The Case for Romance.

[Hassat Hunter]

<Takes a look at most anti-romance replies>

 

<Suddenly realizes why the CRPG genre is in its current sad state of irrelevance and game starvation in the industry>

 

Why? BioWare is giving you all the romance-orgies you need, no?

If romance solves everything, why aren't you seeing them as bringing the best RPG's around out?

[khalil]

 

They really ARE deliberately keeping a CIA-like silence on PoE's story. Good for them. I love every kind of spoiler when it comes to an anticipated game....except when it comes to story plots.

And yay for that.

 

But apparently *some* people read into that as 'the game will be diablo, they don't care about story.'

Read the above... they care. They care a lot.

 

I have no doubt they cared when they made NWN2 as well.

Rocks fall, everyone dies.

It was better than Bioware's rubbish, but that's because bioware is rubbish all around.

Why? BioWare is giving you all the romance-orgies you need, no?

If romance solves everything, why aren't you seeing them as bringing the best RPG's around out?

I think the reason people like romance so much is because a lot of the time it's the closest thing you get to meaningful interaction with a companion. Remove romance from bg2, and all you have left is Jan Janson talking about that time he ascended to godhood.

That'd actually make a good litmus test for well written companions: if you remove the ability to romance your party members, do you still get to talk with them, and do they still get their own little character arcs?

If the answer is no, bioware gives you a job.

[Monte Carlo]

So there are Promancers... who don't like Bioware.

 

Wow. I've learnt something genuinely new today. Although the onoing, and binary hyperbole (no romance - all you are left with is garbage) is still irrelevant, annoying and patently untrue.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Beating the dead horse this long has made me care even less about romance in games. Ya'll need to talk about other ****.

[makryu]

 

<Takes a look at most anti-romance replies>

 

<Suddenly realizes why the CRPG genre is in its current sad state of irrelevance and game starvation in the industry>

 

Why? BioWare is giving you all the romance-orgies you need, no?

If romance solves everything, why aren't you seeing them as bringing the best RPG's around out?

 

 

    I'm not a Bioware fanboy, but I don't dismiss everything they made as rubbish. Much to the disdain of many here, I hold DAO in high regard, and I was able to have enough fun with most of their games. In a market as starved for CRPGs as the current one, their games are certainly better than having nothing to play.

    That said, I don't think romance alone would take the genre out of obscurity and irrelevance. My comment was a reference to the fact that the absurdly elitist attitude of most romance haters reflects on the genre as particularly niche, to the point that maybe even the developers stop caring to appease such a ravenous mob. I'm willing to bet that when PoE devs decided not to include romance in the game it must have been at least mentioned that to include romance itself would be a source of criticism since it possibly wouldn't ever be good enough to appease those same people. Between being criticized for not including romance and for including romance, they may not be willing to take risks, after all.

    The truth is that none of the games considered groundbreaking in their storytelling and mechanics in the last few years were CRPGs. That is a sad state of affairs, in my opinion, and I think narrowing what is acceptable inside the genre and dismissing everything else as crap doesn't help it.

[ManifestedISO]

Could we derail into making the case for properly indented paragraphs being appropriate or not. 

[Auxilius]

Sorry, but who cares? Even if the anti-whatchamacallit are raging loonies, it's only ONE (1!) point. It won't influence en the quality of the game in any way and their elitism won't spill elsewhere.

Besides, there is a difference between gamers and developers. Despite the success and the appeal for a large part of the gaming population, only Bioware went all-in with love interests. If the other didn't, I'm sure they have good reasons.

 

Oh, and no, you're wrong about Obs, it's not about criticism. Avellone said years ago he doesn't believe in romances in video games. Considering what happened when they tried, I'd say he's right.

 

At one point, I believe we should hire Stephenie Meyers and make her create a vampire-elf brothel DLC, where all the love matters are condensed for those who desire it. It wouldn't play a part with the story or the party and could be avoided if you're not willing to pay for that. This endless debate could finally stop.

