Chaz

Regarding Nyberg and #ObsidianCaves, turns out that one of the maniacs that was running a campaign to, in her own words, "pressure" Obsidian to removed the Firedorn memorial is one of the most fanatical defenders of Nyberg, saying that all the accusations are fabricated. This person is no other than Katherine Cross that works on Feminist Frequency (even when ppl in this forum were claiming she didnt) She also attacked John Bain aka Totalbiscuit saying he's transphobic (her go-to attack) and did the same against Mark Kern, lead designer for vanilla wow, but in his case she didn't name him by name. While not directly related to the Nyberg thing, another person that was trying to pressure Obsidian and directly contacted Josh Sawyer was Ian Miles Cheong, he has distanced himself greatly from the whole Social Justice/Politically Correct movement in gaming a few months ago and sounds regretful for having taken part on that, according to him getting outraged was like an addiction when he was onboard with the SJW/PC crowd.

The companions for KotFE have already been datamined, so the information is out there if you want look for it. For those that don't want to be spoiled I can give some non-spoilery information, remember this is work in progress. -You lose your old companions, probably early in the expansion -There is a new cast of "universal companions" meaning everyone gets them regardless of class, I wont say who but if you pay attention to the characters Bioware has been introducing in the past year I think you can make a pretty educated guess. -Some (not all) of the old companions will be able to be re-recruited and will play a part in the story, in this case Bioware went mostly with the cheaper companions that don't have a Voice Actor (expect a lot of aliens and droids to come back) -Some of these old companions will be available for every class, even the ones from the other faction, I guess that could lead to interesting dialogues -I believe these old companions will be coming back after Chapter 9, what does this mean? That we probably won't see them at launch, and most likely will appear in new chapters, on early 2016, but don't quote me on this. -A character mentioned in the galactic timeline videos that never made it into the game will appear, not as companion, most likely as adviser. -A character from the first expansion (RotHC) will be coming back, probably as adviser too. -If you don't like anyone there will be animal and generic droid companions, like probes or akk dogs, yes they will be combat capable and not pets. -I think all or most of the companions will be able to tank, heal or dps now, so you take the one you like based on personality, not role.

You know with him ALL the characters from the trailers will be in the game now, so you could say that the circle is now complete. Satele, Malgus, Shae Vizla, Jace Malcom, hell even T7 was on the trailers. The ones we'll probably never see are the ones that died in the trailers or before the game came out like Vindican, Ven Zallow, Eleena Daru, etc. Why wasn't the dude on the game before? I hear the actor that played in on the trailers is actually very high profile for them to give him a role, I wonder who will be voicing him now, the someone else.

Ok, with all the being said I think the discussion on these topics has run its course, I guess we can discuss the upcoming expansion, Knight of the Fallen Empire.

I have a question for you then, tell me the difference between a Sith and a Rakata without bringing up their appearance, what kind of weaponry and technology they used and the fact that they lived pretty much in different eras. Since you say Sith are just bad guys who use the force then you probably can't find any difference between them. Leaving that aside, I think you can get away with having different interpretation of Sith characters, especially when you compare characters from different eras or when you compare different mediums such as movies vs video games or books, since they are intended for different audiences. But when I compare KOTOR 2 Sith to KOTOR Sith, we're talking about the same era, we're talking about the same franchise since it's a damn sequel, hell they even use the same engine. Also I was already proven right when someone else brought up that there actually was a power struggle between the 2 main Sith bad guys but it was cut from the game, it always stood out for me that one never really tried to establish control over the other and that they just let each other do their own thing, but since so much content was cut that explains it. I have to kinda disagree, what you say may work for a book or movie or a telltale game, but in an classic RPG, combat is paramount you need interesting enemies with great variety and design, as much as good dialogue. Forces of Nature has more to do with the fact that they characters are nigh unstoppable (in games and fantasy is due to their immense power) and not so much to do with the lack of personality or individuality (but that can be part of the theme too) that's why I said before that in a more realistic setting a force of nature would actually be something like bad weather, which is an actual force of nature. A zombie horde or Dragon Age's Blight can be considered a Force of Nature too but not characters, in a Fantasy setting the protagonists or playable characters are the only ones that are in a position to stop these forces of nature. Mephistopheles as a ruler of the 8 layer of hell is one of the most powerful beings in the planes, same with King of Shadows which is some sort of ancient magical construct powered by the weave itself, so yeah I think force of nature is a fit description for them. I'll just leave the whole discussion about the Jedi Cosular power aside, since I don't find it that important, but the way I interpret these comments made by NPCs is to lay the narrative that the designers even before launch said they wanted, their design was for the characters to be already capable to be heroes from lvl 1.

