Spill your blasphemous opinions on CRPGs here

[Bartimaeus]

The vast majority of CRPGs would be better without any combat filler.

 

Unless the combat tends to require as much thought (or approaching to) as other parts of the game, (which, for example, Baldur's Gate sometimes fulfills, a lot of the times does not...while a game like Mass Effect almost never does [which is probably why I found the "combat" in all of them so hideously boring and repetitive), I agree.

 

@Drowsy Emperor: I can't help but disagree with you on how the genre has shifted being a step in the right direction. I wouldn't say it's the wrong direction, either, but just a different one. Maybe it's my love of numbers speaking, but I genuinely like how upfront and...in a way, clear, everything was with the Infinity Engine games. I didn't really want to use "clear", because in some ways, the IE games are extremely obtuse and unclear if you didn't already know the underlying mechanics, but if you did know them, then all the information that you'd ever want to determine exactly what your characters and their current capabilities are, and how those capabilities will affect the things you can do, and what these tiny incremental numbers will actually really mean when put into use, etc., were all served right up to you. With games like Mass Effect, I only have a vague idea of how everything is working - nothing is really "concrete", and I only have a basic grasp on how new changes will affect my capabilities, (more tends to be better, the formula goes, but how much better, I could never really say). For me, that's not a good thing - that perpetual "unknowledge" of the mechanics makes me not very interested or invested in them...which, when a very large portion of your stupid game is mired in, is not a good thing, in my opinion.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Bartimaeus

[AGX-17]

When I started thinking about cRPG's from an outsider's perspective I realized how ridiculous the genre is. Filled with mathematical and abstract nonsense to artificially separate a chaotic reality into a micro manageable segments.

If you were in the IT field, math, physics or the like, it wouldn't seem ridiculous based on the visibility of mathematical functions. Math is the method of understanding the universe. There's no pre-existing chaos in the non-reality of a game, because it was all crafted by human minds. It's real reality that is chaotic, and math is the ultimate means of quantifying it. If you play a brofist brass-balls spess muhreen shooter, there's math going on unseen for every action you make. Every shot made is a vector; the vector is defined by the numbers representing the player's location and direction in the 3D geometric space (also maths.) One of the differences between rpgs and other genres is some/more of the math is revealed to the player.

Edited April 4, 2014 by AGX-17

[213374U]

Try playing with Sword Coast Stratagems - you might find the game a bit more difficult, even for some more minor encounters, like with Yuan-Ti mages, (hint: they're quite mean and dastardly in SCS, ). Not all, of course (because SCS mostly tries to stay fair/true to the game), but it definitely makes the game more interesting.

 

Stratagems is probably my #1 must have mod—the insta-hasted Amnian troopers shenanigans is one of the results. But even so, it does little to spice up repetitive, generic encounters because of their simple, homogeneous design; a pack of wraiths and shadow fiends is still filler content despite the restored P&P abilities they get, I just need to enrage Korgan before engaging them to prevent level drain, and keep everyone else out of their sight. Caster fights are much more interesting though, and definitely increase the difficulty of certain encounters, bringing them up to what one would expect from, say, a 18th level Conjurer. But those are encounters that were already plot-related and interesting in their own right, not the generic mob packs I was rather referring to.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

When I started thinking about cRPG's from an outsider's perspective I realized how ridiculous the genre is. Filled with mathematical and abstract nonsense to artificially separate a chaotic reality into a micro manageable segments.

If you were in the IT field, math, physics or the like, it wouldn't seem ridiculous based on the visibility of mathematical functions. Math is the method of understanding the universe. There's no pre-existing chaos in the non-reality of a game, because it was all crafted by human minds. It's real reality that is chaotic, and math is the ultimate means of quantifying it. If you play a brofist brass-balls spess muhreen shooter, there's math going on unseen for every action you make. Every shot made is a vector; the vector is defined by the numbers representing the player's location and direction in the 3D geometric space (also maths.) One of the differences between rpgs and other genres is some/more of the math is revealed to the player.

 

 

Sure, games are all math, explicitly or implicitly. I believe the math, which is in older role playing games an explicit part of the gameplay experience, should be under the hood as they are in most games. 

 

 

The vast majority of CRPGs would be better without any combat filler.

 

Unless the combat tends to require as much thought (or approaching to) as other parts of the game, (which, for example, Baldur's Gate sometimes fulfills, a lot of the times does not...while a game like Mass Effect almost never does [which is probably why I found the "combat" in all of them so hideously boring and repetitive), I agree.

