Do you want experience from combat?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Really, what does it say about a community that seems more than happy to vote and deny the other half something that they desperately want which costs nor affects the opposing subscriber-base anything at all.

Strange.

That the community hates romance.

[Gromnir]

Really, what does it say about a community that seems more than happy to vote and deny the other half something that they desperately want which costs nor affects the opposing subscriber-base anything at all.

Strange.

there is no vote. we has made that observation elsewhere. the developers decided on a best course o' action. they then watched to see how their plan worked in reality via considerable QA, and based on their considerable experience with QA o' past games. this game is now in late beta and sawyer and cain, after having reviewed how game were actually played and responded to via QA, feels that their original choice were correct.

 

the notion that this is a voting issue is a fantasy. is unlikely obsidian would have time or resources to change at this point regardless, but they don't believe a change is justified based on the hypothetical musings o' a relative small number o' boardies when they has actual QA data that backs up their perspective. is no vote.  there never were a community vote on this issue. 

 

perhaps if somebody, somewhere, in one o' these interminable and repetitive xp mechanic threads came up with a New perspective that had not been argued and dismissed a hundred times before, the obsidians might consider changes for the Next game, but not only has we seen no such new info, but it still wouldn't be a matter o' votes.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gromnir]

 

is not a matter o' compromise regarding argument, but a recognition o' definitions. can't have a meaningful debate unless one can agree on basic definitions. duh.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Again I feel the sting of irony that you are critiquing me on lack of understanding leading to an ineffective debate. I mean seriously dude.. I barely can piece together what your even talking about.. I read every third word and hope I caught the gist of what you meant..

 

Which clearly I didn't.

 

HA! Good Fun!

finally, something we can agree to: you have a fundamental "lack of understanding."

 

HA! Good Fun!

[aeonsim]

Really, what does it say about a community that seems more than happy to vote and deny the other half something that they desperately want which costs nor affects the opposing subscriber-base anything at all.

Strange.

 

Assuming your pro combat XP which is likely considering the number of polls about it you've created your making two massive assumptions there, one you assume that combat XP has little cost, and two you assume that those opposed or Neutral to combat XP believe that there is little cost to this feature.

 

The second assumption is wrong with out doubt and the first is provably wrong, simply by considering what you would need to do to implement a proper balanced sole Combat XP or combined Combat/Quest XP system.

 

At a bare minimum a combat XP system would require at least a few days of software developer time, a few weeks of designer time and a minimum of a month of QA time (probably far more). Those are not minor costs for a project that has reached beta stage. Sure you could whip together a basic combat XP system in a couple of days but to balance and test it would take a huge amount of time. Software development is not magic it has costs and any fundamental feature/system change at this point in the game's development has a massive cost.

 

Even if there was a magical way to add it with little cost those opposed or neutral to it will be being entirely rational to believe that there is a cost to this and to vote solely against it on their believe in the existence of that cost.

[Immortalis]

 

 

is not a matter o' compromise regarding argument, but a recognition o' definitions. can't have a meaningful debate unless one can agree on basic definitions. duh.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Again I feel the sting of irony that you are critiquing me on lack of understanding leading to an ineffective debate. I mean seriously dude.. I barely can piece together what your even talking about.. I read every third word and hope I caught the gist of what you meant..

 

Which clearly I didn't.

 

HA! Good Fun!

finally, something we can agree to: you have a fundamental "lack of understanding."

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

I don't think my lack of understanding is fundamental unless everyone in the world starts talking like a retarded orc.

I need a Gromnir translator.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Immortalis

[IRMA]

To all those of you who claim that adding xp for kills would destroy the balance of leveling - on what basis exactly do you decide that creators of the game would definitely fail on this one? What part of the current game makes you think that?

[Cantousent]

I don't have anything against the combat XP crowd.  First of all, I've seen some of them online for literally over a decade from the BIS days.  Second, I can sympathize with a lot of the opposing arguments.  I don't believe by the mass the other side is stupid, obnoxious, or deficient.  I jus think they're wrong.  I figure they must feel the same way about folks on my side, otherwise they wouldn't argue.

