The General Combat Thread

[Mayama]

 

As I wrote in the game di

 

It's a bit early but I'm starting to get the hang of it. The first couple of fights was 'WTF is going on??', I found it quite overwhelming really, I couldn't see what was going on and found it confusing.

 

I've been using pause more to slow things down and move around and use abilities, but I never really feel confident that my party is powerful enough to win a combat.

 

I'm playing as a ranger, I agree with the need for a companion portrait. Also, are they supposed to have or will have any abilities? Or just attack?

 

I'm finding the wizard and priest not that useful so far, I keep looking at all the spells and don't really see anything that I want to use all the time. 

 

It also looks more boring than I thought it would be, in Knights of the Old Republic the characters had animations that looked like 2 people were actually fighting each other, not 2 people that are just swinging at air which happens to be filled with someone. Is something like that possible in this game?

 

Read the spells and after some fights you will find out that you can stomp through any encounter in the beta with a fighter + priest. Or a tank + buffer in general. The game is super easy right now. 

 

Some of the mage ones do look reasonably powerful, but they all say things like 'will incinerate anyone in it's path', with everyone mashed up together in undecipherable melees I don't want to rely on AoE attacks that hurt my guys too!

 

I'll look into them more deeply, but I kinda just want 'heal 1 party member', 'heal group of party members' and 'increase attack etc' from my priest, not a whole bunch that do super specific things that I don't know how will help. 

 

I will have more attempts to get into it but my early impressions are that I'm not quite enjoying it as perhaps I could have. I admit it might be partly to me not perhaps committing to learning how everything works, but I feel like I have to try harder as a player to work out what is going on more than what I'm used to

 

I actually thought that its really really shallow and dump myself bevor I dived a little bit deeper into it. Now I think that it only needs tuning and readability. The enemy AI also needs alot of work. Also stamina = HP, for example consecrated ground or restore moderate stamina are big aoe heals.

[Lioness]

More feedback from the battles. Sometimes I don't know wtf it happens.

I think it's very important to add different animations for different races and weapons that are being use. I mean... The game needs more feeling of diversity.

Right now everything is so flat, sometimes I can't identify my characters in battle or wtf are they doing. It doesn't feel strategy... Looks more like a mess.

 

I agree with this.

 

My issues are:

 

- Finding the right setting for auto-pause: Some settings cause it to pause too often, and I have no idea whether they characters need new orders so fast since last pause,... or it pauses too rarely leaving the character idly staring into the blue. Ideally I would like an auto-pause configuration where I don't have to pause manually at all (if I hit pause, right after an auto-pause triggered, I end up un-pausing instead). Maybe a pause and centre on an is idle character.

 

- The combat log, is too obscure ( "Lioness hit Spider for 0.0"/"Lioness killed Spider", 0.0 damage ? did I sneeze on it ?), too short and the window too small; only a couple of entries at a time when scrolling.

 

- Some feedback as to who is engaged to whom would be useful

 

- The ability to queue 3 or so actions would be grand (KOTOR-like), make an auto pause only when queue is empty... So I can get a breather and only focus on positioning the Wizard ideally so his cone  only hits enemies.

 

- Scriptable AI for companions would be nice. Setting up threshold for when the priest needs to heal, setting up the ranged character to shoot the most injured enemy when he has no other specific orders etc...

 

The combat has huge potential, I love the characters abilities spells, the challenge, and the fact that I have to apply tactics and be aware on the team members and the enemies strength and weaknesses to win,... I just feel the game doesn't give me the tools to achieve such tight control.

 

TL;DR: I feel like I am fighting the gain control of the party's actions more than fighting the enemies most of the time.

[PrimeJunta]

It also looks more boring than I thought it would be, in Knights of the Old Republic the characters had animations that looked like 2 people were actually fighting each other, not 2 people that are just swinging at air which happens to be filled with someone. Is something like that possible in this game?

 

Not possible.

 

KOTOR basically only had swords -- single-bladed, double-bladed, and dual-wield. The enemies were either monstrous or humanoid. You only got the dueling field between two humanoids, so you only needed six animation series (single/single, single/double, single/dual, double/double, double/dual, and dual/dual) to get that feel. You could basically ignore monsters and just use the half of the animation sequence the human fighting it was using; it would be whiffier but nobody would notice.

 

P:E has a huge selection of weapons of different types (small, medium, large, reach, with/without shield, dual-wielded), and at least four different size creatures that wield them (small, medium, large). That means they'd have to animate way, way, WAY more combinations. 

 

Add to that the fact that KOTOR's animation budget must have been MUCH higher than P:E's, and it ought to be obvious that this isn't happening. Same thing with the requests for special animations for different races etc. That's not really what this game is about.

[Kiel29]

I feel like have not even scripts, but just the basic 'attack stuff you see' AI is going to make a huge difference. Once that is in, and people are used to the system, the combat will feel much less difficult.