 

@Drowsy Emperor: I can't help but disagree with you on how the genre has shifted being a step in the right direction. I wouldn't say it's the wrong direction, either, but just a different one. Maybe it's my love of numbers speaking, but I genuinely like how upfront and...in a way, clear, everything was with the Infinity Engine games. I didn't really want to use "clear", because in some ways, the IE games are extremely obtuse and unclear if you didn't already know the underlying mechanics, but if you did know them, then all the information that you'd ever want to determine exactly what your characters and their current capabilities are, and how those capabilities will affect the things you can do, and what these tiny incremental numbers will actually really mean when put into use, etc., were all served right up to you. With games like Mass Effect, I only have a vague idea of how everything is working - nothing is really "concrete", and I only have a basic grasp on how new changes will affect my capabilities, (more tends to be better, the formula goes, but how much better, I could never really say). For me, that's not a good thing - that perpetual "unknowledge" of the mechanics makes me not very interested or invested in them...which, when a very large portion of your stupid game is mired in, is not a good thing, in my opinion.

e d

 

I'm not going to deny that juggling the numbers used to be a huge part of the fun. In fact the fun was derived out of breaking the system as much as possible to get an advantage of some sort. But that sort of thinking has become a no-no now as the majority of players don't want that kind of investment in their game, where you have to learn the nuances of a system to play reasonably well - apart from the MMO crowd which is in a world of its own.

 

I'm also not saying the execution is in any way perfect - I found Mass Effect combat repetitive and boring, but most of  all superfluous on account of the depressingly easy difficulty level. Its a question of how the game communicates its functions to you, and if the feedback is good and the difficulty optimal but fair no player is going to mind a little trial and error.

 

The problem with games like Mass Effect and even the Witcher is that they're schizophrenic in nature. They're trying to be action adventures or shooters but they're not letting you play them as such. Mass Effect was a shooter in which shooting skills were next to irrelevant. The Witcher had all the features of a melee fighting system without requiring any actual melee combat skills (as in combo memorization and reflexes). It turns out you're playing with RPG mechanics that you cant quantify or fully grasp but the game says: "never mind, you don't have to understand them anyway to win". Of course you're going to feel stupid in the end because there's no thrill in it - you're just auto-piloting through it all to the next cut-scene.

 

 I was weaned on Unreal Tournament and Baldur's Gate II. The first made me break out in cold sweat with split second frags, dodges and frantic aiming - the second forced me to think and learn its system (my first DnD encounter). So ME was bullsh!t to me, I felt the game was playing itself and I was just a passive observer part of a pre-packaged deal with no room to get better, no learning curve to climb and no way to gimp system. Nothing interesting or memorable ever happened in an ME battle because the first one was just like the last one. Many battles in BGII could be barged through by a fireball or a haste spell, but there were plenty that made up for that, and in the end, there were more than a few stories to tell.

 

So, the point is - the problem is not so much that they chased the numbers from the RPG - its that they put nothing in their place. What I'm saying is that they didn't go far enough - the combat system must be appropriate to the genre you're making - if its action, it should be action and the old RPG tropes should be kept only insofar as they don't get in the way of making the game work. As long as its got a good story, choices to make, an interactive world that you can affect in crazy ways (very important) no one will mind. And the action, swordsplay better be good, otherwise what's the point of a great graphics and a third/first person camera - if the game can be played as if its on auto-attack.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Drowsy Emperor

[Valsuelm]

 

"Rogues are almost always implemented badly."

 

Rogues are almost always implemented correctly. I don'tg et this diea that b/c rogues are not as 'powerful' as WARRIORS or MAGIC USERSin battle that somehow they are done wrong. This idea that everything should be BALANCED and EQUAL is silly.

 

Rogues should not be able to, for the most part, be the equal of a warrior in a fight. That's just plain dumb.

I agree with this. I think my problem with rogues is that devs always try to make them as effective in combat as fighters, rather than giving them fun rogue stuff to do outside of combat. The Quest For Glory series has had the best class implementation in games IMO.

 

Indeed. And this is because the QFG was made before the asinine concept of 'must have class balance' permeated the minds of developers. A concept that has gone a long way towards dumbing down games in recent years, the homogenization of classes in games, and making them less interesting overall. The whiny posts on forums of 'zomg my warrior can't take that fireball spitting wizard' should have been and should be ignored.

 

I don't think the gems of yesteryear would ever have been made if their game designers paid as much heed as many designers today do to the plethora of retardism posted by players who frankly are just bad at the game and/or lack understanding of the mechanics on your average game forum these days.

Edited April 4, 2014 by Valsuelm

[Oner]

Indeed. And this is because the QFG was made before the asinine concept of 'must have class balance' permeated the minds of developers. A concept that has gone a long way towards dumbing down games in recent years, the homogenization of classes in games, and making them less interesting overall. The whiny posts on forums of 'zomg my warrior can't take that fireball spitting wizard' should have been ignored.

[Bartimaeus]

snip

 

 

Some of the first few games I ever played were Baldur's Gate, Age of Empires, Diablo, Quake III, and Counter-Strike - games that all defined their genres to some degree for a time. Suffice to say, I agree with everything you said.

[Drowsy Emperor]

It was good to be a PC gamer 1998-2001. Every year had a ton of groundbreaking titles. Its been mostly downhill ever since.