 

Anyhow, when I thought that they were going to include combat XP, along with every bit of incidental XP folks could conjure out of a sense of 'fairness,' I was quite vocal about opposing it.  It looks like the school of thought I support has won the day.  I certainly hope so, but I figure that there are more areas on which most of us agree than disagree.  That's as close to a kumbaya moment for me.  If it turns out the devs lose their grit and include combat XP, I'll argue inasmuch as I think we have some small chance of taking back the day, then I'll just figure my side lost and get on with life.  ...But, like aeon said, two diametrically opposed positions can't find an accommodation for both sides without one side losing.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

 

 

 

 

is not a matter o' compromise regarding argument, but a recognition o' definitions. can't have a meaningful debate unless one can agree on basic definitions. duh.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Again I feel the sting of irony that you are critiquing me on lack of understanding leading to an ineffective debate. I mean seriously dude.. I barely can piece together what your even talking about.. I read every third word and hope I caught the gist of what you meant..

 

Which clearly I didn't.

 

HA! Good Fun!

finally, something we can agree to: you have a fundamental "lack of understanding."

 

HA! Good Fun!

I don't think my lack of understanding is fundamental unless everyone in the world starts talking like a retarded orc.

I need a Gromnir translator.

http://i.word.com

[GreyFox]

Jeeze I thought gromnir was from a non english speaking country doing his best to write in english. Wow he writes that way by choice?

 

It's just a forum personality...you guys gotta bring more to the table than that in your quest to kill quest only xp (and then get xp from that kill)

[Stun]

 

In fact *some* of the quest xp-only people are deliberately painting this as a binary choice when it isn't.

 

The *vast* majority of 'combat xp' proponents are in fact (as Msxyz points out) 'wider spread of xp reward methods' proponents, amongst which combat is only one.

sorry mc, but it kinda is binary. a primary value o' quest/task is that it avoids balancing. if you create categories that include kill/combat and quest and whatever, you has invalidated the point o' quest/task. you has necessarily reintroduced balancing.

 

What a load of baloney. There's nothing stopping the devs from utterly separating combat from quests.

 

Take the Ogre quest in the beta. That one is worth 2000xp (or whatever) regardless of how you complete it. Therefore, the Gromnirs of the world are happy.

 

Now, what about the totally-unrelated-Lions on the other map? Hmm? Oh, I know! we can make them worth XP if they stomp on the party while they're exploring. Problem friggin solved.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Tale
:(

[Gromnir]

 

Jeeze I thought gromnir was from a non english speaking country doing his best to write in english. Wow he writes that way by choice?

 

It's just a forum personality...you guys gotta bring more to the table than that in your quest to kill quest only xp (and then get xp from that kill)

 

we noted elsewhere that the Gromnir personality is a near infallible schmuck detector. when folks abandon rational argument and instead focus on our board persona, it is functional an admission o' defeat... or simple schmuckness. on boards such as these, schmuck and intellectual limited go hand-in-hand, so it is admitted tough to distinguish at times.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Gromnir]

 

 

In fact *some* of the quest xp-only people are deliberately painting this as a binary choice when it isn't.

 

The *vast* majority of 'combat xp' proponents are in fact (as Msxyz points out) 'wider spread of xp reward methods' proponents, amongst which combat is only one.

sorry mc, but it kinda is binary. a primary value o' quest/task is that it avoids balancing. if you create categories that include kill/combat and quest and whatever, you has invalidated the point o' quest/task. you has necessarily reintroduced balancing.

 

What a load of baloney. There's nothing stopping the devs from utterly separating combat from quests.

 

Take the Ogre quest in the beta. That one is worth 2000xp regardless of how you complete it. Therefore, the Gromnirs are the world are happy.

 

Now, what about the totally-unrelated-Lions on the other map? Hmm? Oh, I know! we can make them worth XP if they stomp on the party while they're exploring. Problem friggin solved.

 

getting 2000 xp for the ogre quest is admitted not the problem. getting 2000 xp for the ogre resolution and then trying to add in and balance awards for combats against the bugs and spiders you need to fight or avoid to get to the ogre, or perhaps awards for some other unexpected route to confronting the ogre the developers did not plan for, is what creates a Balancing problem.

 

is this genuine confusing? how?

 

the lions example is pointless with quest xp.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Zansatsu]

 

Jeeze I thought gromnir was from a non english speaking country doing his best to write in english. Wow he writes that way by choice?

 

It's just a forum personality...you guys gotta bring more to the table than that in your quest to kill quest only xp (and then get xp from that kill)

 

No I actually hadn't paid much attention to it. I really thought he talked that way. I did not know he was pretending to be an orc.

