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Was the backer beta a good idea?

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Take the combat XP discussion, for instance.

Not the best example because the Lead Designer was set on that from the beginning. Other members of the development team were not. The CEO of their own company prefers combat XP.

 

You're continued attitude of "the developers are better than you" is tiresome.

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Take the combat XP discussion, for instance.

Not the best example because the Lead Designer was set on that from the beginning. Other members of the development team were not. The CEO of their own company prefers combat XP.

 

You're continued attitude of "the developers are better than you" is tiresome.

 

Straw man detected. I'm saying that you're arguing from a position of ignorance, but with the attitude of someone who's omniscient.

 

(Also, are you saying that a situation in which developers would be more likely to discuss the XP system would somehow make it less likely that they would discuss the XP system?)

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Take the combat XP discussion, for instance.

Not the best example because the Lead Designer was set on that from the beginning. Other members of the development team were not. The CEO of their own company prefers combat XP.You're continued attitude of "the developers are better than you" is tiresome.

Careful here. I very much doubt quest xp is in because Sawyer set himself over everyone. (Despite what Volourn thinks) Like everything else this was most likely discussed internally with the majority being for Quest/Objective XP in the end.

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Careful here. I very much doubt quest xp is in because Sawyer set himself over everyone. (Despite what Volourn thinks) Like everything else this was most likely discussed internally with the majority being for Quest/Objective XP in the end.

 

He is the project lead though.

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Straw man detected. I'm saying that you're arguing from a position of ignorance, but with the attitude of someone who's omniscient.

 

(Also, are you saying that a situation in which developers would be more likely to discuss the XP system would somehow make it less likely that they would discuss the XP system?)

I don't see how that is ignorant, I was informing you that Combat XP was literally never up for discussion.

 

You are correct in that the discussions on combat XP in this forum serve no purpose other than to vent, as it will quite literally never be reversed.

 

Careful here. I very much doubt quest xp is in because Sawyer set himself over everyone. (Despite what Volourn thinks) Like everything else this was most likely discussed internally with the majority being for Quest/Objective XP in the end.

I believe it is. There would no doubt have been others that agree with him, but it's something he's wanted to do for a while. Ask Roguey. He would probably be able to pull a quote for you about it.

Edited by Sensuki
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Careful here. I very much doubt quest xp is in because Sawyer set himself over everyone. (Despite what Volourn thinks) Like everything else this was most likely discussed internally with the majority being for Quest/Objective XP in the end.

 

 

He is the project lead though.

Final decision. Yes. (Of course any of the owners could overrule him) But I really doubt Sawyer would have done it if a visible majority was set against it.

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But I really doubt Sawyer would have done it if a visible majority was set against it.

I do.

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Careful here. I very much doubt quest xp is in because Sawyer set himself over everyone. (Despite what Volourn thinks) Like everything else this was most likely discussed internally with the majority being for Quest/Objective XP in the end.

I believe it is. There would no doubt have been others that agree with him, but it's something he's wanted to do for a while. Ask Roguey. He would probably be able to pull a quote for you about it.
Yeah, I definitly don't need selective Roguey quoting (I have read enough posts from people who actually know/knew Sawyer to have an impression of him. )And I don't doubt Sawyer wanted to do it.

 

What I'm arguing against is the picture of Sawyer as some dictactor that forced it in.

Edited by C2B

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There may have been many concerns and reservations about some of the design choices and not just combat xp from the other developers. I could see Josh putting his case forward and convincing them that his design would be good.

 

What I'm wondering is if the dev's have been testing this for months, why hasn't any of them including Q&A mentioned their concerns with things like rest spamming. This was one of the degenerate things Josh criticised in the IE games. Even in the latest video, Rose rests twice before she gets to the Ogre and she took the optimal path avoiding a lot of trash mobs. This never happened in the IE games with a simple FedEx quest. Surely some of the dev's would be thinking, 'geez, I'm resting a lot before I even try and finish a simple quest'. These sort of things should have been picked up and something done about it.