Yeah, this comparison would totally work if only the darkspawn weren't essentially orcs by any other name. As-is, though, they're anything but "an implacable force of parasitic and alien horror". They're mooks to be slaughtered. Orcs in most settings are often inspired by Barbarian Tribes, in some settings they are more civilized and even diplomatic, like in WoW, in other settings they are completely destructive like in Warhammer. I think the Dark Spawn are neither of them, if anything they are much more comparable to an undead army, especially since neither of them seem to have any individuality or personality, they just follow the Archdemon, at least as far as Origins is concerned, after that they started to build more lore around them. Leaving that aside, I think it's funny some people think The Sith are whatever the author wants them to be, you see that's not how working for an established franchise works, especially if you were just hired to write and are not the one that actually owns the IP.

Yeah, this comparison sounds right to me, and the Dark Spawn were basically Dragon Age brand of unrelenting evil force, in D&D or other setting it might have been Undeads, or in Sci-Fi it might have been robots, something like Terminators or Reapers (before they were ruined) Which reminds me this dual villain (human and inhuman) also applies well to Mass Effect 3, you have The Illusive man and Cerbarus as the human and The Reaper threat as the inhuman antagonists. It's a formula that we see it gets used over and over because it works very well, even when you add variations here or there.

As I said before, I think my wording was wrong when I said they were necessary, but they work well in fantasy, at least looking at Bioware and Obsidian trackrecord you have Mephistopheles and The King of Shadows in NWN The Blight from Dragon Age you can even say Darth Nihilus from Kotor 2. As long as you have more down to earth, nuanced antagonists such as Loghain or Ammon Jerro they can keep the story interesting, but having monsters to slay in fantasy it's just more fun, I mean, who didn't got tired of killing hordes and hordes of human bandits in Kirkwall when playing Dragon Age 2? I'm not done with the Consular story yet, but I've seen her lift a huge wreckage that was trapping a dude's leg and then send that wreckage flying until it disappeared from the screen. I've seen her twice smash huge durasteel blastdoors with the force until she blew them open, not sure if you remember the opening scene from Episode 1, where they close those big blast doors and Qui-Gon tries to melt them with his saber but then gives up? Well, the consular just blew them open with Telekinetics. But even if we disregard that, the developers have said even before launch that they are designing your characters to be badasses from the start, it plays into the narrative too, the Knight says she was able to beat all her instructors and Yuon Par or Syo Bakarn say that force users as powerful as the consular are rare and come along once every several decades, and they're saying this when she is a Padawan.

