Anita Sarkeesian/Tropes and Women in Gaming

[alanschu]

 

You are misunderstanding me a little. I'm not saying she's necessarily wrong, just that these are details that make it hard for me personally, to care about her arguments. I'm not a testosterone-fueled, big muscled, brown haired walking manhunk that crushes everything and gets all the women. Yet I don't sneer with disgust at every game that features them
and don't complain on the internet how wrong that is and how boys playing these games get a twisted sense of what it means to be a man. I just can't understand the attitudes some people have. Sarkeesian is trying to make some proper points in this series, I see, which is good (though I still think she should focus on WHY the treatment of women in
games is bad instead of just nagging on that it's evil). Yet I've seen one or two videos from her and I don't trust her. Her current "educating" attitude seems to me like an act, and the "regressive crap part" and her Bayonetta review are the cracks.

 

She is certainly presenting it from a particular point of view.  Sidetracking this away from Anita's video specifically:

 

 

I was chatting with a friend/co-worker today about this a bit as well, and we find it interesting.

 

I remember someone calling for "mature" themes in DA3, such as rape.  I responded with a statement that I think it'd be interesting if the male PC got raped and the player was powerless to do anything about it.  The response I got was that that was clearly just being contrary to serve feminist agenda.

 

On the one hand this has effectively painted himself into a corner.  Threat of rape can only be "genuine" if it satisfies conditions he feels is "natural" and "realistic."  Deviating from this expectation undermines any attempt at it being presented as mature, because he felt it'd just come off as forced to try to be different.  There's two problems here:

 

First: the only acceptable way to present this is for the woman to be the victim.  I find this perspective to be somewhat telling and perhaps intrinsic to systemic/institutional ideas, which I don't think fairly line up with reality.  That he outright rejects the notion that a deviation from this is a bit unsettling to me, as it reinforces my perspective that there seems to be an issue with men feeling this is the only way to present something in a "mature" way.

 

Second: the realization that he's actually right.  Take Damsel in Distress and reverse it, and you'll often get people going "they're just reversing the trope to try to prove a point."  Change Double Dragon so it's some guy getting kidnapped and it's "they went away from the girl because of feminist pressures."  This can be a bit unsettling itself because it gives the idea that genuine attempts to just present a scenario without any gender role implications will automatically have gender role implications assigned to them by their audience (i.e. I feel you believe Anita is demonstrating this somewhat, herself.  Which is a fair criticism).

 

So we run into a problem of "We can't have a man rescue a girl, because it's Damsel in Distress and has sexist implications."  But having "woman rescuing man" gets dismissed as "they've just tried to reverse the Damsel in Distress trope."

 

 

I think Mass Effect did a good job with the Virmire survivor, as one was a male, the other was a female, and both are equally valid options regardless of Shepard's sex.  Though there were criticisms that one of the choices (and only one at any given time) was a potential love interest (I personally think this makes the choice more interesting.  Does Shepard let his affection influence his decision?).  Not all games will be able to have situations like this, however.

 

It's certainly not an easy resolution.  It seems as though ideally the best way is for these events to simply no longer be considered issues.  That's easier said than done, and likely would require some level of "affirmative action" to ensure that the distribution of games that have specifically "man rescues woman" set in proportion to respective permutations, it'll be something we think about less.  If there was an even 50/50 split of games that had women rescuing men in Mario's time, Anita's entire justification in using Mario as an example would be completely undermined.  The issue, I feel, is that it is very pervasive, which Anita obviously feels is a problem for appropriate representation and the socializing effects it can have.

 

(As an example, on this very forum I remember a thread where someone felt that pink was an intrinsically feminine colour and that women were biologically predisposed to find it more appealing.... This perspective I do not agree with at all and went on giant ramble responses for that as well.  Perhaps had his experiences growing up been different, he'd have been less likely to assume it was something biological rather than social - or perhaps not since we can't turn back time to verify )

 

 

Cheers!