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I think financially it was a good idea to have a public beta, it's something that sounds good when pitching the idea. And don't think they would have reached the same amount of funding if it wasn't for having beta on the tier list. It should also be good for a game in development to have "more eyes" so they can get rid of most bugs. But on the other hand it seems like people somehow get confused by the beta concept, and think it's more like a demo of the game. It may be that these people will have a harder time looking past the negatives when the full game releases. I hope not though.

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Maybe, probably, hopefully.

 

Something that might help would be simple official list on couple core issues topic, like:

- XP for combat: This has been discussed, will never change.

- Health / Stamina: This has been discussed, will never change, just balanced at best.

- etc...

 

At least we'd know what's final, what's still being discussed, then can focus on balancing, rather than arguing.

This is but a bare minimum!

For this beta to be constructive for them, and fair for those of us (we're fans of OE, and really want this IP to succeed), we need a pretty detailed account of those core issues, and the leeway for change for each of them.

I'm missing that Swen Vincke of Larian Games-approach a bit, or closer to the devs beta, where feedback got updated quicker, and whole systems could go out the window, even with ideals if needs be, only to make the game better and more attractive for the backers. Swen even dropped a few KS promises, just to make sure that stuff that got in were pampered correctly.

Edited by IndiraLightfoot

*** "The words of someone who feels ever more the ent among saplings when playing CRPGs" ***

 

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Wow this insider posts from people that really know what's going on inside Obsidian! Impressive! Sawyer sure is a dictator... /sarcasm

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Yeah, I definitly don't need selective Roguey quoting (I have read enough posts from people who actually know/knew Sawyer to have an impression of him. )And I don't doubt Sawyer wanted to do it.

 

What I'm arguing against is the picture of Sawyer as some dictactor that forced it in.

 

An error in your hypothesis is that you are pretty sure that other devs would have done anything more them offer mild objections, which Josh would have needed to squash. I imagine that even though there were disagreements, there was very little opposition.

Edited by Sarex

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Wow this insider posts from people that really know what's going on inside Obsidian! Impressive! Sawyer sure is a dictator... /sarcasm

 

Any prof to show otherwise? This street goes both ways. We are offering our opinions from interactions with Josh. You are just spamming.

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If I'm spamming all you are spamming as well, since the topic is "Was the backer beta a good idea?", not how the combat xp design decision came to life. That said, it's obvious that only forum rednecks can really whine this much about the xp thingie. Probably inside Obsidian nobody really cares that much about it, they just want a fun combat game with crazy good dialogues.

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I very much doubt there was a vote.

Not a literal one. A discussion where everyone voiced their opinions on it and stood their case.

 

 

But I really doubt Sawyer would have done it if a visible majority was set against it.

I do.

 

k

 

I don't. For one because it was still very early in the development period where there wasn't any incentive to go forward, for the other because thats really not the impression I have of Josh. (At least not without making a strong case for the approach/convincing the others or adapting the system he wants for a solution that satisfies.)

 

Similiar to here

 

Josh: "Hey guys, I don't think we are giving enough to the community with this game."

 

Rich and I: "Agreed, but what can we do now?"

 

Josh: "I want to give them a functioning deity system. I want it to respect class, gender, and alignment, and I want it enforced. If your class or alignment changes, your deity will reject you and you will have to pick another."

 

Josh then began to graph and chart his deity system on the dryboard, going into a LOT of detail. He clearly had done his homework on this.

 

Me: "Josh, I think this all looks great, but the problem is that in NWN1, the only data and events that were setup were very limited and involved a SINGLE string that has no data verification on it. I'm under the gun and running late."

 

Josh: "We gotta do this, we gotta give them something."

 

Me: "Unless you can come up with a way to make this work with ONLY a single string variable that can be tossed back and forth over the client/server wall, I don't know. We also can't add anymore events at this point, so this is something we could ONLY check at certain predetermined points, like level up for example."

 

Josh, without missing a beat: "I'll be back."

 

30 Minutes later...

 

 

Josh returned and spelled out his modified Deity System that very closely fit within the criteria I gave him. Sure I would have to make SOME changes, plus I would have to still implement the whole thing, but suddenly this became VERY doable.