The Darkspawn are necessary, in a movie maybe having a villain like Loghain is enough, but in a game you need someone you can fight constantly, and you cant fight Loghain himself every 5 minutes, right? Also some of the things that made Loghain good was that he was against the Darkspawn just like you, he just wanted to deal with them his own way and had no faith in the king or the wardens. I made the reference to Yoda because while playing the Jedi Consular, she doing some very advanced Telekinetics since chapter 1 and she was doing it in cutscenes, even some Sith when they witness what she can do are like "What the F***!?" As I said before, the Force of Nature antagonist is necessary, or maybe necessary is the wrong word, what I mean is that they work great with the Fantasy adventure formula, does it mean they're mandatory? Nope, but looking at Bioware's trackrecord it has worked well for them. In a more realistic setting the Force of Nature antagonist could something as simple as bad weather, an economic crisis or even a plague, in fact, in Neverwinter Nights you do have to stop a plague. I think the reason why we have an emperor is the same reason why swtor pulls so much imagery from the movies and prequels (even more than the original kotor) They wanted to make swtor as similar as the movies as possible for mass market appeal. Even the protagonists are inspired by major movie characters, you have the republic and imperial cruisers that look just like the ones in the movies, trooper armors, etc. The original KOTOR games pulled imagery from the movies but just not as much, but now with EA making a huge investment on developing this massive MMO, they decided to play it safe and pull as much from the movies as they can, even down to the Emperor himself. Also, the concept of a True Sith Empire was actually set up in the cliffhanger ending of KOTOR 2, Darth Traya was the one that brought it up, so it kinda makes sense that a Sith Empire has an emperor, even years before SWTOR was announced, fans of the series theorized that the only way a Sith Empire could exist without collapsing under infighting was by having a very powerful ruler to keep everyone in check, either that or a very radical way in the culture. Well, my issue with the emperor is not that he was distant and faceless, it's that he was actually absent, I would have liked it if he was involved in most of the stories as a force behind the scenes, pulling strings influencing people. As I commented before, My Sith Inquisitor gets to deal with the emperor only 4 years after the game came out, in an expansion. Im not sure I can agree with this, I think the motivations of the Sith Empire are more human than you think, I know that Bioware was the one that was tasked by LucasArts to create the Sith Code, and when they did, they took some inspiration from Mein Kampf, and I think there are more similarities, the way that the Sith Empire wants to be great again and get revenge on the republic after almost going extinct in The Great Hyperspace War could be compared to how Germany made a comeback after being defeated in WW1 to become a major threat in WW2.

Well maybe you're right about Nihilus, it's just that when I interacted with The Empeor in Ziost, well I saw a lot of potential since an actor can give more personality than a soundboard, there are soundboard characters in SWTOR and they get old REAL FAST. In an Sci Fantasy Epic you kinda need both kind of villains, you need the down to earth human villains and the looming threat, force of nature villains, take Dragon Age: Origins, one of the best RPGs done by bioware, the human villain is Loghain, he betrays you and the king, and he sends assassins after you all the time, but he has his reasons, his motivation, and if you spare him and recruit him you can learn alot about him, even develop some sort of mutual respect. The force of nature villains are the Darkwspawn and the Archdemon they have no personality, and their motivation is to kill everything I guess, maybe they are better explained in a book or whatever but as far as the game is concerned they're just mindless monsters, they don't even talk until the expansion. In an MMO where there are Darths and Jedi Masters everywhere and even your own characters are already larger-than-life to begin with (The Jedi Consular is pulling Telekinesis on a Yoda level pretty much from the get go) you need a force of nature villain that is even bigger and strongerer than your larger-than-life character and all the other NPCs, So it makes sense is The Emperor is kinda of super powerful, as long as there are smaller villains with more relatable and understandable motivations.

I agree that The Emperor comes off as "Muahaha I am the Evhulz" villain, although better characterized than Nihilus since he was interpreted by an actor with experience in horror films, that gave him a bit more personality and flavor, the problem is that we never get to know his character. From my point of view as a Sith Inquisitor the first time I get to "meet" The Emperor and talk to him was when I got to lvl 60, in an expansion that was released 3 years after the game came out! And it's the same case for pretty much every other class except the Knight and the Warrior, pretty disappointed considering they were hyping up The Emperor since before the game came out. I think it would have been better if The Emperor was involved in most of the class stories as an influence, some stories worked great without him, like the Agent, but other stories really had lackluster villains. It's not necessarily bad if a game wants to have a larger-than-life, force of nature kind of villain, in fact in those cases it's usually better for that villain to remain mostly mysterious, but the problem is that he had zero presence in the game except for a few classes, he was not really a villain at all.