 

Allan

[AwesomeOcelot]

The way to reverse the damsel in distress trope is for the damsel to escape herself or for her to not accept her role as prize. There's also the opportunity to pervert the damsel in distress trope, making the knight a douche or have less than chivalric motives, or the way Sands of Time and Braid work that are even more inventive.

 

Men get raped in reality. I don't know how it would be represented in a game in a way that doesn't suck, you probably can't and definitely shouldn't represent the experience from either the perspective from the rapist or the victim. You could go the way of Archer "The Wind Cries Mary", where the victim is told later. A better way would be for the PC to discover through gameplay that others have been raped, how they were, who, and why, and for them to then be knocked out in gameplay, and discover that they're in the aftermaths of the same situation and there's evidence they've been raped all around. It's a legitimate subject for games, it doesn't even matter if it's realistic, as long as its logical in the context the world and narrative of the game. Presenting it as "interesting" if the male PC got raped suggests that it's a "role reversal" which does suggest some agenda. Male and Female PC gets raped in Fallout 2, and male and female rape are explored in Fallout: New Vegas.

Edited March 16, 2013 by AwesomeOcelot

[BruceVC]

 

You are misunderstanding me a little. I'm not saying she's necessarily wrong, just that these are details that make it hard for me personally, to care about her arguments. I'm not a testosterone-fueled, big muscled, brown haired walking manhunk that crushes everything and gets all the women. Yet I don't sneer with disgust at every game that features them

and don't complain on the internet how wrong that is and how boys playing these games get a twisted sense of what it means to be a man. I just can't understand the attitudes some people have. Sarkeesian is trying to make some proper points in this series, I see, which is good (though I still think she should focus on WHY the treatment of women in

games is bad instead of just nagging on that it's evil). Yet I've seen one or two videos from her and I don't trust her. Her current "educating" attitude seems to me like an act, and the "regressive crap part" and her Bayonetta review are the cracks.

 

She is certainly presenting it from a particular point of view.  Sidetracking this away from Anita's video specifically:

 

 

I was chatting with a friend/co-worker today about this a bit as well, and we find it interesting.

 

I remember someone calling for "mature" themes in DA3, such as rape.  I responded with a statement that I think it'd be interesting if the male PC got raped and the player was powerless to do anything about it.  The response I got was that that was clearly just being contrary to serve feminist agenda.

 

On the one hand this has effectively painted himself into a corner.  Threat of rape can only be "genuine" if it satisfies conditions he feels is "natural" and "realistic."  Deviating from this expectation undermines any attempt at it being presented as mature, because he felt it'd just come off as forced to try to be different.  There's two problems here:

 

First: the only acceptable way to present this is for the woman to be the victim.  I find this perspective to be somewhat telling and perhaps intrinsic to systemic/institutional ideas, which I don't think fairly line up with reality.  That he outright rejects the notion that a deviation from this is a bit unsettling to me, as it reinforces my perspective that there seems to be an issue with men feeling this is the only way to present something in a "mature" way.

 

Second: the realization that he's actually right.  Take Damsel in Distress and reverse it, and you'll often get people going "they're just reversing the trope to try to prove a point."  Change Double Dragon so it's some guy getting kidnapped and it's "they went away from the girl because of feminist pressures."  This can be a bit unsettling itself because it gives the idea that genuine attempts to just present a scenario without any gender role implications will automatically have gender role implications assigned to them by their audience (i.e. I feel you believe Anita is demonstrating this somewhat, herself.  Which is a fair criticism).

 

So we run into a problem of "We can't have a man rescue a girl, because it's Damsel in Distress and has sexist implications."  But having "woman rescuing man" gets dismissed as "they've just tried to reverse the Damsel in Distress trope."

 

 

I think Mass Effect did a good job with the Virmire survivor, as one was a male, the other was a female, and both are equally valid options regardless of Shepard's sex.  Though there were criticisms that one of the choices (and only one at any given time) was a potential love interest (I personally think this makes the choice more interesting.  Does Shepard let his affection influence his decision?).  Not all games will be able to have situations like this, however.

