Puzzles in crpgs

[Hiro Protagonist II]

I was thinking about some of the puzzles in the IE games that seems to work for me and some that were an absolute chore. I really enjoyed the puzzles in the Baldurs Gate series. The ones I didn't enjoy was the Fellwood in IWD2.    While the Fellwood does sound kind of cool in a pnp game, it didn't translate well in the finished game.

 

What puzzles did you enjoy in the IE games or just crpgs in general? And what puzzles didn't you like?

[Leferd]

I don't like any puzzles where you have to step in certain blocks just so, in order to activate the whatchamacallums. If your pixels are off just so much, it won't work. Leads to frustration more than anything.

[Ragniz]

Puzzles in IE were always fine for me in my first playthrough but after that they become a chore.

But yeah, Fellwood was a bitch if you didn't have a ranger for the extra dialogue

[Lioness]

My issues with puzzles is most often the breaking of immersion. As in: Why did the architect or builders of this mansion decide it was a brilliant idea to have a pressure plate puzzle between the living room and the diner ?

[Silent Winter]

^yep - and why is the lever to open the door on the other side of the mansion?

 

It makes some sense in a tomb that's trying to discourage thieves, not so much in a house.

Unless the bad-guys just set up a trap because they feared intruders, then it's ok.

 

Puzzles I enjoyed - ones like finding the helm and cloak of balduran in BG, needed to talk to some people, kill a few things, work out the destination (or just talk to everyone everywhere).

Some of the spellhold puzzles, first time (I like riddles)

Temple of Aumanautor, or whatever his name was, north of Imnesvale - needed to find the clues by adventuring, then go back and get the light-gems.  At least first time.

Extended illithium quest from Unfinished Business - again, first time.

 

Problem with many of these is that they become tedious on 4th or 5th playthrough - you already know where to go and what to do so it becomes like an elongated fed-ex quest with killing.  But I can't think of any puzzles that don't become repetitious after long.  In an action game maybe because it's a test of skill too, but not an rpg.

Suggestions before to have some semi-random elements to quests (location and even identity of item/npc etc varied, given different riddles from a pool) is a good one but probably outside the budget.

[Klixen]

I'm afraid I have to agree with the overall sentiments here, I'm not a big fan of puzzles either. So I'd really prefer not to have puzzles in my RPG!

 

If I wanted puzzles I'd play an adventure game!

[artyom]

Puzzles are fun IRL, but not always when playing smth like BG2.

 

They either take 20+ minutes of your precious playing time by making you try and solve the puzzle, or more likely you give up and start saving/reloading or googling the answer (the latter takes less time than the former)

 

altho some of the BG2 puzzles were quiete memorable ( such as "what do rich ppl want, poor ppl have,... etc" or the circus tent puzzle on how old the prince and princess will be )

[Kjaamor]

<3 <3 <3 The Prince and the Princess <3 <3 <3

[kangaxxter]

I loved the Fellwood in IWD2. It actually felt like adventuring trying to navigate the forest. You could use a Character with Wilderness Lore to show you which way was the right way, so it was a puzzle that actually gave some nod to those out-of-combat skills besides diplomacy, persuade and bluff.

[Doppelschwert]

I actually can't think of any puzzle in the IE games I didnt't like, but I also have forgotten what the fellwood was all about. In general, I like riddles like the ones in spellhold and mathy stuff.

 

In the coven in mask of the betrayer, there is a guy that plays 'hells' with you, which is basically the boardgame 'mastermind'.

I'm somehow torn on this one. I hated it the first couple times I played the game, but the last time I devised an algorithm to always win against that bastard. Devising the algorithm took some time (turns out you can easily look up algorithms for mastermind, which I didn't do and didn't know about back then) so it detracted from the game for some time, but then I felt really smug about it when I cashed in against the npc, which was totally worth it.

[Sondai]

I like riddles and lore questions OK.

 

Tile/rune puzzles are OK if they are easy and are mostly there for atmosphere -- like in a ruin.

(It makes sense that you can't just stroll in the door, per se.)

 

I don't like anything that has a high probablity of requiring Google.

and I loathe searching for 3-px size buttons.

 

I share the mindset that most puzzles break immersion; when I want a brain-buster I play a strategy game.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Sondai

[5anitybane]

I enjoy puzzles if they're meaningful, that is, tied into the lore and to serve a purpose.  For example, a lock mechanism with pressure plates to protect an ancient vault, or riddles that lead to an otherwise hidden location with something amazing in either lore or actual item.  Throwing a random puzzle in to cross a river or something is, however, random and serves no purpose, so it's those I dislike.  Luckily I have great faith in Obsidian based on their prior work, so I know we've nothing to worry about with PoE, .

[Caerdon]

I really only like puzzles when they make sense. Unfortunately they very rarely do.

 

While PoE looks awesome in so many ways, the floor tile trap puzzle in the first dungeon is really stupid. This is accentuated by the fact that it's only an obstacle because of engine limitations: in reality anyone could bypass that trap by just walking along one of the ledges on either side of it, and you could easily jump over at least one tile if necessary.

[DCParry]

My issues with puzzles is most often the breaking of immersion. As in: Why did the architect or builders of this mansion decide it was a brilliant idea to have a pressure plate puzzle between the living room and the diner ?

 

Yes, my wife is getting annoyed because we are going through children like crazy. Just the other day, another one feel victim to the pit trap in front of the refrigerator.  I mean, if they can't remember to check for traps before getting their juice, how are they ever going to survive their o-level exams. In the end, I feel it really is there own fault. 

[Zansatsu]

I don't mind puzzles to a point. I don't play RPG's to slog through complicated puzzles that require hours thought, nor do Iike busy work of simple pointless puzzles. So if they strike a good balance and my progression isn't blocked by some crazy elaborate problem, I'll be fine.