[Doppelschwert]

At one point, I believe we should hire Stephenie Meyers and make her create a vampire-elf brothel DLC, where all the love matters are condensed for those who desire it. It wouldn't play a part with the story or the party and could be avoided if you're not willing to pay for that. This endless debate could finally stop.

 

I would pay for that being made so that I can not buy it afterwards and have an enjoyable game.

[Hassat Hunter]

I'm not a Bioware fanboy, but I don't dismiss everything they made as rubbish. Much to the disdain of many here, I hold DAO in high regard, and I was able to have enough fun with most of their games. In a market as starved for CRPGs as the current one, their games are certainly better than having nothing to play.

Odd, I think the majority here actually likes DA:O. I know I do.

But then came DA2, and ME3 (which I still think was a good game with a horrible end, which was miles better than ME2, the romance simulator).

DA:O had horrible characters though, but the rest saved it. ME's crew is slightly better, especially in ME1, but got gradually worse due to those "romances". Hence not being too privvy of them since I can actively see what it's inclusion and focus does on games.

That said, I don't think romance alone would take the genre out of obscurity and irrelevance.

You really want to save RPG's by making them known like BioWare games for it's sex. No thank you, then I rather stay "obscure", thank you very much. Popularity and aiming for highests crowd, lowest commidator (sp?) already did the RPG enough damage as is. Which you said so yourself too. Then why aim to go more that direct way.

IN FACT, you burn down the only company that goes back old school and away from how bad modern RPG's apparently are to you. It makes no sense. Why dislike modern games, then flame the dev making old-school games, because they decided not to include the "cool new thing"... It's like... I don't even know what it's like...

My comment was a reference to the fact that the absurdly elitist attitude of most romance haters reflects on the genre as particularly niche, to the point that maybe even the developers stop caring to appease such a ravenous mob.

Not taking in mind the obvious fact Obsidian is infact CATERING to us; In the form of Project Eternity/Pillars of Eternity. If the devs don't want to appease the ravenous mob, why make a game *just* for them modern graphic whore junkies with "awesome buttons" wont apprectiate?

Again, you seem to be rather lost here...

I'm willing to bet that when PoE devs decided not to include romance in the game it must have been at least mentioned that to include romance itself would be a source of criticism since it possibly wouldn't ever be good enough to appease those same people.

Nope, they didn't think it would reach their own self-set level of quality. Twist and turn all you want, that's the only truth there is. There's no conspiracy here. There's nothing we 'forced' them. They just don't believe they can do it themselves.

The truth is that none of the games considered groundbreaking in their storytelling and mechanics in the last few years were CRPGs.

Then again, they were just groundbreaking *IN THEIR OWN GENRE*. And usually still crap. BioShock had a good story? Don't make me LAUGH. But feel free to tell me which games you think in the recent years which were groundbreaking for story or mechanics...

Also there's the whole thing of if you have 70 fps, 20 rts, 5 adventure and 5 rpg, which one is more likely to groundbreak. Even if all 5 RPG do, if 6 FPS do, even being part of 70, it's still an overall larger number.

That is a sad state of affairs, in my opinion, and I think narrowing what is acceptable inside the genre and dismissing everything else as crap doesn't help it.

Making crap RPG's wont help either. And adding stuff for the sake of 'stuff' instead of having valid reasons makes that much more likely. And aside from outright BAD ideas, there can also be too many GOOD ideas; It's also known sometimes as 'content creep'

Which again can harm a game in the process. It's a delicate process.

 

And just hamfisting in something, be it romance, or something else, while being wildly out of place wont do good for RPG's, quite the contrary.

[Sabotin]

I don't think romances are a bad thing per se, but I do question their placement.

 

I think a romance requires a certain degree of emotional commitment, which can only be achieved through time and dedication and just plain compatibility. Without that it seems shallow or forced upon the player.

