Update #63: Stronghold!

[Foxy]

Can't wait! Getting so excited about this game

[Ywerion]

  I am in lack of words (and breath) just from reading through all this sweetness. All I can do now is quote classic:

                                                                                                                                                           ,,Dude I think I just filled the cup."

                                                                                                                                                                 Jay

[Doomedpaladin]

Another option would be to make the stronghold only partially available on the initial playthrough. Have consecutive games be done from inheritors of your initial character's estate with more options available.

[Nonek]

I'm all for there being legions of consequences, penalties and bonuses, for those paths you choose to pursue or not so i'm happy that the Stronghold is optional and you will lose out on content if it's not taken advantage of. Too many games i'v eplayed lately have no real consequences because they're afraid of denying players content, or making choices count, i'm glad Eternity is moving away from this. Also makes a replay with a different character and choices all the more desirable.

 

Wonder if the messenger for the Stronghold could be some kind of soul bound to the place, to further re-inforce one of the gameworlds themes, a guardian spirit or something. One would think that would have no problem alerting the citadels master through some otherworldly means.

[mstark]

I'd prefer to have a regular messenger that can only reach me at particular times (for example while resting), rather than a soul magically relaying messages to me.

 

If a form of "instant messaging" is made available through souls, I believe that would have extreme ramifications on the social structure of the entire world, and wouldn't fit quite as snugly in the setting as one might think.

Edited September 4, 2013 by mstark

[Rozkurwiciel]

I have an idea. What if we could make use of certain parts of more powerful monsters to display them in our own museum?

 

E.g. We've dispatched group of trolls or witches. Having taken the skull of their leader we can put it on a display as a part of our monstorous collection available to be watched for a reasonable fee. That would be interesting way of making money and also would serve as a good game mechanics adding some monster hunting feel into the game. Also, for more evil characters perhaps we could be given opportunity to show off with the heads etc. of good characters we have killed during our 'adventures'. Give us a choice to either be sinister mother***, hero of the people or just a mere business-making adventurer. Note that probably making evil-likish museum will not bring us a lot of visitors and give us tremendous income but will rather serve as a magnet for all kinds of evil guys who may want to meet the guy who has managed to kill ABC in order to for example make a business?

 

And what about adding another galery to the game where we could display sets of weapons rather than sell them to merchants?

Does anybody want to make a comment on this?

[Mico Selva]

 

If you have cleared the dungeon and built a prison under your stronghold, then when you are fighting some of the named NPC’s in the game, you will be given an option to take them prisoner instead of killing them. 

This sounds great, and is another step in the right direction of not only replicating IE games formula, but improving on it. Thumbs up.

 

EDIT: Still no word about the game's final title. The natives might start to get restless soon.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Mico Selva

[teknoman2]

in the spoiler was my reaction after reading it and wiping my drool

fap-fap-fap-fap-fap-fap

 

[GeneralAtrox]

• Wealth. Don’t forget that by owning a stronghold, you also own all of the surrounding lands and impose a tax on all of the inhabitants. It will feel nice for a change to have someone recognize your high standing and give you the money that you so richly deserve.

 

I hope this is something which can't be exploited too easily, for example in the Fable series you could buy property and have the money rolling in within a few hours of play meaning questing and doing the mini-jobs for money wasn't necessary when going to the shop. Also the whole "leave it on overnight" could of easily been exploited (which I'm sure many people actually did).

 

I'm hoping that in very late game the party cap could be increased via stronghold upgrades for some extremely big quests/battles. Maybe use the whole party to fight the great ancient dragon?

 

 

• Adventures for idle companions. You will eventually have more companions than will fit in your party, so you will have leave some of them behind. While they are idling away at the stronghold, they can take part in their own adventures, earning additional experience for themselves and extra money, items and reputation bonuses for you!

 

 

I do love this, I really hope to see this dynamically used so then there's a chance you see one of your companions fighting through a dungeon or shopping in the local market/town. Maybe even see the idle members pair up together for an adventure, this would make the game feel more in-depth. 