[NWN_babaYaga]

I realy like puzzles because they make you think about stuff. Combining objects or using levers in a specific way etc. are a welcome change when combat and dialogue makes 100 % of solving problems. An adventure without puzzles and riddles is leaving out a great option imo. What i dont like are puzzles where you think ok.... this stuff makes no sense and is just there to make you look stupid!

[Messier-31]

I am puzzled.

 

It depends on the type of the puzzle, because some can be a real pain in the neck.

 

This is really puzzling.

[LGMAlpha]

I don't care for puzzles.

[neo6874]

I really only like puzzles when they make sense. Unfortunately they very rarely do.

 

While PoE looks awesome in so many ways, the floor tile trap puzzle in the first dungeon is really stupid. This is accentuated by the fact that it's only an obstacle because of engine limitations: in reality anyone could bypass that trap by just walking along one of the ledges on either side of it, and you could easily jump over at least one tile if necessary.

Which would require balance checks, lest you fall over the cliff to your doom, or onto the tiles themselves.

 

Assuming a "typical" railing, it'll be 6" wide at the most ... so, (D&D) DC is 15 (assuming no other obstructions, e.g. slippery, or loose stones, etc.). L1 character who didn't take any ranks will have a "fun" time making that (even a DEX=18 character still has a 50% fail chance).

[5anitybane]

I don't care for puzzles.

 

Do you have a specific reason you could mention?  I'm curious because the statement is so vague, .

[Caerdon]

 

I really only like puzzles when they make sense. Unfortunately they very rarely do.

 

While PoE looks awesome in so many ways, the floor tile trap puzzle in the first dungeon is really stupid. This is accentuated by the fact that it's only an obstacle because of engine limitations: in reality anyone could bypass that trap by just walking along one of the ledges on either side of it, and you could easily jump over at least one tile if necessary.

Which would require balance checks, lest you fall over the cliff to your doom, or onto the tiles themselves.

 

Assuming a "typical" railing, it'll be 6" wide at the most ... so, (D&D) DC is 15 (assuming no other obstructions, e.g. slippery, or loose stones, etc.). L1 character who didn't take any ranks will have a "fun" time making that (even a DEX=18 character still has a 50% fail chance).

 

 

What does D&D have to do with any of this? Just look at the trap, those railings are wider than the player characters' hips. Bypassing that trap would be trivially easy in real life.

[Hassat Hunter]

If puzzles are missing, you'll definitely notice something is missing... RPG's are nothing without some puzzles to break up the monotony.

Also to check that nogging of people... RPG's are meant to inspire thinking.

 

Without puzzles it's quickly starts to revolt into just a dumb mindless hack&slash.

Can be fun, but not what I look for in an actual RPG.

[Sondai]

If puzzles are missing, you'll definitely notice something is missing... RPG's are nothing without some puzzles to break up the monotony.

Also to check that nogging of people... RPG's are meant to inspire thinking.

 

Without puzzles it's quickly starts to revolt into just a dumb mindless hack&slash.

Can be fun, but not what I look for in an actual RPG.

 

I think you over-generalize. If you took the puzzles out of KOTOR, say (and those I actually liked a lot) , it would still be a very good/excellent story and a game with significant depth (philosophically speaking) -- nothing hacky slashy about it.

 

Some mandatory puzzles (not the mini-games) in ME could easily be removed (one example) -- that terrible one where you have to turn core power on or spend 100 omni-gel -- and I think few would miss them.

 

There are many ways to inspire thought, one reason interactive fiction or story driven RPGs are so popular.

 

The thoughts tend to be about the broader issues of life (morality, religion, afterlife, consequences etc.) rather than some developer's idea of challange that in reality does nothing for the brain -- often involving some rudimentmentary, arcane and illogical system of activating items in order, for example.

 

Often puzzles feel like/are just filler for a game that is otherwise lacking (at least in the area it presents). There are a few exceptions like KOTOR, BG and NWN series, -- as well some really old games --but they are few.

 

Personally, I am intrigued by the Disposition system I read about. That is where I will find enjoyable mental challange -- should I keep my mouth shut or no -- me thinks, depending how far it is taken.

 

Again, I'm not against puzzles in small doses that fit the game's motif/lore and meet basic criteria as mentioned above.  Just don't break my immersion with some silly and sadistic challange that 7 people remotely like and understand (or more like guessed at). And this game isn't Legends of Grimrock -- or so I hope since I can play it when I want puzzles.

 

I do concede with your point that if there are no puzzles, it may feel like something is missing for some players. I just don't agree with the rest.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Sondai

[LGMAlpha]

 

I don't care for puzzles.

 

Do you have a specific reason you could mention?  I'm curious because the statement is so vague, .

 

Hard to say really. More than anything they seem out of place most of the time. They don't really add much to the story. 

[Panteleimon]

Finding the ingredients needed to have the antidote for Saskia made in The Witcher 2 ("where do I go, who do I talk to? Better start thinking, no compass to lead the way!") , the riddles in Dragon Age, the Peragus number sequences in KOTOR 2 along with pazaak and all the other great puzzles from that game, the endless ones in Baldur's Gate 1&2 and the Icewind Dales, the list goes on.  I enjoyed them all, some more than others.

 

And then there's a great set of puzzles, one of the most commonly neglected ones, which are social puzzles. What to say, how to say it, whom to say it to, when to say it, all while still staying true to the character you've set for yourself. And PoE doesn't take the easy way out, it seems. As Mr. Sawyer has said, just because you can qualify for a conversation option with a ability or personality check does not mean it's the right one and going to magically buy you out of the situation you're in.  You've got to actually put those social skills and judgement to the test.

 

Those are the puzzles that are rarest in games, I think.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Panteleimon