The thing is, while rpgs provide a good environment for it (what better way to bring two people together than epic adventures), they do not provide the right focus. In real life, when you're involved with someone it takes a major part of your time and thoughts. But rpgs are usually about other stuff in which case what I would consider a properly implemented romance would cannibalize on interactions with other characters and companions.  I think it would also make a markedly different experience for players that chose to partake in romances and those that didn't. And reading through all the strong opinions here just reinforces the thought.

I may just be guessing incorrectly, but I think in for example Mass Effect, the most popular romances were those that were (in the player's eyes) built throughout the whole 3 games (Liara, Tali,...)? With DA2 romances for example I felt that the game was pretty much requiring me to fall in love at first sight and then rush through it and forget about it...

 

One aspect that I can't explain though, I would think that open world games would be very receptive of romances. They're extremely long, with loads of goings on and usually lack focus of more linear counterparts. They accentuate the freedom of the players and their power to influence the world and its inhabitants.

[makryu]

Odd, I think the majority here actually likes DA:O. I know I do.

But then came DA2, and ME3 (which I still think was a good game with a horrible end, which was miles better than ME2, the romance simulator).

DA:O had horrible characters though, but the rest saved it. ME's crew is slightly better, especially in ME1, but got gradually worse due to those "romances". Hence not being too privvy of them since I can actively see what it's inclusion and focus does on games.

I've seen a number of people dismissing DA:O almost completely in these forums. Can't say if they're the majority, though. Can't agree with you that it had horrible characters overall, but it's off-topíc anyway.

 

 

You really want to save RPG's by making them known like BioWare games for it's sex. No thank you, then I rather stay "obscure", thank you very much. Popularity and aiming for highests crowd, lowest commidator (sp?) already did the RPG enough damage as is. Which you said so yourself too. Then why aim to go more that direct way.

IN FACT, you burn down the only company that goes back old school and away from how bad modern RPG's apparently are to you. It makes no sense. Why dislike modern games, then flame the dev making old-school games, because they decided not to include the "cool new thing"... It's like... I don't even know what it's like...

Making them known for their sex? WTF? Where did I say that? And flaming the dev? Really? By stating a disappointment over ONE of their decisions? Seriously, is that flaming now? Also, how is romance a "cool new thing", when it's been present for more than a decade?

 

At least I agree that they shouldn't aim for the lowest common denominator. But I disagree completely that inserting romances is "aiming for the lowest common denominator" at all.

 

 

Not taking in mind the obvious fact Obsidian is infact CATERING to us; In the form of Project Eternity/Pillars of Eternity. If the devs don't want to appease the ravenous mob, why make a game *just* for them modern graphic whore junkies with "awesome buttons" wont apprectiate?

Again, you seem to be rather lost here...

I think Obsidian catered to those who, for a lot of different reasons, had the IE games as reference for memorable gaming experiences. The ravenous mob is but a part of that demographic, which, whether you like it or not, is also composed by pro-romancers. Can't see where I'm lost here...

 

Then again, they were just groundbreaking *IN THEIR OWN GENRE*. And usually still crap. BioShock had a good story? Don't make me LAUGH. But feel free to tell me which games you think in the recent years which were groundbreaking for story or mechanics...

Also there's the whole thing of if you have 70 fps, 20 rts, 5 adventure and 5 rpg, which one is more likely to groundbreak. Even if all 5 RPG do, if 6 FPS do, even being part of 70, it's still an overall larger number.

So you believe almost anything that comes out is deserving of the trash can, even when it's considered ground breaking. Ok, can't argue with taste. The argument of the number of games coming out is only relevant to the extent that it demonstrates how irrelevant the genre is becoming for gaming as a whole. That's what I find sad, after all. Also, would you argue that a game with fantastic storytelling, for instance, can't be relevant for games outside its genre? Even mechanics can be cross-genre: just look at how widespread some classical RPG mechanics, such as XP and levels, have become.

