Power of classes (Realism vs. Filling unlimited power)

[Ulquiorra]

What do you fink about power limits in eternyty shoud it be like jrpg 1 hit everythng burns or more realistic ?

Edited December 12, 2012 by Ulquiorra

[Gfted1]

I want to be able to lay waste to continents and slay gods, but Im willing to wait for the expansion to get there.

[Barothmuk]

I hate the player-character being some ridiculously overpowered, uber badarse, demi-god. I'd rather keep them as grounded as possible.

[Jojobobo]

"All classes should be balanced, and should have abilities that progress in accordance to the challenge they are presented with." (Cain 17:12-15)

 

Of course I'm joking, that quote wasn't by Tim Cain and he isn't really bible worthy (well, maybe he isn't) but I think my sentiment sums up the features of a nice functional class system quite well.

[Tsuga C]

Let those who desire god-like power find something else to play--perhaps some sort of superhero game where over-the-top silliness is par for the course. I'm hoping Obsidian keeps P.E. on a far more even keel.

[LadyCrimson]

I often like the option to feel somewhat uber powerful, if I choose to play the game that way. But I don't want them to be uber powerful no matter how I play. If that makes sense.

 

eg, the best rpg's for me are the ones where I can purposely build weak characters if I want, but also can purposely build very strong characters if I want. Games that pigeon-hole "power" too much end up feeling too restrictive for my liking.

[Wirdjos]

I want to be able to get ridiculously powerful over the course of the game+expanisions.

I like starting out pitifully weak and growing into this awesome godlike force slowly and with reason. I don't mind there still being something stronger than me, I just want to be able to one-hit (or outright ignore) the things that were killing me when I started. I enjoy that climb and ending with godlike power is the perfect climax to that journey.

 

The story should work with it though. There needs to be an explanation for why I've been allowed to become so strong and people should really recognize the fact that I am so strong. The latter is important even if the actual power gain is relatively even. If I do all of these great deeds, deeds that are normally done over an RPG, and it's widely known that I am that guy who killed that scary thing, people should be afraid. I shouldn't be willingly attacked by random level 1 minion #7000 while I'm wearing a god for a hat.

[SophosTheWise]

I hate the whole demi-god stuff. So basically most RPGs nowadays aren't for me. I love the Souls series though and Dragon's Dogma. That's my favourite power level. Just because you can work magic and know a few tricks with your swords and bows doesn't mean your enemies are weak.

[Tamerlane]

I think they've said that the campaign should end with you at roughly the same power as in the first BG? I think? Suits me just fine. There's a certain charm to throwing on power armour and going crazy with a gatling laser, but I think for most people, the fondest memories come from barely scraping by, living from stim to stim, holy****thatguydroppeda gun I'm saved!

 

Anyway, I favour everyone in the party being roughly equal in power but not necessarily in the same situations.

[Lephys]

There's got to be some limit to your power. It might be that you're quite powerful (as a Mage, for example), but that hostile creatures are relatively powerful as well. But, if you're going around as a god, deflecting swords with your skin and walking through lava and destroying mountains by blinking, then what could possibly be challenging your abilities?

 

"This evil guy's causing ALL KINDS of trouble in the world!"

 

"u_u... I just willed the world out of existence and built my own, where there aren't any evil guys... GAME COMPLETE!"

 

I think it should be balanced in such a way that even the easy stuff starts out more challenging in the beginning, but by the end of the game, the hardest stuff in the game has dropped from impossible to fairly challenging (assuming the maximum amount of majestic power you can achieve is achieved.)

[LadyCrimson]

There's got to be some limit to your power. It might be that you're quite powerful (as a Mage, for example), but that hostile creatures are relatively powerful as well. But, if you're going around as a god, deflecting swords with your skin and walking through lava and destroying mountains by blinking, then what could possibly be challenging your abilities?

I don't think most people want to be able to lay waste to the entire land by blinking. But there should (imo) be a sense of major progression to your character. That eventually, depending on what skills, stats, gear you have chosen to use, you at least have the potential to be mighty in combat ... if you manage to hit the enemy, of course.

 

Difficulty isn't only/entirely dependent on how powerful your attacks can be.

[Sacred_Path]

mid-game is the only game as far as RPGs go, yo. Who said a story needs a beginning (peasant) and an end (superhero peasant) ?

[AGX-17]

Well it's a fantasy game (fantasy implies unrealistic, imaginary,) centered around souls, a metaphysical concept that has no basis in reason or rational science. So there's not really any realism to be found from the start.

 

 

....Also the word is "one." "Won" is the past-tense of "win," and also the South Korean unit of currency.

 

 

That said, there should be no Bethesda-style, balance-free power/metagaming. No character and no class should ever be able to become close to being the best at everything with maxed-out attributes, skills and derived stats like in a Bethesda game.

Edited December 13, 2012 by AGX-17

[Kaz]

the fondest memories come from barely scraping by, living from stim to stim, holy****thatguydroppeda gun I'm saved!

