New stretch goals for companions and wilderness areas?

[forgottenlor]

 

The technology has advanced dramatically. The tools that Developers have to work with today are far more efficient and can do a lot more in a lot less time than what Bioware and Black Isle had to work with in 1999-2001. This leads to less man hours for every task, as well as less tasks outright. There's also the experience factor, and the fact that there's zero middle men to pay off (no publisher, no D&D licensing, no WotC licencing.) etc.

 

Adjusting for the cost of inflation is, obviously, a factor, but a mitigated one due to much of the above.

 

 

I agree with you on the licence and experience. I'm not sure I'd count the publisher in the costs of making a game, because normally the publisher gives the funds to make the game and in return takes the profits. The developers who are working under a publisher probably don't count the publisher under their costs. While not having a publisher means in the long run that Obsidian will profit immensely once the game in finished, it doesn't help them pay out salaries before development is finished.

As far as technology goes, I think this might be overrated. First, I think that Obsidian is not using the same technology as 15 years ago (they are using a different engine for example) and by using some older methods they might be actually spending more money than if using new technology. The Elder Scroll games (at least Oblivion onwards) for example do not include hand drawn scenery but randomly places scenery within certain parameters, meaning that hand painting landscapes are actually more work intensive and require more man hours. Also I think improvements in graphics and sound over the past 15 year will be incorporated into this game, so that no costs are saved there. The costs of employing 15 people over 2 years (what it looks like the game will now take) seems like the main cost of the game to me.

Edited December 26, 2013 by forgottenlor

[Stun]

I'm not sure how relevant Developer salaries are here. Unless Obsidian contracts all their devs on a 'per project' basis, their salaries will be the same whether they're assigned to work on Eternity or South Park, or any other game Obsidian is working on. In other words, money to pay their wages will be drawn from all Obsidian projects in general ie. Obsidian's total revenue, not just from what PoE's kickstarter generated.

 

However, there are some people working on PoE that ARE contracted specifically to work on the project. I imagine the costs to pay these people will come directly from the the $4 million they've raised to develop the game. (this might explain why they made George Zeits a stretch goal, for example.) Also there is some outsourcing going on. Those companies/studios will get paid from the $4 million as well.

 

As far as technology, It's not just engine. I'm talking about Software that allows 1 dev to do in 20 minutes today, what used to take 3 devs a day to do 15 years ago. That kind of technology allows a studio to really cut labor costs. There was a Project eternity Update discussing this a while back. I'll see if I can find it later.

Edited December 26, 2013 by Stun

[forgottenlor]

I'm not sure how relevant Developer salaries are here. Unless Obsidian contracts all their devs on a 'per project' basis, their salaries will be the same whether they're assigned to work on Eternity or South Park, or any other game Obsidian is working on. In other words, money to pay their wages will be drawn from all Obsidian projects in general ie. Obsidian's total revenue, not just from what PoE's kickstarter generated.

 

 

From what I understand they are very relevant. Developers with no projects have to lay people off. Salaries normally come from money forwarded by a publisher for a specific project. When that money dries up there is trouble. The kickstarter was like forwarding money for this project, which in turn guarenteed salaries for its duration. While salaries may be the same regardless of the project, if Obsidian is only working on one game, then they will not be able to afford as many employees as when they have two. Also consider that they have overhead for office space, cleaning, et. This all has to be paid regardless of how many projects they have and is subject to inflation. Consider the makers of Titan Quest. Though they had just finished a very successful project they could not get a new one funded and they had to let everyone go, which meant the end of that studio. I can also guarentee you as a former Californian native with family still there, that the cost of living in California is very high, and the salaries as well.

[Stun]

^You're not really rebutting anything here. Obsidian is working on more than one project. Developer salaries and studio overhead are drawn from the whole, not just the $4 million they got to make PoE.

[coffeetable]

Indeed. In fact, logic would dictate that creating a game like BG2 would actually be much cheaper today than what it cost to make it in 1999-2000 (which was about $5-6 million IIRC)

The BG2 postmortem quotes the original BG at 90 man-years of labour. The Double Fine documentary pegged a developer-year at ~$150k. So BG would cost - before factoring in modern development efficiencies like "not making your own engine" and "actual bug tracking" - $13.5 million in today's money.

 

I've never seen any figures for BG2, but considering the scope of the two games and the fact that environment art is the bottleneck, I'd be surprised if it were that much cheaper.