If you mean that Bioware ignored a lot of the plots and characters from KOTOR 2, I think you're right, I think the team that Bioware brought in to write SWTOR were not bad writers but they were either selfish and wanted to tell their own stories and ignore the past or they were mostly ignorant of the games that preceded SWTOR. The few ties to KOTOR that exist are there because Karpyshyn wrote them, if they hadn't brought him in, there would be nothing at all. You can say that there are small nods to KOTOR 2, like Lord Paladius, Lord Draag, the Sith Entity... but those can barely be considered easter eggs. I think Bioware has always been true to the Star Wars theme, so it's ok if they want to do a Sci Fantasy adventure game without being too philosophical, pretentious or preachy (maybe that's why they're called juvenile or immature) but at least they should have aknowledged more of what happened before, they are making a game that is part of a franchise, a series, they kinda treated SWTOR as a stand alone game.

I remember saying this in the past and only Gromnir kinda agreed. Glad I'm not the only one who gets this. If Star Wars didn't work for anything else other than "juvenile space operas" (whatever that means) then KOTOR 2 would have not been a good game. Obsidian took the story of KOTOR 1 and ran with it, exploring some new dark and philosophical themes, people liked the story and the characters, the people that had problems with KOTOR 2 were with the unfinished state of the game, which has nothing to do with the Star Wars theme, it has to do more with development time and deadlines. EDIT: Obsidian has done this in other occassions, NWN 2 was a general fantasy adventure with all the classic tropes but add some nuanced characters and a bit of a dark tone, the MotB expansions seemed to be much darker and it certainly didn't seem to me they followed a more classic structure from the OC, they went a bit more wild with the companions too in my opinion, instead of getting the classic stereotypes from the 1st campaign, the new ones were more unique and different, not necessarily more likable.

I don't think anyone in the empire knew the true nature of the Emperor, except maybe those that were closer to him. As far as they know he was the one that saved them from annihilation and lead them on rebuilding their empire pretty much from scratch. Considering the guy so far hasn't really done anything that another Sith hasn't already done, I doubt they would've cared if he hadn't made it blatantly clear what he intended to do during the SoR climax. The only outstanding thing in his portfolio is his plan for the galaxy after all. Everything else about him reminds me of what one usually get from a bunch of "Nuh uh mah villain is stronger than -yours-!" arguments. Sadly neither Revan nor The Emperor are a huge focus on vanilla SWTOR. Each Class has kind of their own set of villains or antagonists... usually it's one main antagonist per chapter, and the great majority of these characters have pretty much nothing to do with The Emperor, in most class stories you barely hear about him in passing. That's the reason why the character of The Emperor is very underdeveloped in this game, in my opinion his character should have been involved in all 8 class stories IN SOME WAY, not just 2 or 3. From what I understand halfway through development of SWTOR they realized they have to tie SWTOR to KOTOR somehow and they brought in Drew Karpyshyn to sprinkle in some Revan/Emperor Storylines on some of the class stories and in some flashpoints. If you ask me, to go around calling themselves KOTOR 3, they should have connected their story to their previous games much better than what they did, all characters should have explored AT LEAST IN SOME WAY previous events of KOTOR and KOTOR 2. Like finding a Holocron of Darth Nihilus (and have him teach you something), or finding Clan Ordo who are honoring the promise Canderous made to Revan, The Exile could have appeared as a Force Ghost and mentor the Jedi Consular, things like that. Instead what we have are very minor references, very small cameos, and a story that 99% deals with new characters and doesn't deal with the past, it just feels disconnected from the rest of the franchise.