Edited September 4, 2013 by GeneralAtrox

[mudd1]

Suggestion: The ability to gather not-particularly-valuable/sellable weapons and equipment to your stronghold to be melted down by your smithy(ies) and used to produce upgrades/repairs (iron gate and/or reinforced portcullis, instead of a simpler gate; defensive cannons/anti-siege armaments; invention-type technological/mechanical improvements to things, such as a drawbridge, crank elevator, etc.).

 

Why don't you just say that all you want is to forge yourself an Iron Throne?

[Nonek]

I'd prefer to have a regular messenger that can only reach me at particular times (for example while resting), rather than a soul magically relaying messages to me.

 

If a form of "instant messaging" is made available through souls, I believe that would have extreme ramifications on the social structure of the entire world, and wouldn't fit quite as snugly in the setting as one might think.

 

Well two ways of dealing with that come to mind:

 

1. This is unique to the stronghold, old soul manipulation of Aer Glanfath that we cannot fathom, and kind of morally objectionable to deny a soul its rightful place in the wheel of birth, death and rebirth.

 

2. Spirits are common and integral to the setting, like in King of Dragon Pass.

 

But as I say it's merely a suggestion, mainly to avoid instances of being weeks from home and yet still just in time to rush to the rescue. I'm fairly sure Mr Cain and company have allready formulated some viable method of communication.

[milczyciel]

<cut>

I agree with quite everything he wrote.

 

So, while I generally like the stronghold design, the theme sounds like you have to play a good guy if you want a useful stronghold.

 

Your first post and you've nailed it!

Nonetheless those are valid concerns and even if Tim's goal is different, the overall stronghold vibe is in fact kinda one (or rather two: prestige and security) dimensional.

 

Before I proceed though, there is a thing I have to admit:

I do not care much about a stronghold, most probably because I didn't like the execution of the idea in NW2 and DA:O Awakening. Sorry.

 

So, I have a lot of doubts about it and though I don't wish to repeat what others already told (or are doing it while I waste my time trying to sound legible) let me point three most important problems (for me that is): taxes, imprisonment and just how much obligatory all that stronghold business will be.

First of all taxes - the general idea of "the better you do, more money you get" is... flat. This may be an issue of mine, but from what I can see it works in the exactly opposite way. The worse it gets (in terms of economy, safety, overall country efficiency) the more taxes one have to pay. But I get it, it may be very subjective, background driven point of view. So if you decide to keep that idealistic execution of tax collecting I promise not to go mental

 

Secondly we have this imprisonment, and boy how many questions it rises. For example, how exactly does it work in legal terms of the game world. Surely you guys understand that imprisoning NPC is a very different thing than just killing him in (presumably) self defense. To keep it short let me use an example here: do you imagine holding Isaea Roenall back in BG2? That would mean far-reaching repercussions, and I do not only think about his family (wealthy, corrupted nobles). What about Athkatla law enforcement? What about whole bloody Amn whose law one would decide to disobey just by keeping that leech Isaea to toy with in a dungeon (wait... that sounds wrong).

...and just as I wrote this, I realized there probably IS a way out! Simply, use dungeons and imprisonment as a sophisticated way to turn "bad guys" over to authorities. That way you'll keep your "jailbreak, gain leverage, learn new things from them cookie" and explain to us "how the hell is it even working".

It may even stretch the jailbreak idea because said authorities may set your prisoner free (for so many reasons).

 

Last thing is something you just can't help, because no matter how optional or not the Stronghold will be, some people (could be me included) just won't be happy. If you'll keep it low profile, they'll still play it through, because an urge to do everything possible (sidequests? loot? werewolf head hanging over fireplace? I need them!) even if they do not care about having a castle in the first place. On the other hand, badly executed it will turn into chore even if you'll make obligatory, inherent part of the story and game world. So... scratch that one! Can't keep 'em all bloody bastards happy

 

Sorry if that sounds like a whining or nit picking, but as mentioned before, in past I've been disappointed by player's owned instance twice (not counting Bethesda's "housing" ideas) and I really hope you'll make me want to run ashamed after my first playthrough

Still, all considered I must admit it makes me wonder will You pull it out, as having an interesting, meaningful and impact leaving Stronghold in your game creates demand for a lot  of more or less foreseeable writing and scripting. Probably far more than I even imagine.