 

I'm worried that people saw Adam get wiped twice in the demos and got tainted from that. That was the first that most of us saw of the really gritty details of the combat, and because he wasn't careful, made even the trash mobs looks overwhelming.

 

Getting used to the system and the auto-attack are huge.

[archangel979]

I think there is a problem in basics of combat in PoE. RTwP system is not suited for type of combat PoE will be giving us. The biggest advantage of RTwP is that is goes faster and smoother than Turn Based. Now if you unload a combat system, where everyone has many active combat abilities and trash mobs fights last too long, into a RTwP as a result you didn't gain anything special. 

 

It might as well been Turn Based as it is superior to RTwP in most ways for tactical combat of this scope that PoE is giving us. RTwP worked well in IE games because most character just attacked, few buffed and only mages were high maintenance. Now, by what I seen it is a slogfest and it is more suited for Turn Based. 

 

Don't mistake me, I am happy to try something different with PoE although I have my reservations if it is going to be as fun as IE games combat was. 

Edited August 21, 2014 by archangel979

[Lioness]

It might as well been Turn Based as it is superior to RTwP in most ways for tactical combat of this scope that PoE is giving us. RTwP worked well in IE games because most character just attacked, few buffed and only mages were high maintenance. Now, by what I seen it is a slogfest and it is more suited for Turn Based. 

 

Don't mistake me, I am happy to try something different with PoE although I have my reservations if it is going to be as fun as IE games combat was. 

I agree 100%. The only reason I did not suggest TB in my feedback is that it is quite unrealistic at this stage to get it implemented (The ideal would be like FOT:BOS, where you can swap between TB and RT, on the fly iirc).

[archangel979]

Yea, it is unrealistic to expect turn based to be added in any form or way, but maybe they could implement more passive abilities into different classes so people have a choice to make low maintenance characters and play the game more suited for RTwP. 

 

PoE is loosely based on 4e D&D, but that system is for Pen and Paper which is turn based and has way less combat than PoE (or IE games). 

[Mayama]

Yea, it is unrealistic to expect turn based to be added in any form or way, but maybe they could implement more passive abilities into different classes so people have a choice to make low maintenance characters and play the game more suited for RTwP. 

 

PoE is loosely based on 4e D&D, but that system is for Pen and Paper which is turn based and has way less combat than PoE (or IE games). 

 

Right now we dont know how much maintance you have to do in every fight. You can basicaly steamrole most encounters easily without using a single spell if you know how to tank (well send the most durable first). The premade fighter has already 2 passive abilites that make him a formidable, zero maintance skill, tank.

[Kiel29]

On the topic of firearms, I'm conflicted. They are massively powerful, downing things super quick. But then given the lore, why shouldn't they be? The time frame is such that guns really were gonna just blow people away.

 

I think a good balance might to be to make the reload time for guns take a little longer? Even just slowing down the animation they already have would be fine.

[Corto81]

At this point, I can't say I found it enjoayble:

 

- it was too "bursty", too fast

- animations are pretty weak IMO

- spell animations are even weaker

- general lack of feedback is frustrating

- stealth is group-based, unless I'm missing something? that's just weird

- characters stand to close to each other in melee

- health/stamina mechanic is just... Why? Why not just Health and keep it clean and simple?

 

 

There are other issues, but that's mostly because the game's not finished:

-  half the stuff is bugged and unfinished (mages and cleric not being able to cast etc. - this isn't critizing, it'll obviously be working once the game is out, rather an explanation to why my experience has been poor with combat)

Edited August 21, 2014 by Corto81

[Mayama]

 

- health/stamina mechanic is just... Why? Why not just Health and keep and clean and simple?

 

 

I thought the same when I started to play but it is actually quite good. Its basicaly a way to avoid the anoying "camping after each fight" problem BG had.

[The Loyal Nub]

I am still finding combat to be the weakest part of the game. I have to add my voice to the folks here who say they cannot tell what is going on. I see hostile npc's fall to my party but I can never see the killing blow. It's my chars hacking away super fast and then the fight is over and it's very unsatisfactory. It doesn't help PoE that the other game I am currently playing a heck of a lot of is D:OS and the combat in that is just miles better (at the moment). I like that I can see what it going on a bit better and I can see that final hit that brings the foe down. I think this game will ultimately have the better story and more depth but I worry it will fall short in the combat.

[Waywocket]

 

 

- health/stamina mechanic is just... Why? Why not just Health and keep and clean and simple?

 

 

I thought the same when I started to play but it is actually quite good. Its basicaly a way to avoid the anoying "camping after each fight" problem BG had.