 

It's certainly not an easy resolution.  It seems as though ideally the best way is for these events to simply no longer be considered issues.  That's easier said than done, and likely would require some level of "affirmative action" to ensure that the distribution of games that have specifically "man rescues woman" set in proportion to respective permutations, it'll be something we think about less.  If there was an even 50/50 split of games that had women rescuing men in Mario's time, Anita's entire justification in using Mario as an example would be completely undermined.  The issue, I feel, is that it is very pervasive, which Anita obviously feels is a problem for appropriate representation and the socializing effects it can have.

 

(As an example, on this very forum I remember a thread where someone felt that pink was an intrinsically feminine colour and that women were biologically predisposed to find it more appealing.... This perspective I do not agree with at all and went on giant ramble responses for that as well.  Perhaps had his experiences growing up been different, he'd have been less likely to assume it was something biological rather than social - or perhaps not since we can't turn back time to verify )

 

 

Cheers!

 

Allan

 

 

You make some good and thought provoking points.

 

I do see loads of hypocrisy in certain discussions around topics you mentioned. Some people do ask for "mature" topics like rape in games but of course they are not talking about the rape of men. This one of the reasons I like Bioware games, they offer a balanced option for both straight and gay games. I do feel there is still an element of sexism in  certain  games and when developers do try to address this they are accused of pandering to the feminist crowd. So its a lose lose situation in many cases

 

Saying that I have no issues with appreciating the beauty of the female body and I not going to say I don't find certain virtual characters in my many games attractive in the context of the game and a RPG. Sometimes we  are made to feel guilty when we say "I like to have  Romance\Sex" in my games.  The argument  I hear is that its "weird to want sex with pixel created people" and "get a girlfriend in RL, an RPG is not about relationships"

 

I don't presume to tell people what should  constitute there RPG experience, its different for all of us. But I will say this, almost all beauty we are exposed to in this world is "not real". News presenters, magazine models, movie stars and even strippers operate in a semi-world of fantasy. Photo shop and make-up is used to enhance aesthetics, and this is all part of what we like to see. Its what sells and its what society expects. When was the last time you saw an ugly Sky News presenter? So I have no issue with seeing beauty in female game characters. Also  ladies shouldn't be judged because they happen to be intelligent and beautiful. I can guarantee you that International News Presenters, like Sky, are very happy in there jobs.

 

Finally that video Oner posted about the game  I do find sexist and insulting to women. For me it objectifies the leading character as a  stripper only with her actions  and its target is clearly a segment of the market who want to see women like that. Thats fine if the developers want to do that but they need to understand they will receive criticism and I won't support games like that as its one dimensional and doesn't have enough depth

[alanschu]

Saying that I have no issues with appreciating the beauty of the female body and I not going to say I don't find certain virtual characters in my many games attractive in the context of the game and a RPG.

 

I think the important thing about physically attractive people is trying to discern the motivations behind why she is made that way.  Sometimes we can fall into tropes doing that too (the Ice Queen for example), but I was a big fan of Isabella because her design is basically to illicit the "she's a sex object" perspective, and even her superficial interactions leads one to conclude just the same.

 

But I find her motivations interesting.  She isn't there just to have sex with the male, and is frankly mostly just a woman that is comfortable with her sexuality and enjoys making other people feel a bit uncomfortable because of it.  But peel back some of the layers and you get someone that is a bit deeper.  I know some think it's still a bit cliched (which is fair enough) as to what her layers are, but I enjoyed it.  Same with the types like Annah and Fall-From-Grace as well (although FFG is probably a bit more predictable of a counterpoint to the standard succubus).

Edited March 16, 2013 by alanschu

[BruceVC]

 

Saying that I have no issues with appreciating the beauty of the female body and I not going to say I don't find certain virtual characters in my many games attractive in the context of the game and a RPG.

 

I think the important thing about physically attractive people is trying to discern the motivations behind why she is made that way.  Sometimes we can fall into tropes doing that too (the Ice Queen for example), but I was a big fan of Isabella because her design is basically to illicit the "she's a sex object" perspective, and even her superficial interactions leads one to conclude just the same.