[Humanoid]

Subtract 10 from those numbers. :D

[rjshae]

 

When I started thinking about cRPG's from an outsider's perspective I realized how ridiculous the genre is. Filled with mathematical and abstract nonsense to artificially separate a chaotic reality into a micro manageable segments.

If you were in the IT field, math, physics or the like, it wouldn't seem ridiculous based on the visibility of mathematical functions. Math is the method of understanding the universe. There's no pre-existing chaos in the non-reality of a game, because it was all crafted by human minds. It's real reality that is chaotic, and math is the ultimate means of quantifying it. If you play a brofist brass-balls spess muhreen shooter, there's math going on unseen for every action you make. Every shot made is a vector; the vector is defined by the numbers representing the player's location and direction in the 3D geometric space (also maths.) One of the differences between rpgs and other genres is some/more of the math is revealed to the player.

 

Games can be NP complex, so in that sense they map mathematically to the real world.

[Valsuelm]

Subtract 10 from those numbers. :D

 

That was the first golden age of PC gaming, though I'd say it started sooner than 1988 it did end around '91.. The mid 90s was horrible overall for PC gaming, for a time the consoles really did almost exclusively have the better games. Unfortunately this time around, with the current dearth of good PC games there is also a dearth in good console games. My hope is that PoE and Torment represents a light at the end of the tunnel. or at least a bright reprieve in the darkness.

[Orogun01]

Not really a CRPG opinion but:

Tales of Symphonia is overrated and nowhere near being the best entry on the series.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Wisdom is a horrible idea to have as an attribute, and clerics who worship gods whose sole goal is to bring chaos and destruction to the world should not have Wisdom scores of 18 (or above 6-ish, for that matter).

[Nonek]

My p&p games did away with Wisdom and made Charisma the default ability of the Clergy, for the gathering of followers to the faith and pleas to their Deity, for the Demonic/Diabolic priesthoods that Charisma figured into their infernal bargaining. Wisdom is experience in my view, and I implemented Willpower in its place.

[Drowsy Emperor]

If we're going to discuss all the less-than-sensible parts of DnD and its clones we're going to be here a looong time.

[Orogun01]

If we're going to discuss all the less-than-sensible parts of DnD and its clones we're going to be here a looong time.

You have somewhere else you need to be?

[Drowsy Emperor]

Uh...sadly, no.

[Bryy]

Wisdom is a horrible idea to have as an attribute, and clerics who worship gods whose sole goal is to bring chaos and destruction to the world should not have Wisdom scores of 18 (or above 6-ish, for that matter).

I never really understood Wisdom. It's like DC saying Will is an emotion.

[Orogun01]

 

Wisdom is a horrible idea to have as an attribute, and clerics who worship gods whose sole goal is to bring chaos and destruction to the world should not have Wisdom scores of 18 (or above 6-ish, for that matter).

I never really understood Wisdom. It's like DC saying Will is an emotion.

 

It can be if you pass a Willpower check.

[Volourn]

You guys simply don't get how wisdom works in DnD espicially in regards to priests, godes, and the like.  Such ignorance is shameful when spekaing on topic.s I thoguht this was the 'blasphemous opinions' thread not the 'ignorant opinions' thread. L0L

[Bryy]

Oh, and here's probably the biggest blasphemous opinion of all:

 

I hope Pillars of Eternity is only as Old School as it needs to be.

[Volourn]

I wish it is hardcore but I don't see it happening. Obsidian doesn't have the ballz to make a full fledge TRUE hardcore rpg. I'm sure it'll be enjoyable but it won't even close to hardcore because Sawyer loathes hardcore gamers.

[tajerio]

I wish it is hardcore but I don't see it happening. Obsidian doesn't have the ballz to make a full fledge TRUE hardcore rpg. I'm sure it'll be enjoyable but it won't even close to hardcore because Sawyer loathes hardcore gamers.

 

It also won't be close to hardcore because Obsidian would like more than a couple score thousand people to play the game.  

[Orogun01]

 

I wish it is hardcore but I don't see it happening. Obsidian doesn't have the ballz to make a full fledge TRUE hardcore rpg. I'm sure it'll be enjoyable but it won't even close to hardcore because Sawyer loathes hardcore gamers.

 

It also won't be close to hardcore because Obsidian would like more than a couple score thousand people to play the game.  

 

I think you're being too kind, if it was hardcore it would be reduced to hundreds.

 

I really don't get people who like a grueling experience where the game mechanics work against you.

[Volourn]

You guys are ignorant. Hardcore doesn't mean = super hard and impossible. And, the lie that only 'hundreds' would play it is asanine with no basis in fact.

 

Of course, fi money is the goal, they don't need to make it 'hardcore' because all the 'hardcore' players are saps and will buy games no matter what so they don't need to cater to them.

Edited April 7, 2014 by Volourn