If you're subbed you get x12 EXP bonus, you should be done with your class story pretty quickly

There are certainly themes to the Sith that we've seen in the movies and in other media that I think Bioware has respected more when it came to their interpretation of the Sith in their games, the Master-Apprentice relationship, their hierarchical structure, as I said there are no partnerships or triumvirate, after getting rid of Traya, either Sion or Nihilus should have been the undisputed master of the Sith and the other his apprentice. The loss of humanity is a theme with the Sith, in the movies this is represented by Vader being half cyborg, Malak losing his entire lower jaw and Malgus having to live using a respirator, but the point is that they have not lost everything, there is still human under all that armor and cybernetic implants, if there is nothing but void under the robe and mask, well that's very simplistic and not as interesting. So the way I see Sion and Nihulus are not that much Sith and more like anomalous being. So if they really are just forces of nature then why the hell did they spare Traya!? if they have lost all compassion and empathy, then surely they would have done nothing less than totally annihilate her, letting her go was just bad writing. My point is that beign "Sith" is more than wearing a black robe, a red lightsaber and wear the title of Darth, so I can't really fault Bioware since they have been more true to the sources when they created their Sith characters.

That's true, but not because Obsidian or MCA didn't "quite get" the Sith, it's just that they/he used the game (and Kreia in particular) as mouthpiece for his critique on Star Wars' entire take on the black and white "good vs. evil" angle it has going - which of course is much better used in a typical Bioware storyline/setting. Critique is fine and valuable, however some fans do think that KOTOR 2 is the end all be all of Star Wars storytelling, which is very wrong in my opinion. The Exile and the three Sith Lords were very anomalous force users in what seemed to be a short "Dark Age" for the Jedi and Sith. But when I point out that they didn't "quite get" the Sith it's because these Sith characters don't quite stick to Sith Tradition, they're very weird (I always got this weird NEMESIS vibe from Sion) Traya also sets up the "True Sith Empire" as something beyond comprehenson, when in reality there is no great mystery about the True Sith, they were ancient Dark Jedi that interbred with the Sith race from Korriban, that's it. If you wanted to set up an obscure, ominous threat, there were other ancient civilizations that could have posed a threat to the Republic.

...Duh? I mean, that's the thematic statement the entire game makes. In my previous post I explained how the "Sith Lords" in "KOTOR 2: The Sith Lords" don't behave like Sith Lords at all, and more like your classic tormented abominations from other Obsidian games, someone that you kinda want to put out of their misery more than anything. So in my opinion Obsidian or Chris didn't quite get the Sith and Bioware did a better job at representing them. I think them letting her live was more part of the narrative of setting up Traya as someone that has been rejected by both orders, leading her to hate both of them and the force itself, the result is quite nice because you end up with her going to her Kreia persona and becoming a sort of "Sith Philosopher" But let's be honest here, not killing her was not just dumb, it was anti-sith, you don't have to be genius to think: "hmm, maybe I should kill her now that she's weak and broken, she might recover her power and try to take revenge" Now that you mention it, i think I've heard before about the power struggle between Sion and Nihilus, it's pretty cool, and I also think Nihilus, in a classic Sith Hierarchy structure, Nihilus should have been established as the master and Sion the apprentice.

I don't think anyone in the empire knew the true nature of the Emperor, except maybe those that were closer to him. As far as they know he was the one that saved them from annihilation and lead them on rebuilding their empire pretty much from scratch. I had made a point earlier that maybe Chris Avellone didn't understood the SIth or didn't write them too well, im particularly referring to Sion and Nihulus. It makes sense that the two apprentices would plot to overthrow the master, but after they overpowered Traya they should have obliterated her, instead they exile her? does that sound stupid to anyone else? Any Sith worth a damn knows that if you let a threat like that live and walk away they might come back later to kill you, which is pretty much what happens, Nihilus is led to his death and Traya comes back and binds Sion to her will, if they had killed her, both of them would have still been alive. Not to mention that after getting rid of Traya, Im surprised Sion and Nihilus didn't turn on each other right away, not necessarily to kill each other, but to establish dominance, you see there is no such thing as equal partnership among the SIth, they've always been very hierarchical, if they stick closer to SIth Tradition one of them should have been the master, and the other the apprentice. Anyone that causes trouble for the Emperor would be immediately roflstomped by him or his wrath, during the period where the SWTOR takes place the Emperor has been "dormant" other Dark Lords describe him as "distracted" or "absent" that's when many of most powerful Sith on the Dark Council try to make their move and grab power.