[Sarex]

Also once you see gromnir talk more and more like normal person it means he is on the ropes. Quite funny when you see it actually. 

Edited August 29, 2014 by Sarex

[Stun]

the lions example is pointless with quest xp.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Why? Do they not exist? are they not hostile? Do they not attack the party? Did the devs not specifically place them in the party's way?

 

They're not part of any quest, and therefore cannot be Double-dipped, exploited, or talked down. Nor does attaching an XP value to them break balance, since they will always be available to everyone who chooses to explore that optional map in between questing.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Stun

[Gromnir]

Also once you see gromnir talk more and more like normal person it means he is on the ropes. Quite funny when you see it actually. 

actually,  the only time we do so is on the rare occasions when we is serious... typical drop the "HA! Good Fun" too, just so as to be clear. most  recent example were some clown making light about his ancestors raping ours. some folks has commented on the fact that they recall us posting normal, but cannot recal more than a handful o' times in more than a decade.  

 

you is free to imagine different causes if you wish. it amuses us that you put such thought into the matter.

 

nevertheless, thanks again for proving our point 'bout efficacy o' schmuck detector function. illustrations is always useful.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[GreyFox]

 

 

While praised almost universally, it failed to capture the mass-market imagination in the same way that its predecessor Baldur's Gate did - selling around 400,000 copies. The original Diablo game, released three years earlier, (albeit a rather different sort of game) reputedly sold approximately 2.5 million copies.

 

Look I really dont get why you all say amount of selled copies equals quality in those xp threads. On the one hand, people here express their hate against those "soulless" trible A games and on the other hand you say that sold copies is a indicator for quality. You basicaly say that assassins creed and cod are the best games ever made, also they should make PoE closer to diablo, guild wars 2 or the witcher because those games sold more copies than baldurs gate2. Following your argument thats exactly what you want.

 

 

You are partially correct (from my PoV anyway)....however...

 

That's why you compare it and put it up against other games that are from the same genre and released around the same time. So CoD and AssCreed aren't viable comparisons. The other IE games are perfectly fine examples and PS:T easily sold less than the rest...

 

Planescape Torment is considered one of the best RPGs ever because the hip, trendy hive-mind of gaming journalism says so. Most of Torment's devotees online were probably twelve when it was released.

 

I'm not attacking Torment, although it was never my cup of tea, but the praise heaped on it is mystifying. Until you realise it's like the person who claims to have read a book he or she feels they must like to keep up with the herd.

 

Torment would have been a crazy good book but wasn't overly fun to play. It was a great story and very interesting but got boring pretty quickly and the units sold tell as good a story as the game itself did. Which is...most people in this genre want to actually do more than walk around and click through pages and pages of dialogue. The game wasn't bad by any means it just got boring and lacked in overall fun.

[Sarex]

actually,  the only time we do so is on the rare occasions when we is serious... typical drop the "HA! Good Fun" too, just so as to be clear. most  recent example were some clown making light about his ancestors raping ours. some folks has commented on the fact that they recall us posting normal, but cannot recal more than a handful o' times in more than a decade.  

 

you is free to imagine different causes if you wish. it amuses us that you put such thought into the matter.

 

nevertheless, thanks again for proving our point 'bout efficacy o' schmuck detector function. illustrations is always useful.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Np dude glad to be of help, I remember our times fondly in the boobplate discussion we had. My imagination must have went wild there.

[Uomoz]

PST... Boring? Unacceptable! *axes him down*

[Gromnir]

 

the lions example is pointless with quest xp.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Why? Do they not exist? are they not hostile? Do they not attack the party? Did the devs not specifically place them in the party's way?

 

They're not part of any quest, and therefore cannot be Double-dipped, exploited, or talked down. Nor does attaching an XP value to them break balance, since they will always be available to everyone who chooses to explore that optional map in between questing.

 

*groan*

 

and thus we see the complete lack o' comprehension regarding the possible balance issues.  some folks will skip the bugs and spiders by stealthily getting past. others may find some more clever route. what if developers added a secret door?  so why does the fighty character get more xp? and if you do give awards for stealthy, how to you balance properly... and how do you prevent folks from doing stealth and kill?

 

quest xp avoids all such balancing issues completely. developers don't care how you solve tasks or quests, so they need not create a perfect calculus to balance.