Edited December 26, 2013 by coffeetable

[Hassat Hunter]

I'm not sure how relevant Developer salaries are here. Unless Obsidian contracts all their devs on a 'per project' basis, their salaries will be the same whether they're assigned to work on Eternity or South Park, or any other game Obsidian is working on. In other words, money to pay their wages will be drawn from all Obsidian projects in general ie. Obsidian's total revenue, not just from what PoE's kickstarter generated.

 

However, there are some people working on PoE that ARE contracted specifically to work on the project. I imagine the costs to pay these people will come directly from the the $4 million they've raised to develop the game. (this might explain why they made George Zeits a stretch goal, for example.) Also there is some outsourcing going on. Those companies/studios will get paid from the $4 million as well.

 

As far as technology, It's not just engine. I'm talking about Software that allows 1 dev to do in 20 minutes today, what used to take 3 devs a day to do 15 years ago. That kind of technology allows a studio to really cut labor costs. There was a Project eternity Update discussing this a while back. I'll see if I can find it later.

No, no, no, no. They can't just use the funds given for another game for Project Eternity. I think the publishers for said games would be really REALLY pissed off at that, actually it might be borderline illegal.

The 4 million we paid is mainly for the salaries, for all involved, not just the external factors.

 

As for technology, it's not really that it's easier to make games than years ago. Look the manpower needed for Unreal Engine 4 games vs. Wolfenstein games. There's a lot more personal involved, and it takes a lot longer to create a single area. Same would be BG vs. PoE. For the modern technologies, with it's multiple special maps (in order to for example know elevation, or just for graphical effect). While some things become more efficient, more effective, even without going overboard, to make it 'modern' they need to do a lot more graphical and technical wise compared to the BG crew years ago.

 

So yes, it would depend on salleries, and the tech and engine taken do take more work than 15 years ago, mainly because it needs to look better (it doesn't need to me, but apparently a lot want a modern looking BG2). It looks phenominal of course, but yes, that result takes time to make, effort to make, many people to make.

[JadedWolf]

I could see about putting more money into the cause, if it meant more companions were added, and if it didn't add months and months of delay to the release date.

 

I like to play games like this through multiple times, and then having more companions to choose from is a big plus. Also, I always hate it when there's only that one priest to choose from, and her personality is totally opposed to that of my player character.

[forgottenlor]

^You're not really rebutting anything here. Obsidian is working on more than one project. Developer salaries and studio overhead are drawn from the whole, not just the $4 million they got to make PoE.

 

 

 

I'm simply saying with more funded projects you can have more workers and a more secure workplace. I'm also saying paying salaries require a steady flow of funding, so it is very relevant that Obsidian has two projects and not one (which is by the way more of less finished). Therefore I'm rebutting your statement that salaries may be irrelevant because of Stick of Truth.

Edited December 27, 2013 by forgottenlor

[Cubiq]

I like to play games like this through multiple times, and then having more companions to choose from is a big plus. Also, I always hate it when there's only that one priest to choose from, and her personality is totally opposed to that of my player character.

That will happen one way or another, because there are 9 companions currently planned and there are 11 classes.

The stretch goal that the developers proposed here, will be for the 3 extra companions that are missing the quota of 1 companion per class.

Meaning we will have only 1 companion for each class, even if we reach the stretch goal.

 

But there will be a way to generate a companion with any class you wish and add them to your party later in the game, however these generated companions will most likely have no personality.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Cubiq

[Co0n]

 

Also in their pcworld interview they say : "This game is going to be pretty darned big, but Baldur’s Gate II is huge.". Does it mean that Pillars of eternity will be smaller than Baldur's Gate 2 ?

That's how I read it. But really, he's not saying anything here. BG2 is freakishly massive. With the exception of maybe the Elder Scrolls, all games are going to be smaller than BG2.

 

Me, I just want good density. I'll take 2 wilderness areas filled with lots of stuff to do in them, vs. 4 wilderness areas where there's nothing to do but walk around, look at the scenery and maybe engage in a couple of fights.

 

 

BG1 for example was the complete opposite of that and this was exactly what the game made believable.

Even in a fantasyworld you dont stumble upon a dragon/troll/bandit every 5-10 meters once you are out of town.

This doesnt mean there should be empty areas, but a game that is as crowded as Skyrim is just not creating a believable feeling for me.

 

Finding awesome stuff in the wilds was always a huge feeling and made you get this sense of achievement. 

In Skyrim there is a Mine/Town/Dungeon every few steps and it gets more annoying than exciting.

In BG you always felt like really traveling the world, with everything that comes with it: lonelyness, fatigue, atmosphere, bandits, wild animals, etc.

 

conclusion:

As in BG1, I prefer to have more wilderness and less densitiy in exchange for quality content and storytelling.

finding new stuff ist just not exciting if you EXPECT it to be nearby.