*eye roll* HA! Good Fun! Keep in mind I'm referring to Sion and Nihilus, I know for a fact that most Sith from the Sith Empire would react with disgust to such inhuman monstrosities and also I say they are a mockery of Siths because Avellone implied that was the intent when these characters were created, Sion and Nihilus are how he sees Force Users who are devoted to the force (Dark Side in this Case) stripped of humanity and individuality. Now that I think about it, I don't remember any likable Force User NPC from Kotor 2, they are well written, and memorable, but they all are kind of jerks, I guess Chris didn't see neither The Jedi nor the Sith in a positive light, nor the Force Itself. Considering the kind of people that the Sith produce on a regular basis, I've got my doubts. They even followed a Nihilus wannabe until they learned he wanted to eat the -entire- galaxy. Well, one thing I gotta give to Bioware is that they created a SIth Empire with great diversity, and no I don't mean race and sex, I mean that in a civilization where the Sith are integrated into society (as rulers) we get to see a lot of different kind of Sith. Sure, you have Siths as Generals and Warriors, but you also have Diplomats and Scientists. My basis in saying the Sith would reject monsters like Sion or Nihilus lies on the Dread War, one of the Sith Lords sent to stop the Dread Masters, Lord Hargrev, was a well known sadist and torturer, however when he witnessed the things the Dread Masters do he decided that "they've gone too far", that they're inhuman, even for him who was a bad guy. The Dread Masters are similar to the vision Avellone had for Sion and Nihulus, what happens when you take a force user, that commits to the force (dark side in this case) all the way? Sion was all about Pain, Nihulus about hunger, the Dread Masters were all about Fear, they could drive people insane just for being on the same planet as them and their powers were on a Cthulu-esque/Cosmic Horror level.

Cmon, you know I'm right =)

*eye roll* HA! Good Fun! Keep in mind I'm referring to Sion and Nihilus, I know for a fact that most Sith from the Sith Empire would react with disgust to such inhuman monstrosities and also I say they are a mockery of Siths because Avellone implied that was the intent when these characters were created, Sion and Nihilus are how he sees Force Users who are devoted to the force (Dark Side in this Case) stripped of humanity and individuality. Now that I think about it, I don't remember any likable Force User NPC from Kotor 2, they are well written, and memorable, but they all are kind of jerks, I guess Chris didn't see neither The Jedi nor the Sith in a positive light, nor the Force Itself.

My bad. What I meant (and what Alanschu posted a few years back IIRC) is that from a content amount standpoint, the game was KotOR 3-5, not necessarily that the storyline picked up where K2 ended. I agree with the rest of your post. I didn't know it was Karpyshyn who wrote the JK storyline, but judging from the general poor press the Revan novel(s) -which I haven't read- have got, I guess I understand why it's the story I liked least. BTW, Hurlshot is a long time SWTOR player from what I've read, I'm guessing he's familiar with The Foundry/Maelstrom Prison and SoR plotlines. Jedi Knight story was written by Hall Hood and Drew Karpyshyn, I believe Hood is more responsible for Chapter 1 and Karpyshyn for Chapter 2 & 3. I played KOTOR 2 back in 2011 when I was "preparing" to play SWTOR, I don't really have a problem with the story they told, but I think fans do wrong by holding up KOTOR 2 narrative as the end all be all of the games based around the Old Republic Era. Darth Traya tells you a lot of things about Revan, mostly it's her opinion, since I pointed out on other discussion that she wasn't with Revan during the Mandalorian Wars or the Jedi Civil War, so what she says is what she believed about him. In any case, even if Traya was right about Revan, there is not really much development of his character in SWTOR, he appears here and there, but the MMO is focused on the new generation of heroes. Also the other Sith Lords on KOTOR 2 are abominations with barely any humanity left in them, pretty much a mockery of what Siths really are.