 

As it stands, it seems the result is largely the opposite. In BG you could heal the most injured party member so that everyone ended up needing to rest at around the same time. I typically went until all my characters were complaining about fatigue, and often far longer, between rests. If anything the silly thing was the fact that you could easily go without resting for several days. Here you need to rest as soon as one member is low on health, so resting ends up being more frequent. That isn't per se a bad thing, but it doesn't combo well with the restrictions added to discourage resting.

[Lioness]

On the topic of firearms, I'm conflicted. They are massively powerful, downing things super quick.

 

They can keep the firearm damage but increase the reloading time. A muzzle loaded musket took 20s for a very highly skilled soldier to load/aim/fire,... more than twice that for some untrained person. He is also very vulnerable while doing so.  

 

A more realistic way for firearms in this setting is start the fight with a loaded gun, shoot it, then equip some other weapon and go at it from there.

[Sensuki]

It is a bad thing as it's a really short adventuring day.

 

Reducing the amount of Health damage that you take per hit (currently 1:4 or 25%) is a way to make Health more of an actual daily resource. Currently you can do a few encounters, have no health left and you've still got pretty much all of your daily resources remaining.

 

Arbalests and Arquebuses are WTFPWNAGE atm.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Sensuki

[farleybear]

Main issues that are hindering my enjoyment of combat in it's current iteration:  

 

- Melee blobs. When I have multiple characters engaged in melee I struggle to know just wtf is going on.

- Seems like there's a general lack of feedback (EDIT - combat feedback)

- Combat speed - normal feels too fast, slow too slow. Why not just have a slider?

- Mage AoE spells - I never use them because most of my party is always engaged in melee and would get hit with the effects     

- RTwP - Yes, I know that this isn't going to change and I will learn to live with it. It's just that I find there's so many abilities for each character that at the moment I find myself I find pausing so often to sort out who's doing what that it may as well be TB. I am still learning the combat system so maybe that's it. I'm currently playing through BG and ToEE, the combat in PoE feels higher maintenance than BG and I enjoy the combat in ToEE more than I do PoE. I can't help but feel that I would having a better experience if PoE was TB.

 

My post seems overly negative and that's not at all how I see PoE. From the limited time I've played the game I can already see that there's so much potential here for it to be a great game. I'm sure that by release we'll be playing a completely different animal.

Edited August 21, 2014 by farleybear

[Auxilius]

Well, I certainly suck at this game.

I died the first time I met the first enemies.

Then, my party was wiped out on  my second try. I could only beat the giant bugs thanks to standing around at the other side of the map, reviving them again and again.

And someone died for absolutely no reason since everyone saw their health depleted many times but only this one croaked.

 

I thought there was no permanent death, except for the hero on Ironman Mode.

 

If anything, it showed me my Ironman run will be my second run, even if it tends to reduce the fun, expectation and feeling of adventure.

I'm gonna play XCOM.

[Linkamus]

One of the awesome features of the BG:EE series is that they've added each character's current action/command onto their portrait. This is such a great feature, because you can look at your portraits, and instantly know what all of your characters are doing (Or not doing!).

 

I know in PoE currently you can see a vague representation of your character's action above his/her head in the form of a generic sword, or a spell, but I really think it would be sweet if BG:EE's feature was implemented in PoE, so you could see exactly what your characters are doing or what they have been commanded to do without having to figure out who is who on the battlefield (Sometimes it's hard to quickly discern what is what on the battlefield, which is why being able to look at the portraits is so important).

 

Here's what it looks like in BG:EE:

 

 

Here is a crude mock up of what it could look like in PoE:

 

 

From the above image, just glancing at that I know the following information:

 

My archer is actively shooting at 'something'.

My fighter is actively attacking 'something'.

My rogue is doing *nothing* <--- Good to know!

My priest is casting a heal, or is going to cast a heal.

My wizard is about to cast rolling flame.

 

Please consider implementing this feature, or some kind of variant.

 

What do you all think?

 

Thanks,

Edited August 21, 2014 by Linkamus

[Cabamacadaf]

I agree, something like this would be nice to have.

[Rillifane]

+1. There should be more trivial info on what the characters are doing. Also the casting animation and chanting. 

[Waywocket]

That sounds really good - can't think of a single downside to this and it would really help in knowing exactly when casting has finished (or started, for that matter).

[Osvir]

My post is just a directional post. Here's two relevant "doors" (links/topics):
- http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/67489-the-general-suggestions-thread/

- http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/67498-the-general-combat-thread/

Edited August 21, 2014 by Osvir

[AdaMusic]

It is a good idea. Only downside is that it hides the portrait abit.

[archangel979]

+1. There should be more trivial info on what the characters are doing. Also the casting animation and chanting.

casting animations and sounds ask for a slower default game speed as currently everything is attacking fast, casting fast and moving fast.

[Cabamacadaf]

It is a good idea. Only downside is that it hides the portrait abit.

They could easily do it so it doesn't cover the portrait.