 

But I find her motivations interesting.  She isn't there just to have sex with the male, and is frankly mostly just a woman that is comfortable with her sexuality and enjoys making other people feel a bit uncomfortable because of it.  But peel back some of the layers and you get someone that is a bit deeper.  I know some think it's still a bit cliched (which is fair enough) as to what her layers are, but I enjoyed it.  Same with the types like Annah and Fall-From-Grace as well (although FFG is probably a bit more predictable of a counterpoint to the standard succubus).

 

Excellent examples, as I mentioned numerous times Isabella for me was smoking hot. Yes she personified certain things that many people feel objectified women yet she also was an important and invaluable member of my party. She  had realistic and worthy objectives in life, she wanted her own ship and she wanted to captain it. So for me she had many levels to her and wasn't just some sexual object that Bioware threw into the game.

[Oner]

Finally that video Oner posted about the game  I do find sexist and insulting to women. For me it objectifies the leading character as a  stripper only with her actions  and its target is clearly a segment of the market who want to see women like that. Thats fine if the developers want to do that but they need to understand they will receive criticism and I won't support games like that as its one dimensional and doesn't have enough depth

Have you played Bayonetta? Me neither, so I can't say how sexist or not the game is, I can only repeat what I read about it. Bayonetta wears her sexuality on her sleeve, what's wrong with that? She eats lollipops, what's wrong with that? She's an over-the-top parody, what's wrong with that? She is strong, confident, etc.

But that's not why I linked the video. For what is supposed to be a review, she dismisses the story as beside the point (and it's clearly not because story isn't the focus of spectacle fighters), is laden with inaccurate statements, and acts like the game has 0 good things about it. That kind of review is frankly, trash and makes me question her competence and doubt the quality of her future videos.

Plus I saw a video of her yesterday where she states that 'I saw mommy kissing Santa Claus' is a song about a woman cheating on her husband with Santa.

...

...

[Oner]

 It seems as though ideally the best way is for these events to simply no longer be considered issues.

 This is my belief, but I doubt we ever get there, especially since the internet has allowed everyone to whine about anything.

[pmp10]

 

 

 

 

Let's just say that her point would have more merit if she wasn't dissecting a 20(?) year old children's game about a stereotypical personalityless Italian (who grows huge from mushrooms) trying to save the personalityless princess* of the mushroom people who got kidnapped by the evil turtle (yes I know hey are supposed to be kappa) kingdom and

their personalityless boss. Doesn't even have a plot! It's just silly imo, and the gaming industry has come a LONG way since then.

 

Errr, her point with that was that the damsel in distress trope has its roots in early gaming, and she illustrated that the theme of Peach being captured has remained the central motivation for the game in 13 of 14 different iterations of Mario games, and that the trope continues today.  Though she does acknowledge that the mere existence of this trope in a game doesn't mean that a game must be sexist.

 

 

My point is that she took offense at Peach being a DiD because she's a woman too. Were she not, she wouldn't care, just as she doesn't care about fat, accented italians and a whole kingdom of evil turtles.

 

 

The problem of DiD is not that victim is a woman but that she's being rescured by a male.

Whole of new Tomb Raider is a giant DiD plot but since we play a heroine there it's perfectly fine and acceptable.

 

 

Finally that video Oner posted about the game  I do find sexist and insulting to women. For me it objectifies the leading character as a  stripper only with her actions  and its target is clearly a segment of the market who want to see women like that. Thats fine if the developers want to do that but they need to understand they will receive criticism and I won't support games like that as its one dimensional and doesn't have enough depth

Have you played Bayonetta? Me neither, so I can't say how sexist or not the game is, I can only repeat what I read about it. Bayonetta wears her sexuality on her sleeve, what's wrong with that? She eats lollipops, what's wrong with that? She's an over-the-top parody, what's wrong with that? She is strong, confident, etc.

 

 

And during special finishers all her clothes fall off.

Nothing wrong with that as far as fan-service goes but I wouldn't go pretending there is any other point to that design.