Shadow of Revan is in no way KOTOR 3, in order to elaborate I gotta go into a bit of spoiler territory, so keep reading at your own risk. Drew Karpyshyn, lead writer for KOTOR 1, was brought in mid way through swtor development to tie some of the plot of SWTOR to KOTOR 1, his biggest contributions were to the Jedi Knight Story chapter 2 & 3, and that's the reason it is considered the actual continuation of the KOTOR saga (including the novel). He also wrote two Flashpoints (basically dungeons) one for republic where you free Revan from a stasis prison and a second one where you play as Empire, trying to stop Revan master plan to basically mass genocide 90% of the Imperial population, at the end of that Flashpoint, Revan dies apparently. And wrote a small quest chain in one of the early planets, where you find something called The Order of Revan, a small cult to worship Revan when he was a Sith Lord, and infiltrate it. As far as I know that's where Drew Karpyshyn contributions to SWTOR ended, fast forward a few years and Charles Boyd, new lead writer for swtor, picks up the small, secretive Order of Revan and turns it into a full blown faction capable of rivaling The Empire and The Republic, they are being led Revan "reborn", who apparently was able to dodge death in the flashpoint where you kill him a few years back. So yes, that expansion deals with Revan, but it's in no way a continuation of the KOTOR story, it's no KOTOR 3, if anything it follows on the plots of the Jedi Knight story, the two Flashpoints, and the Oder of Revan stories that were explored in vanilla SWTOR.

I think you have some extra letters there. Well, Alanschu (if you remember him) worked QA for SWTOR and back before the game was released, he said that content-wise the game was effectively KotOR 3, 4, 5 and 6. Having completed all stories, it's hard to disagree with that, it's just that the content was presented in the typical MMO soul-crushing grind format. Now with the (more or less) perpetual 12x XP bonus for subscribers and as the gear kinks have been ironed out, it's possible to play through the story and ignore all multiplayer content, the boring planetary quest lines, and PVP, making it for all intents and purposes a single player experience. Hi, I wanted to clarify something regarding this point, I'm a big swtor fan, I have several max lvl characters, but most importantly I've been following this game since 2009-2010, and the Whole "SWTOR = KOTOR 3, 4, 5, 6..." line was something pretty much cooked up by Bioware marketing and was parroted by many devs like Daniel Erickson leading up to launch. This is not to say that SWTOR is bad or anything, but that line in particular is pure marketing talk by folks who just want to sell you the game and repeated by the fans. If you want a more honest opinion, you should listen to what Drew Karpyshyn had to say about SWTOR a couple of years after launch. He described SWTOR as a "spiritual succesor" to KOTOR but clarified that it was not a continuation of "The Revan Saga", in fact he pointed out that if people wanted a conclussion to that saga and wanted to learn the fates of Revan, The Exile and their companions, they should read the Revan tie-in novel. So in short: Revan novel = Kotor 3 and the conclusion to the trilogy. SWTOR, Jedi Knight Story = Kotor 4 The other class stories, while they stand on their own, they are not even related to KOTOR 1 & 2 as far as I can tell, for example the Bounty Hunter mingles with the mandalorians a lot, is there any mention of Canderous/Mandalore the Preserver? Not that I've heard of. Yes, most of the stories are pretty good, and they are set in the same era, but the Jedi Knight story is, for the most part, the one that carries on the plot of KOTOR. Sith Warrior and Consular touch on that plot a little bit, but Jedi Knight is the true continuation of the Revan novel. So I understand when Kotor fans are upset that they never actually got Kotor 3, they only got a novel. Someone gave me that example of wacthing "Empire Strikes" back and being really excited for how the story is going to end, but the next movie actually takes place 300 years later when Luke, Leia and Han are dead but Sidious is still alive, and if you really want to know what happened with Luke you should go read the "Return fo the Jedi" tie-in novel, of course people are going to feel cheated out of the story they were expecting.