stuff always annoys you in crpgs. In a game, an actual Druid, or true neutral characters, would hardly gain any experience at all, for example. They would never resolve any conflicts on their own, they would avoid combat, they would talk a lot and discover secrets - but never actually use them for anything. A good wizard would collect the hidden scroll - and.. teleport back to the library, and stay there for a month, and mechanically gain nothing. Unfortunately, the thief always is a mass-murderer, no matter how skilled, etc.

 

So in games, you don't play a neutral character. You choose one because of alignment restrictions. And then the game requires the Druid of the hidden leaf to murder thousands of critters for no reason, etc. And the design simply allows you to add small "alignment" addons in conversations, but not really let people role-play them. Even if you managed to sneak past everyone, the xp penalty is crippling.

 

I'm just thinking that I'm sure Obsidian simply choose this because it broadens the role-playing options they can put into the game. Now the pirate can sneak into the stronghold, hold up the boss, and resolve the situation without bloodshed - and that's a good solution to the quest, like any other. The Druid can avoid exterminating the spiders and ruining the ecosystem forever - and sympathetically confront the Ogre as a fellow creature deserving of life no less than anything else.. without having to wash off the spider-goo from the armor first, etc. 

 

..No one ever reacted to that in an rpg, by the way? The story demands that there's a crazed druid with a scar in his soul running around killing people. And you sort of want to tell the guy that: yeah, but that's all right. I've killed 100000 people so far, and it doesn't bother me at all! You should really just stop worrying so much!

 

And then the game has you bash the guy's head in, after your animal companion rips his arms off, for the good of nature's balance.

 

Crpgs as they are usually done aren't very deep. It's usually one type of character, just with different labels. And they shouldn't be like that.

 

There's just no reason for it, right..? Unless you somehow want to make the point that having less role-playing options, makes the game more "accessible". Or something of that sort.


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#53
Sarex

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@nipsen

 

This is simply not such a game, your druid will have to fight. He will even kill creatures of the forest.



#54
EldritchSong

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Yes the Backer Beta is a good idea.

 

No, participating in it does not (or should not) spoil participating in the final project.  To say that it does, means that no designer or developer could ever enjoy something they created because they saw all the bugs behind the scenes.  It would be the same as saying no one who worked on a movie could enjoy watching it because they saw all the issues.  As someone who has been on both sides of the design/development process I can truly say that the feeling you get from designing/developing something and seeing it come true is much more positive than just experiencing a finished product.  We, just like the devs, are seeing pieces of it right now.  Seeing the final synthesized offering will be a different experience.

 

Maybe part of it is mindset.  I participate in the beta... I do not play in the beta.  My mind set is one of evaluating and testing the various systems to see what does/does not work conceptually and what does/does not work mechanically.  We are not playing with early access - thats an entirely different thing. I  think some people confuse the two.  We are now part of the (unpaid) development team.

 

So I participated in 257 and now 278.  I am already very pleased with how many of the issues I pointed out were broken in my rather lengthy review of 257 have now been addressed in 278 and how much tighter PoE feels overall.  Is it perfect yet?  Of course not, but release is many months away and they actually made a ton of progress.  And dont worry, I am not saying only I pointed those things out.  This is not about me. Just saying I feel good.

 

We all knew this would be IE-like with some twists.  Some may or may not like the twists.  While thats ok, having those twists is part of design and there may be little we can do about the design at this point.  We are now in development.  Fixing, optimizing, etc the twists and the core systems is where we are at now. 

 

Also, I am glad there are reportedly no spoliers in the beta.  This was a wise decision for both us and the dev team.

 

EldrtichSong



#55
leninghola

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I'm treating it like a beta, not an early access.

 

I think it was a great idea to do the backer beta. There has been some incredibly well thought out feedback from the community. 

 

 

Honestly, despite the bugs and some poorly tuned systems, I'm enjoying the beta. It's going to take time to get the game tuned and polished, but I can see the potential.



#56
Suen

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Wow this insider posts from people that really know what's going on inside Obsidian! Impressive! Sawyer sure is a dictator... /sarcasm

 

Any prof to show otherwise? This street goes both ways. We are offering our opinions from interactions with Josh. You are just spamming.

 

There is no "both ways". The burden of proof fall on you, as you are the one presenting the theory.


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#57
Sarex

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There is no "both ways". The burden of proof fall on you, as you are the one presenting the theory.

 

Not a theory but an opinion, my proof are Josh's own post.



#58
Uomoz

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Other's opinions are spam then? Pff.



#59
GreyFox

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If he's the project lead he should get final say otherwise he wouldn't ever really be empowered and Feargus would just be micromanaging and I doubt that would work or that he'd stay in such a situation.

 

I don't think Obsidian's culture is like that. I have no doubt that they discuss it then JE has the final say and gives his explanation why....at least that's how it works in Dev shops with any sort of decent culture.

 

I doubt JE goes over and tells the tank team what to do and I don't suspect that happens to him either. 


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#60
Ineth

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why hasn't any of them including Q&A mentioned their concerns with things like rest spamming. This was one of the degenerate things Josh criticised in the IE games.

 

I don't think Josh's "degenerate rest spamming" complaint against the IE games is about having to rest too often due to low health.

 

On the contrary, I think he just dislikes that fact that players could (and were in some ways encouraged to) game the system by resting arbitrarily often even when their health didn't require it, just to get back per-rest spells and abilities.
 

His solution was to introduce camping supplies as a limited resource (which makes rest spamming less feasible), and make more abilities per-encounter (which makes rest spamming less tempting).

 

At least that's how I understood it...


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