[Spider]

I think Anita Sarkeesian's was very well thought out and explained. I thoguht she explained why she started looking at Mario very well. I agree that she needs to look at more contemporary games as well. Bbut given that this was part 1 and she said she'd do just that in part 2, I don't think that's a problem. She was also going to look at role reversal in part 2, iirc.

 

What I think was a problem in the video was the assumption of the audience's pre-knowledge. She's looking at games thorugh the same methods that have been established to analyze gender issues in literature and other art forms. All the tropes have long since been established. And while she does do a fine job of explaining what the particular trope is, she never really goes into WHY over use of tropes like these are a bad thing. Basically she's assuming her audience is already familiar with the theories which she are applying. I think she with these videos will reach an audience not previously familiar with those theories, so there is a bit of a lost oppurtunity there.

 

For reference (so I don't make myself guilty of the same thing), if our society's culture present women as (in the case of this trope) victims a majority of the time, it will reinforce that stereotype in our subconscious, making it harder for women everywhere to be seen as capable as men. Fairly short and simplistic explanation, but anyway.

 

So yeah, I feel like she's targeting an audience already familiar with questions like these, while it's quite possible a majority won't be.

[Raithe]

 

 

(As an example, on this very forum I remember a thread where someone felt that pink was an intrinsically feminine colour and that women were biologically predisposed to find it more appealing.... This perspective I do not agree with at all and went on giant ramble responses for that as well.  Perhaps had his experiences growing up been different, he'd have been less likely to assume it was something biological rather than social - or perhaps not since we can't turn back time to verify )

 

 

Cheers!

 

Allan

 

Well, that one I'd have to hit with the historical trivia that it's only been the last century that pink was an intrinsically feminine colour.

Back during the Victorian era, pink was generally used more for boys then girls. You were more likely to find a boy with pink handkerchiefs, cravats, etc, then a girl using the colour, and girls were more likely to have blue shades on their fashion then men.

 

You just can't argue that the colours are intrinsically male or female. They keep changing over time.....

 

But enough of the random trivia for the day...

[Nonek]

To be honest I find Biowares handling of women to a little reprehensible, none of them are able to resolve their own difficulties, they're incompetent in anything but slaughter, they're so stupid they wear shirts into combat in a sea side city where they would suffer from hypothermia within a half hour, they're morally vacuous and will not leave the protagonist whatever actions he takes, they come and go at his bidding for years at a time placing their lives on the line at his say so, and they sell their favours for trinkets like common street walkers. Basically they're slaves.

 

I found this to be utterly sickening in Dragon Age 2 and the missus was also a little perturbed by it, the courtship quest of the incompetent guardswoman was especially galling, a grown widow woman who cannot even approach a man openly but once again needs the protagonists shepherding, utterly absurd. Bioware needs to really step up in this department.

 

It spoiled my enjoyment of the game to the point where I had to jettison every character from my party, though in fairness the males were not handled much more successfully and were equally risible, and I winced every time they'd be forcefully reinserted into my presence.

Edited March 16, 2013 by Nonek

[melkathi]

none of them are able to resolve their own difficulties, they're incompetent in anything but slaughter,

 

And in that they differ from the male npcs how exactly?

[Nonek]

Fair point sir.

[Starwars]

That's one reason why I actually really liked Morrigans' character in DA1. I loved that, even though you can romance her, you can never sway her from her ultimate goal with your magic main character hero lovin' abilities. She does acknowledge that she has feelings for you, but she remains independent and true to her own goals. I thought that was pretty refreshing.

 

You still "guide her" in a way I suppose but that's true for most companions, male or female.

[Oner]

This quoting system is a turd...

 

pimp10: Yes, it's true it's fanservice, but that doesn't mean the game/characters is without merit. Or that she isn't talking nonsense half the time.

[alanschu]

 

 

 

Well, that one I'd have to hit with the historical trivia that it's only been the last century that pink was an intrinsically feminine colour.

Back during the Victorian era, pink was generally used more for boys then girls. You were more likely to find a boy with pink handkerchiefs, cravats, etc, then a girl using the colour, and girls were more likely to have blue shades on their fashion then men.