[JadedWolf]

But there will be a way to generate a companion with any class you wish and add them to your party later in the game, however these generated companions will most likely have no personality.

 

 

I know, but that's really not my cup of tea. One of the reasons I never could get into the Icewind Dale series much.

 

I suppose at least classes should be a lot more flexible in the new system, which hopefully means we won't have to take anyone along we don't like just because we really need their class skills.

 

Still, three more companions would be worth it if you ask me. The more choice, the better.

[Wolfden]

I voted yes. The more options in the game, the more you will get involved into it. I will wait until Obsidian tells us what exactly they plan to add and how long it would take to put in the game. Any long delays and I would probably change my mind.

[Wolfden]

Does any one know when the final decision will be made to add more content?

[Cubiq]

No there has been no news.

[LuccA]

Does new stretch goals mean that will be opportunities for people who didn't know the game till the end of the kickstarter's term to become backers? xD 

[Silent Winter]

Does new stretch goals mean that will be opportunities for people who didn't know the game till the end of the kickstarter's term to become backers? xD 

You can become a backer right now - just go to the backer site, log-in and pledge money

http://eternity.obsidian.net/

[Cubiq]

i sort of wish i could upgrade my pledge.

Not extra addons, but the actual kickstarter rewards.

Right now you have to buy a completely new pledge.

Maybe they could allow pledge upgrades to be funneled in to the new stretch goals also, if they make them.

 

That would be nice.

[Zafir]

If it doesn't delay the game by a lot I don't see why not really.

 

i sort of wish i could upgrade my pledge.

Not extra addons, but the actual kickstarter rewards.

Right now you have to buy a completely new pledge.

Maybe they could allow pledge upgrades to be funneled in to the new stretch goals also, if they make them.

 

That would be nice.

 

I managed to upgrade my pledge when I first logged into the site and went through pledge management for the first time. Though it does seem like you can only upgrade at that point. Afterwards it seems like you're stuck.

[Silverfox]

I voted No.

 

I want more content too, but I want the game to be released far more than that.

 

The only exception would be chainmail bikinis.

[rjshae]

As in BG1, I prefer to have more wilderness and less densitiy in exchange for quality content and storytelling.

finding new stuff ist just not exciting if you EXPECT it to be nearby.

 

I agree with you.  But I'd like to also note that you can have high density across game time without having high density in space. That is, placing extra time-dependent events in a wilderness area can make it a richer experience and improve replayability while still providing a sense of openness. But you'd want to put most of those events in bottleneck-like locations so that the player is likely to run across them when traversing the map again.

 

The only exception would be chainmail bikinis.

 

...would be a fun easter egg. Maybe give them a bonus against gaze attacks.

Edited December 28, 2013 by rjshae

[Ignoramus]

No.

 I'm all for seeking separate funding for future expansion packs, but now I'd just rather have them focus on finishing the game, instead of adding non-essential things in it.

Edited December 29, 2013 by Ignoramus

[AndreaColombo]

I'm all for seeking separate funding for future expansion packs, but now I'd just rather have them focus on finishing the game, instead of adding non-essential things in it.

 

Whether more companions and wilderness areas are non-essential is moot, however. For some people they are quite essential.

 

I wouldn't mind the release date being delayed if that meant a bigger game with more joinable NPCs.

[Abel]

 

I'm all for seeking separate funding for future expansion packs, but now I'd just rather have them focus on finishing the game, instead of adding non-essential things in it.

 

Whether more companions and wilderness areas are non-essential is moot, however. For some people they are quite essential.

 

I wouldn't mind the release date being delayed if that meant a bigger game with more joinable NPCs.

 

 

 

Agree. It's subjective. For me, it's essential. For some others it's not.

[IRMA]

I am in favor of new wilderness only if it doesn't mean release date in 12-2014 or Q1/2015. Thats just sooo long

[evilmiera]

If it doesn't delay the game by a lot I don't see why not really.

 

i sort of wish i could upgrade my pledge.

Not extra addons, but the actual kickstarter rewards.

Right now you have to buy a completely new pledge.

Maybe they could allow pledge upgrades to be funneled in to the new stretch goals also, if they make them.

 

That would be nice.

 

I managed to upgrade my pledge when I first logged into the site and went through pledge management for the first time. Though it does seem like you can only upgrade at that point. Afterwards it seems like you're stuck.

I really hope there will be a way to upgrade pledges or at least add some stuff on. Not that I could offer TONS more money than the 180-ish dollars I already pledged but still. RSI have shown that pledge additions after a funding period can work, though it might be trickier in a non-MMO setting.