You asked for examples: out of the top of my mind, I consider Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons and The Last of Us two games that presented something new in storytelling(both) and mechanics(Brothers).

 

Making crap RPG's wont help either. And adding stuff for the sake of 'stuff' instead of having valid reasons makes that much more likely. And aside from outright BAD ideas, there can also be too many GOOD ideas; It's also known sometimes as 'content creep'

Which again can harm a game in the process. It's a delicate process.

 

And just hamfisting in something, be it romance, or something else, while being wildly out of place wont do good for RPG's, quite the contrary.

I agree with adding stuff just for the sake of adding, and I never asked for romance to be hamfisted in the game. Lots of assumptions in there.

 

I have to admit, it's getting too tiresome to argue with people who seem to purposefully misread arguments according to their interests, when they address the ideas at all, that is. Yay for the romance haters! You're almost succeeding at making me no longer care!

[SqueakyCat]

Since Romance has been a constant companion in this forum for the last 17 months, I thought a proper send-off was in order.

 

In Memoriam of our fallen companion, Romance:

 

On 14 September 2012, the opening shot is fired and stylishly locked by Big Green.  It was a tiny glimpse into what lay ahead.  As the Kickstarter begins, sides are taken and skirmishes ensue between the factions.  Without leadership, the trolls gain the upper hand.

 

The first Poll thread appears and the leaders begin to emerge.  The Anti-faction is championed by Monte Carlo and TwinkieGorilla, the Pro-faction by BruceVC and The Merin.  Numerous threads begin to emerge, as well as more poll threads.  Suddenly, a hush comes over the battlefield when Metiman has visions of birdcages.  Only twelve days into the Kickstarter, a moratorium on Romance is put into effect.  Two weeks later, a new thread arises and Big Green decrees:  Only One Romance Thread May Exist In The Realm. 

 

Untethered by the restriction, the factions continue to spar in the first of The "Unofficial" P.E. Relationship/Romance threads and then the second.  A wiley soldier tried to circumvent Big Green's decree by taking the 'sexuality and mature content' path, but was quickly taken into custody by the local law, Tale.  Newbies entered the fray, but were escorted out with helpful advice about donning flame retardant suits. 

 

With the advent of the Unofficial P.E. Relationship/Romance Thread pt. 3, a Champion falls in battle.  The Merin was ensnared in a trap of his own words by the Anti-faction sleuth, Bos_hybrid. The Merin was never again seen in the kingdom, but left a heartfelt message to its inhabitants in his wake. There have been reported sightings of The Merin in his faraway homeland but nothing confirmed.

 

For seven months, the Relationship/Romance Thread IV brought about a time of uneasy peace between the factions.  Many returned to their homes knowing they could be recruited at a moments notice.

 

The 28th Romance thread arose on 4 September 2013 and was quickly redirected to the current thread at that time with Gorth's unequaled flare. 

 

On 11 February 2014, the Town Crier, C2B, brought news from King Sawyer and a call-to-arms was heard throughout the kingdom.  The Pro-faction, with one of its champions in self-imposed exile, looked to BruceVC for leadership.  NanoPaladin looked to science for the answers.

 

King Sawyer, in an attempt to quell the uprising, issues a formal Proclamation dashing forever the dream of finding love in PoE.

 

 

R.I.P. Romance

Edited March 1, 2014 by SqueakyCat

[ManifestedISO]

RIP ... pfft, more like romance in peace. You just spent an hour making a post that does nothing except compel the good guys to put flower stems into the barrels of your hate guns.  

[Doppelschwert]

R.I.P. Romance

 

 

Now that romance is dead, will you continue your tale with some kind of zombies as soon as a new thread emerges in the future?

[Valsuelm]

This subject is like

 

 

except less catchy.

[Hormalakh]

oh man! Thanks - I miss that show!

 

This thread continues to deliver the jokes.