I'll keep my fingers crossed

[Failion]

I like to see a lot of back and forth reactivity with how the stronghold develops. It can get totally ruined by your decisions in the game. Say if you don't uphold your bargain with a powerful demon he teleports in your prison and wrecks your stronghold inside out. Something like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev5U8aERlyk

 

Lot of difficult decisions and events that frustrate and make the player think about a multitude of things stronghold, morals, currency at the same time make for a epic experience.

[Valorian]

The system is obviously sophisticated and complex. Good job!

 

 

But first,

 

 

I have to say that I believe the tax thing (and possibly people adventuring themselves and bringing you gold and stuff) is problematic. Could promote degeneration and I'm not being sarcastic.

 

You get tax money as time progresses, no? I explore the world and get money as I travel around (unless traveling around the world or resting doesn't fastforward time). Do you see the possibility for money aplenty and degeneration?

 

 

[Archmage Silver]

What can I say? I like everything about this update. That's about it!

[AwesomeOcelot]

Seeing Tim Cain always makes me smile. This sounds great, I'm really looking forward to defence and other responsibilities of the stronghold, that sounds way better than other RPGs take on strongholds/safehouses/homes which I found boring, gimmickey, and "gamey". I hope the stronghold isn't a necessity or overpowered though, I'd like it to be a trade off with risk/reward, I'm probably going to play Project Eternity many times, and I'd like to create characters that would be bad at leading a stronghold or wouldn't want to be tied to such a place.

[Gfted1]

The system is obviously sophisticated and complex. Good job!

 

 

But first,

 

 

I have to say that I believe the tax thing (and possibly people adventuring themselves and bringing you gold and stuff) is problematic. Could promote degeneration and I'm not being sarcastic.

 

You get tax money as time progresses, no? I explore the world and get money as I travel around (unless traveling around the world or resting doesn't fastforward time). Do you see the possibility for money aplenty and degeneration?

 

I don't think breaking the economy is a concern of theirs. Case in point, the bottomless inventory. When they created that they didn't feel that collecting everything to sell was degenerative, instead the walking back and forth to collect everything (due to bag capacity limitations) was degenerative. Go figure.

[Lastan]

I do hope that the stronghold doesn't end up making the game too easy for the player because of all the bonuses. I'm sure you guys have thought of all sorts of ways to preclude players from taking advantage of the stronghold to "cheese" through sections of the game and at the same not make the stronghold a must-have buff-zone for the higher difficulty challenges.

I don't think it'll make the game too easy. For one, you'll have to buy stuff to make it do certain things, and you'll have to earn that money first. And survive the inevitable raids and whatnot that'll rob you of your hard-earned money before you manage to save up. By the time you get certain upgrades, the bonus they provide won't be exactly meaningless, but definitely not as important as it would have been at lower levels, back when you started drooling over it.

 

Sure, I expect the bonuses to make a difference, but not more so than, say, magic items that you get to keep on the entire time.

And let's not forget about planning. The stronghold bonuses will be temporary, and it can be rather inconvenient if they run out just before you needed them...

[Sacred_Path]

If for the sake of balance making the stronghold mandatory is preferrable, I hope they do that. If good stronghold management makes the game easier, and therefore becomes critical on the higher difficulty settings, I'm all for that.

[Lastan]

First of all taxes - the general idea of "the better you do, more money you get" is... flat. This may be an issue of mine, but from what I can see it works in the exactly opposite way. The worse it gets (in terms of economy, safety, overall country efficiency) the more taxes one have to pay.

Not quite.

 

The worse the economy gets, the higher tax rate is needed to keep up with the ruler's demands even if they remain the same, but it's because the peasants you tax are much poorer.

 

Countries like Sweden, Finland, Norway... have rather high tax rates, yet they are safe, well-off, and rather efficient.

[Messier-31]

Great update, lots of good quality stuff going on and to do!

 

Yet, here's a thought: You have a stronghold, right? You need to hire guards, military, people like that to defend it. Why not hire more of them and let's say, oh I don't know, order them to "CHARGE!" into the world, the dungeons, the enemies on your way... basically the whole storyline! You just sit tight, chill out drinking wine and wait for the entire story to get sort out by itself. You have an army, let them do all the dangerous sh@# ! Why bother and risk getting yourself killed?

 

Ok, just kidding Adventurers simply do not roll this way - they always have to make stuff more complicated for themselves. Huzzah!