 

You just can't argue that the colours are intrinsically male or female. They keep changing over time.....

 

But enough of the random trivia for the day...

 

 

I did just that!

[alanschu]

 

none of them are able to resolve their own difficulties, they're incompetent in anything but slaughter,

 

And in that they differ from the male npcs how exactly?

 

 

This is the crux.  I look at Nonek's post and see it more as a critique of NPCs in general (and if you think about it, it's a large issue in RPGs, or even gaming, in general).

 

Are we perhaps a bit to "hero focused?"  Maybe.  But at the same time, how well do gamers respond to things when they are outside their control to the point where they feel restricted.

 

Place a timer and people get real upset.  Make it so you can only accomplish 4/5 things where the last thing gets resolved (somehow) in its own way?  Could maybe work a bit better.  Having a problem exist for the NPC that the NPC always resolves entirely on his/her own without PC involvement will lead to some RPGer types to wonder "what's the point" as there's no interactivity or influence the player can exert to alter the outcome.

 

 

Although as a counterpoint, Isabella does deal with the ruffians in the bar all on her own, when you first meet her.

[HoonDing]

It's easy to be "confident in your sexuality" like Isabella when you have a friend who cures all your STDs for free.

[Gorth]

 

Let's just say that her point would have more merit if she wasn't dissecting a 20(?) year old children's game about a stereotypical personalityless Italian (who grows huge from mushrooms) trying to save the personalityless princess* of the mushroom people who got kidnapped by the evil turtle (yes I know hey are supposed to be kappa) kingdom and

their personalityless boss. Doesn't even have a plot! It's just silly imo, and the gaming industry has come a LONG way since then.

 

Errr, her point with that was that the damsel in distress trope has its roots in early gaming, and she illustrated that the theme of Peach being captured has remained the central motivation for the game in 13 of 14 different iterations of Mario games, and that the trope continues today.  Though she does acknowledge that the mere existence of this trope in a game doesn't mean that a game must be sexist.

 

 

 

>>Which is true, there should be more, but I don't see how she/they want to change this if they focus on an antiquidated concept in an antique game, and frankly, ignoring every other positive trait that character may have. One friend of mine dismissed Lara Croft on the ground of her being a sex symbol, completely ignoring her personality and character. I mean really, at least give credit where it's due.

 

Eh, the original Lara Croft still focused heavily on Male Gaze.  I think it got worse as the series progressed initially.

 

A review by a Mary Sue writer details her experiences (and epiphany) with the Tomb Raider series and how her perspective of it changed as she got older and was exposed to the different games (she agreed that lara was amazing and awesome with the first game), and the reservations she had with the new game and how she ends up loving what the game did with Lara's character in this one.  An enjoyable read.

 

 

Ironically, the first Tomb Raider games were also the best *games*. When it (the franchise) switched focus from the game to all the peripheral stuff, Lara Croft included, the franchise started its downfall into mediocracy, never to recover quality wise.

[Chaz]

I gotta say, the first time I heard about this video it sounded like nonsense to me because I don't see the Video Game media to be mysoginist at all, I decided to give it a shot and watched it anyway, the alarms started to go off when I saw comments and ratings were disabled on her video. On my experience the only ones that disable comments and ratings on youtube are usually dogmatic fanatics that are not interested in an intellectual dialogue and just want to preach, boy was I right!

 

The main point on her video was that if you try to do what any normal person in a relationship would do (like trying to help or rescue a loved one like a girlfriend) then you are objectifying her and she is merely a damsel in distress. Man, good thing I watched that sarkeesian video, now I know that if my gf gets kidnapped I just have to sit back and let her escape on her own, I don't want to disempower or objectify her after all. Sorry but I don't see how anyone could possibly buy that.

It also looks like she wants to spread the delusion that the video game industry is some sort of patriarchal organization that's out to objectify and subjugate women, this is particularly embarrasing for all the gamers and game developers that gave her money on good faith only for her to turn back and attack the gaming industry so she could advance her own feminist agenda.