 

but this has all been said before, and developers is keenly aware that some group o' sincere but misguided folks believe as stun... but stun belief doesn't impact the way QA folks has played game.

 

"PoE is a role-play game that allows sneaky and diplomatic. give xp awards for individual kills, and individual lockpicks and individual whatever inevitably leads to an ideal approach for maximizing xp by making the right gameplay and character development choices. quest only xp avoids the need to devise a fair an balanced calculus. quest is simple and guaranteed to result in every player getting exact same XP rewards for completing quests regardless o' how they chose to complete the quest."

 

so, ignoring for a moment that this entire debate is complete moot given the time left for development and the fact that sawyer and cain bot favor quest xp, "provide an alternative system that is as simple and straightforward to implement as task/quest only xp that will will guarantee that regardless of an individual purchaser's style o' gameplay, they will get as much xp as a fighty, diplomatic, sneaky or whatever else kinda player."

 

HA! Good Fun!

[GreyFox]

No I actually hadn't paid much attention to it. I really thought he talked that way. I did not know he was pretending to be an orc.

 

 

I wasn't attacking you either just saying...

 

I also don't know that he's supposed to be an orc or hobgoblin or what....he didn't tell me and I don't' remember from back in the late 90's/2000.

 

I always enjoyed it and he has always posted well IMO I just so happen to totally disagree with him in regards to this subject.

(and no I don't want ONLY kill XP but prefer XP for different actions)

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gromnit

actually,  the only time we do so is on the rare occasions when we is serious... typical drop the "HA! Good Fun" too, just so as to be clear. most  recent example were some clown making light about his ancestors raping ours. some folks has commented on the fact that they recall us posting normal, but cannot recal more than a handful o' times in more than a decade.  

 

you is free to imagine different causes if you wish. it amuses us that you put such thought into the matter.

 

nevertheless, thanks again for proving our point 'bout efficacy o' schmuck detector function. illustrations is always useful.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Wow...bringing up rape and such is a pretty quick way to not be taken serious anymore....doubt it brings home the point very well either.

Edited August 29, 2014 by GreyFox

[Gromnir]

 

actually,  the only time we do so is on the rare occasions when we is serious... typical drop the "HA! Good Fun" too, just so as to be clear. most  recent example were some clown making light about his ancestors raping ours. some folks has commented on the fact that they recall us posting normal, but cannot recal more than a handful o' times in more than a decade.  

 

you is free to imagine different causes if you wish. it amuses us that you put such thought into the matter.

 

nevertheless, thanks again for proving our point 'bout efficacy o' schmuck detector function. illustrations is always useful.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Np dude glad to be of help, I remember our times fondly in the boobplate discussion we had. My imagination must have went wild there.

 

if you ever thought we were serious 'bout b00b plate enough to make us drop character, you is indeed remembering with personal, if unrealistic fondness... am believing we posted pictures o' the usc cheerleaders in their sweaters in that thread... shows how "serious"  we were with our back to ropes in that discussion.

 

*chuckle*

 

in point o' fact, this thread could use some usc cheerleaders. would be just as relevant.

 

HA! Good Fun! 

[Amentep]

I didn't vote because I don't care.

[Sarex]

if you ever thought we were serious 'bout b00b plate enough to make us drop character, you is indeed remembering with personal, if unrealistic fondness... am believing we posted pictures o' the usc cheerleaders in their sweaters in that thread... shows how "serious"  we were with our back to ropes in that discussion.

 

*chuckle*

 

in point o' fact, this thread could use some usc cheerleaders. would be just as relevant.

 

HA! Good Fun! 

 

Wrong thread orc boy, try the #77 art update.

 

edit:#77

 

I didn't vote because I don't care.

 

You lie, you care enough to post that you don't care.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Sarex

[Gromnir]

I didn't vote because I don't care.

but do you care about usc cheerleaders? honestly, the last few years has seemed like a bit o' a drop off... the ucla squad mighta' been superior.

 

sadly for Gromnir, Cal cheerleaders is rare amongst the nation's best, and the UCI/UCSB (our other alma maters) might not even current have cheerleaders. sad.

 

 

 

sarex is all over the place

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66146-update-77-art-in-alpha/?p=1445520

 

can see our seriousness.

 

oh, wait, you is necro-posting over some imagined grudge from a few months ago? how cute.

 

 

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited August 29, 2014 by Gromnir