 

...

 

...and that is just ONE example of how Josh is an amazing designer and project director. No, he's not perfect, but he gets soooo much and understands HOW to work within a system to get what he wants. I have seen many designers argue with me for HOURS about how it HAS TO BE THIS WAY NO MATTER THE COST when the reality is quite the opposite.

 

 

Sawyer is probably the one Obsidian dev I have seen most ex-Obsidian devs praise. Annie, Tony, Kevin, George, Anthony said (who wrote the previous quote and is at Obsidian again after resolving personal stuff). Everyone more or less said something nice about him.

 

I mean I can certainly buy *Has a clear direction and leads to it*. I just don't buy *Goes over peoples heads that disagree/Dictator*.

Edited by C2B
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I'm not saying he's a dictator. I'm saying that XP for combat was not up for discussion, ever.

 

I have not posted on the issue since the 2012 thread, because I understand that it is simply not up for discussion ;)

Edited by Sensuki
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Take the combat XP discussion, for instance.

Not the best example because the Lead Designer was set on that from the beginning. Other members of the development team were not. The CEO of their own company prefers combat XP.

 

You're continued attitude of "the developers are better than you" is tiresome.

 

 

This is bit funny considering that in most of the time in gaming forums people lament how games are made to please CEOs and other business  people instead of following developer/designer's vision  :rolleyes:  :dancing:

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I'm not saying he's a dictator. I'm saying that XP for combat was not up for discussion, ever.

 

I have not posted on the issue since the 2012 thread, because I understand that it is simply not up for discussion ;)

 

Certainly an interesting thing to ask in a interview/post-mortem on the game if combat xp was never really discussed.

 

:biggrin:

 

Edit: On the public side I agree by the way. Internally (at the beginning) eh, I doubt it.

 

Doesn't matter anyway.

Edited by C2B

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I'm not saying he's a dictator. I'm saying that XP for combat was not up for discussion, ever.

 

I have not posted on the issue since the 2012 thread, because I understand that it is simply not up for discussion ;)

 

Yea that's been my reasoning as well and I basically just jumped on the train couple weeks ago. That's really something I immediately realized was a "no go" so I just let it drop.

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For me, I think it'll come down to a few things:

 

1) I'm not playing a huge amount of the beta at the moment - just enough to identify the most glaring bugs, report them, and then not play it again til a second patch. That'll help me personally with a lot of the "game fatigue" that is certainly a concern for us beta backers.

 

2) I'll have to make a huge perspective shift once the game releases. While it's still in beta, most of the features I don't like are subject to change. Because of that, I look at the game with a much more critical eye. Once the game releases, those features are set in stone, so there's no point lamenting those that don't get changed/fixed. So I'll have to look at it like I would any other game. Probably every game I've ever played has had tons of features I would rather be changed. But because they were finished products, I enjoyed them as they were. Of course, modding kind of removes this, which is one reason I only dabble in modding, and even then only for a few games. Waay too easy to get caught up trying to "fix" every single little thing instead of just enjoying the game as it is.

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Maybe, probably, hopefully.

 

Something that might help would be simple official list on couple core issues topic, like:

- XP for combat: This has been discussed, will never change.

- Health / Stamina: This has been discussed, will never change, just balanced at best.

- etc...

 

At least we'd know what's final, what's still being discussed, then can focus on balancing, rather than arguing.

 

This would be really nice. You should make a separate post about this addressing the devs, Muton.

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I'm sure Obsidian expected a certain amount of, ahem... aggression. But as long as the posts contains something constructive then I think it's good. In particular, I think they will have a huge help in balancing the game and just getting an idea from the players how the whole thing feels. For tweaking and minor additions I think the backer feedback will be immensely useful.

 

I'm sure there will be posts on release saying "I suggested this back in the beta and OEI SUCKS for not implementing it" but that's to be expected naturally.

 

It is kinda amusing how emotional one can get over a game in the making though. And that's not a jab at other people, that's something I'm guilty of as well.

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