 

This is like if we gave money to the NRA so they could keep accusing the gaming industry of beign a corrupt, callous and shadowy organization, Video Games have always been an easy target for anyone wanting to dishonestly promote their ideas, we've been accused of causing gun violence, sexism, animal cruelty, you name it, but at least we were not funding these attackers, well, until now at least.

 

I understand that people saw a woman beign massively harrased and wanted to help her, and even now people are reluctant to be critical of her videos because they don't want to attack a woman, but seriously, anyone that puts forth a controversial point of view is going to be attacked, and the fact that there was a lot opposition to her ideas didn't mean she was right, I hope the gaming community is more critical of people wanting to take advantage of them as we go forward.

[alanschu]

She probably doesn't allow comments or votes because this whole idea resulted in throngs of twits literally threatening her physical harm and telling her that she needs to be raped and the like.

 

There's mountains of dip****s out there that loathe her, all the while failing to recognize that their own dogmatic hatred only serves to grant her more visibility.

 

 

 

The main point on her video was that if you try to do what any normal person in a relationship would do (like trying to help or rescue a loved one like a girlfriend) then you are objectifying her and she is merely a damsel in distress

 

The main point of her video is that damsel in distress is exceptionally common as a gaming trope, to the point where the woman serves as little more than to be an object to be fought over by two male people.  Your point that it's nothing more than a loved one being rescued by a partner would be accurate if the distribution of scenario breakdown either was representative of reality, or at the very least not in line with a lot of other media that utilizes the trope in an unflattering way.

 

 

 

It also looks like she wants to spread the delusion that the video game industry is some sort of patriarchal organization that's out to objectify and subjugate women, this is particularly embarrasing for all the gamers and game developers that gave her money on good faith only for her to turn back and attack the gaming industry so she could advance
her own feminist agenda.

 

No.  The gaming industry has a history of focusing exclusively towards males, and has been serving to propagate negative (and recently created, as in since about the industrial revolution) stereotypes about the role of women.

 

Seriously, as a game developer I have no clue how you concluded that she feels that the video game is a patriarchal organization that is out to subjugate women.  I certainly didn't feel that she accused me of anything of the sort.  At best she concludes that Shigeru Miyamoto relies on the trope as a means of story telling.  Though she also straight up states that the existence of this trope in a game doesn't mean the game is without value nor even sexist.  Just that the trope is common.

 

 

As far as I'm concerned, the biggest failing of Anita's video is that she effectively doesn't state anything that most people already recognized as being rather obvious.  I found it too safe and too conservative as most of it made me go "well yeah."  She has a couple of interesting points that I wasn't aware of (Rare's game), but mostly picked at the low hanging fruit (which people have used to undermine the video).

 

 

 

the fact that there was a lot opposition to her ideas didn't mean she was right

 

It has little to do with the fact that there was opposition, but rather the level of maturity by which some of the opposition decided to present itself (which was, essentially, admitting that they straight up are sexist and misogynistic).  That someone is critical of her doesn't mean that she is right (nor wrong), but the irony is that those that decided to whip out 110% ad hominem attacks only served to make her more visible and demonstrate that there is, in fact, a sizable portion of gamers that really need to have their heads examined.

[Gorth]

I must play the wrong games. Last one I remember where the protagonist fought the antagonist over a woman as a prize was Donkey Kong. Maybe it's common in the games I generally ignore (quite possibly).

[Chaz]

She probably doesn't allow comments or votes because this whole idea resulted in throngs of twits literally threatening her physical harm and telling her that she needs to be raped and the like.

There's mountains of dip****s out there that loathe her, all the

while failing to recognize that their own dogmatic hatred only serves to

grant her more visibility.

 

There are tons of content makers out there that are trolled, insulted and even threatened by some, not all, of the people in the comments. Yet still they don't disable them. Also when you disable comments you are not only silencing the trolls, you are silencing people that have valid critisism and also the people that agree with you that could add to the conversation, but she's not interested in a conversation, you disable comments, you are here to preach so at least let's admit that.