 

Wow, now I'm quoting myself - talking about selfishness, eh?

 

In regard to my previous statement: the more I think about it, I wonder. Really, an army of yours for dealing with your quests for you, running on errands and such. I know it would be silly, but a conformist character would give it a go, I guess. Anyhoo, I love the whole thing that come up with this update, but I hope npc's will not play the game for me. And one more thing about idle companion missions: someone wrote in a different thread, that it would be awesome to send the less liked companions on suicide missions - I think it would be a magnificent feature...

  Eager to play!

[Labadal]

 

 

(unless the stronghold completely replaces the player house, but I doubt that.)

I seriously hope that. If nothing else, getting both a house and then a stronghold in Act 1 would be sort of silly. Getting the house after you already have a stronghold would be equally silly.

 

 

This needs to be clarified because there are two stretch goals with different things. From this update today, it appears the player house is the stronghold.

 

I always took it as two different things.

 

 

Now that I read update 20 again, it can be read two ways. It appears the player house has been upgraded to a stronghold. I thought we all got a player house and if some people wanted to play a stronghold, the game gave you that option. Seems I read it incorrectly.

 

I always thought that $2.0 million meant a player house but if they reached $3.0 million, that would be upgraded to a stronghold. I could be wrong.

 

I like the ideas that are being suggested. It could be very fun and add replay value. It would be interesting to see all the encounters if you actually ignore to focus on the stronghold.

 

It is good that if you bother to invest in your stronghold, you will get different bonuses. It gives the player some incentive to actually care about this even if you don't really have a great interest in upgrading your home base.

 

When your companions come back from different adventures, it would be great if they told you about them. It wouldn't have to be super detailed, but they could just mention some stuff that went wrong, something unexpected that happened or tell you a story about some crazy beast they had to slay. Maybe if they go on enough adventures, the get some feats or something else that those in your party don't get.

[Vitek]

This sounds absolutely wonderful.

 

That's exactly (and more) what I expected from strongholds.

 

 

So, the most important question is: can you gloat over the prisoners?

"Fool! To think you thought you stood a chance against the great I in all his unparalleled majesty!"

"Fortunately I am as magnaminous as I am magnificent, and I have spared you for your crimes against my person...for the moment. Make no mistake! You suffer at my wondrous leisure!"

 

 

.....Please?

 

Do you realise that this is usualy how they ended up there?

Gloating over hero while hero was inventing way to defeat them and put them in prison.

 

Beware to not end in there instead. ;-)

[bjm123]

Looks really awsome and detailed just what I was hoping for when the stronghold was mentioned.

 

One thing I enjoyed from the Dragon Age: awakening stronghold was the times when you sat in judgement over local matters of law and disputes between nobles. I found it really interesting and lent a real sense of power to the idea of being the lord of a region. It also gave you some nice moral choices that I would like to see again.

 

My lord this wrech stole food and fuel from our stores what would like to do with him:

 

Pardon Him

Inprison him for a few months

Guess what your going to be doing from now on slave because it won't be pretty

Hhhhmmm, why don't we start warming up the pyre it's been a while since we burned someone.

[milczyciel]

Not quite.

 

The worse the economy gets, the higher tax rate is needed to keep up with the ruler's demands even if they remain the same, but it's because the peasants you tax are much poorer.

 

Countries like Sweden, Finland, Norway... have rather high tax rates, yet they are safe, well-off, and rather efficient.

I agree and can't explain why I haven't tackled it myself (my bad), but still believe it's just one of the many sides of multifaceted reality dice. Still, because I know **** about economy I will not try to persuade you otherwise.

Anyhow, I'd like to address hydrogyrum post. I would to, like to see the Stronghold in ruins, it's inhabitants killed (or captured) and as a direct result the reputation of PC shattered. But no "game-over, world ended, must reload" plox

 

-"Fear not!  _I_ came to the rescue!"

-"Is that a joke?! Where are the REAL reinforcements?! You know even we heard about your splendid work while defending the god damn fortress, do you? So please take a second look at that rotten palisade and give me some kind of reason to believe you'll fare better this time, facing **** legion of Orlan savages!"

 

...yeah, I'm no writer

Edited September 4, 2013 by milczyciel