 

Also, now I want a companion named "Romance." He's got multiple personality disorder, spends his time adventuring but not really getting the main point of adventuring (he stops to smell the flowers instead of fighting the dragon about to chomp him up) or suddenly going crazy humping every thing in sight (trees, sheep, people, houses, mechant carts, whatever). Then occasionally, he'll make a funny and all is well.

Edited March 2, 2014 by Hormalakh

[C2B]

But this doesn't change the fact that Obsidian has been involved in Romance implementations in the past that the vast bulk of promancers were happy with, so is it unreasonable to ask them to do it again?

They didn't do those, because they particulary wanted to.

Edited March 2, 2014 by C2B

[Hormalakh]

Has anyone on this thread seen the movie "Her"? I'd really like to get all your opinions on it from both sides. Pro-mancers and Anti-mancers. Necro-mancers can also respond if they wish, filthy degenerates.

[Doppelschwert]

Has anyone on this thread seen the movie "Her"? I'd really like to get all your opinions on it from both sides. Pro-mancers and Anti-mancers. Necro-mancers can also respond if they wish, filthy degenerates.

 

I haven't seen the film but just read a summary about it. I neither consider myself a pro- nor an anti-mancer, but my spontaneous response to what I just read is a genuine 'WTF'?

 

EDIT: It also somehow reminds me of the movie The Beast with a Million Backs from futurama.

Edited March 2, 2014 by Doppelschwert

[Whitefox789]

 

Has anyone on this thread seen the movie "Her"? I'd really like to get all your opinions on it from both sides. Pro-mancers and Anti-mancers. Necro-mancers can also respond if they wish, filthy degenerates.

 

I haven't seen the film but just read a summary about it. I neither consider myself a pro- nor an anti-mancer, but my spontaneous response to what I just read is a genuine 'WTF'?

 

EDIT: It also somehow reminds me of the movie The Beast with a Million Backs from futurama.

 

As a necromancer I am appalled by the plot of this movie a man falling in love with something that is comprised of nothing but ones and zeroes /s

 

Don't worry your reaction is genuine and I also have to say I do see a lot of the similarities between this and The Beast with a Billion Backs.

 

Though then again now that I think about the premise itself isn't really anything new...

Edited March 2, 2014 by Whitefox789

[AGX-17]

King Sawyer, in an attempt to quell the uprising, issues a formal Proclamation dashing forever the dream of finding love in PoE.

You say that as though romance would have been a given had His Majesty not made the Proclamation. It would not.

 

Just because you can try to get into Gannon's pants in NV doesn't mean He ever intended you to be able to.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Suddenly, a hush comes over the battlefield when Metiman has visions of birdcages. 

 

I decided to take Metiman's recommendation of watching Deadgirl on the weekend. Yeah, I can see where he's coming from. I'm sure there's an Insanity Wolf meme in there somewhere.

[Sir Chaox]

Beating the dead horse this long has made me care even less about romance in games. Ya'll need to talk about other ****.

 

The horse has been beaten so long and so hard, it has turned into a frothy, meat & bone soup.

[Lephys]

The horse has been beaten so long and so hard, it has turned into a frothy, meat & bone soup.

Now you've killed a whole 'nother horse and continue by beating it instead:

 

The "Omg guys, talking about romance is beating an extremely dead horse" horse.

 

The "I can't believe this thread is still going" posts might even possibly outweigh the actual romance discussion posts.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Lephys

[Sir Chaox]

 

The horse has been beaten so long and so hard, it has turned into a frothy, meat & bone soup.

Now you've killed a whole 'nother horse and continue by beating it instead:

 

The "Omg guys, talking about romance is beating an extremely dead horse" horse.

 

The "I can't believe this thread is still going" posts might even possibly outweigh the actual romance discussion posts.

 

 

My life's work has been fulfilled!

 

Seriously though, an actually unique addition to this thread is a rarity. But it is fun to read the bashing.