 

The main point of her video is that damsel in distress is exceptionally

common as a gaming trope, to the point where the woman serves as little

more than to be an object to be fought over by two male people.  Your

point that it's nothing more than a loved one being rescued by a partner

would be accurate if the distribution of scenario breakdown either was

representative of reality, or at the very least not in line with a lot

of other media that utilizes the trope in an unflattering way.

 

Well it is exceptionally common if you go ahead and cherry pick the games where female are the victim and ignore the games where they are protagonists, also most of the games that were mentioned were platformers and beat em up from the 8-bit era, games that were exceptional for their lack of writing because that was simply not the focus of the game, all characters were one dimensional, and the plot is set up in literally 5 seconds, girlfriend gets punched and kidnapped by bad guys, gotta go get her. Who wouldnt help her, right? well now it looks like that if you want to help her you're a mysoginist

 

No.  The gaming industry has a history of focusing exclusively towards

males, and has been serving to propagate negative stereotypes about the role

of women.

 

Wrong again Bob, the gaming industry is not out to please the men, they are out to make a profit, and the gamer demographic at the begining was overwhelmingly male dominant, mostly kids, by the way, that wouldn't give a damn about the oversimplified plot and just wanted to play because it was fun to punch bad guys in Double Dragon or eat mushrooms with Mario.

 

A lot of women have joined the gaming community since, and games have also changed a lot, but even back in the old school days you would have female protagonists in games like Ms Pacman or Phantasy Star, or games that would allow you to choose to play as a male or female, like the original fallout.

 

Seriously, as a game developer I have no clue how you concluded that she

feels that the video game is a patriarchal organization that is out to

subjugate women.

 

First of all, pretty much all feminist belive in the patriarchy and It came off to me that way when she said "in the game of patriarchy, women are not the opposing team, they are the ball" while showing an image of bowser holding peach in a sphere, he's more like a monster, not a man, but you get the point. I don't belive in the patriarchy and actually I belive Video Games as a media is portraying women on a very positive light, we have a ton of strong and capable female protagonists and Im sure we'll have many more.

 

Which of these scenarios is more likely to you? Miyamoto made Star Fox the main character of Dinosaur Planet because he dislike females and didn't want to have krystal as the protagonist or he simply decided that a famous character from an established franchise would bring them more money? Again, they are after profits, it's not a conspiracy against women.

 

And as a final note, while she complains that a strong character like Krystal was turned into a damsel, in her thesis she says that strong females are not really feminists, they are just pretending to be male because strength is a male trait. So which one is it, does she want strong female characters or not?

 

 

Anyway, that is my critique and I hope gamers don't fall for the same trap of "omg a girl is beign bullied I gotta give her money!" Looks like she was the biggest damsel in distress after all, embarrasing.

Edited March 17, 2013 by Chaz

[Azure79]

I'm with Gorth. Maybe its the games I play, but I honestly can't remember the last game I played where the game's plot revolved around saving a damsel in distress.

 

There are a lot of memorable female game characters I really like. If they have failings, weaknesses or insecurities, its not because they are female, its because they're human. I didn't watch the video nor was I aware of this incident, but the whole thing seems like a non-issue that was blown out of proportion, like the Janet Jackson Superbowl thing. 

[Volourn]

How aboput tropes vs males? There are so many tropes vs males in media that paint males in a horrible light. Horrible, horrible, horrible lliht. that belittles them, mocks them, and throws them in the trash. There is just as much sexcism against males as there is against females. It's a different form, but it still exists, and it is just as bad.

 

 

"She probably doesn't allow comments or votes because this whole idea resulted in throngs of twits literally threatening her physical harm and telling her that she needs to be raped and the like."

 

Oh please. She didn't get attacked because she was female. She got attacked because this is the internet. Who hasn't had some internet tough gug/gal threaten to physically do you harm at least once? L0LZ

 

 

"I must play the wrong games. Last one I remember where the
protagonist fought the antagonist over a woman as a prize was Donkey
Kong. Maybe it's common in the games I generally ignore (quite
possibly)."
 

I agree. the most common trope happens to be 'save the world' one which has NOTHING to do with gender.

Edited March 17, 2013 by Volourn