This. I've always felt RPGs were the most fun (at least combat wise) when you're just starting out. It's strange though because picking up every small shield and selling it for a few coins = not fun, yet it's the barely-getting-by feel that made it so satisfying. Maybe it's because it's easier to balance the game at the start (esp in open world games) since devs have a good idea of how capable the player is at that point. Another reason might be the sense of real danger in every battle due to your character being so weak (an extreme case being Baldur's Gate where a few unlucky rolls got you killed in a hurry). Battles tend to loose tension mid-late game because aside from the occasional boss fight, you're just mowing through mobs left and right.

 

Anyway back on topic, I think it's possible to design rich and interesting content without going epic level with everything. I'd rather have believable characters because it's more impactful when they accomplish hard tasks - that's doesn't mean you can't be fighting crazy things from time to time. BG2's unseeing eye quest is a good example where characters could defeat a powerful foe with the aid of a legendary artifact.

Using this kind of design allows you to slay dragons while still keeping goblins relevant. Not saying all bosses should be designed like this, just pointing out a tool available to the devs. Anyway, believable, down to earth embellished with rich and interesting details gets my vote.

[AGX-17]

the fondest memories come from barely scraping by, living from stim to stim, holy****thatguydroppeda gun I'm saved!

This. I've always felt RPGs were the most fun (at least combat wise) when you're just starting out. It's strange though because picking up every small shield and selling it for a few coins = not fun, yet it's the barely-getting-by feel that made it so satisfying. Maybe it's because it's easier to balance the game at the start (esp in open world games) since devs have a good idea of how capable the player is at that point. Another reason might be the sense of real danger in every battle due to your character being so weak (an extreme case being Baldur's Gate where a few unlucky rolls got you killed in a hurry). Battles tend to loose tension mid-late game because aside from the occasional boss fight, you're just mowing through mobs left and right.

 

It's not really strange. The best parts of games are usually the beginnings because you have so much unknown adventures to look forward to. The fact that it's often more challenging is just a bonus. The challenge in late game is too often rooted in tedium, excessively long end-game dungeons/levels or might simply not even be present (Fallout 3 lol.)

Edited December 13, 2012 by AGX-17

[Kaz]

@AGX-17

Could be a factor, I've experienced this in titles where I've had multiple play-throughs though. Could be that I simply enjoy making the most out of limited resources. Items for example, feel diluted and pointless when you're showered with them mid-late game.

[Umberlin]

I find it funny to look at the poll wanting Fighters to be magical, when people were popping blood vessels in their heads over the Monk having visually supernatural aspects enhancing their physical prowess.

[Gfted1]

40% want to be normal or weak?

 

Let those who desire to be Joe Average find something else to play--perhaps some sort of Sims game where being mundane is par for the course. I'm hoping Obsidian makes P.E. a far more entertaing game.

[brownypoints]

Normal and weak FTW!

Becoming OP is usually the time I start a new play-through actually.

[DreamDancer]

40% want to be normal or weak?

 

Let those who desire to be Joe Average find something else to play--perhaps some sort of Sims game where being mundane is par for the course. I'm hoping Obsidian makes P.E. a far more entertaing game.

 

I don't understand where people get the notion that having a character that isn't super powerful or even god like is equal to him being weak or average. I assume we are talking power visible in game mechanics, right? Like typically in combat situations where the fighter can later on slice through half a dozen ogres simultaneously or the mage levels whole buildings with his spells. While I admit that it can be fun to be able to do that, the true power rise I want to see is usually a bit more subtle and hidden.

 

I could care less for godlike spells or abilities if my character's power is visible in the reaction of the people he deals with. Seeing how much weight his words carry, how many he can influence with a rousing speech. Or the way people may cower based on the reputation for an especially nefarious deed he did some time ago, or maybe the other way around when people shed heartfelt tears of gratitude for a good deed.

 

I will agree that there need to be some sort of power progression to a point where the character can truly shine, but you can keep this entirely within the realm of "realism" without the need to resort to ridiculously powerful abilities. Think of something like the Godfather. Physically a bit frail but emanating power like crazy.

 

But yeah, knowing these kind of game chances are that the devs will go for flashy. Not that it's wrong or anything. Anyone remember that late end game spell from PS:T with its own animation sequence where that huge meteor crashed down on the planet? Hilarious. And Lina would have been jealous

[Gfted1]

40% want to be normal or weak?

 

Let those who desire to be Joe Average find something else to play--perhaps some sort of Sims game where being mundane is par for the course. I'm hoping Obsidian makes P.E. a far more entertaing game.

 

I don't understand where people get the notion that having a character that isn't super powerful or even god like is equal to him being weak or average.

 

Its right there in the poll choice you selected:

 

Everywons power must be as realistic as possible (allmost all of them shoud be normal or week)(12 votes [41.38%] - View)

[Darth Trethon]

I'm all about unlimited power for certain classes such as the Cipher who can force his/her will over anyone. At low level then maybe some very powerful boss enemies might have a 1% chance to resist your will while at high level even the gods will be powerless before you. Of course getting to play such a class shouldn't be easy so perhaps only unlock the class after the player beat the game on a high difficulty or something like that.

[Monte Carlo]

I know I'm swimming against the tide but I *like* having a few gimped classes that are traditionally weaker and / or more difficult to play. Classes you have to master.

 

Like my strange half-orc cleric / thief build in BG2 which was lots of fun.

 

A class like the original 1E AD&D Bard would be neat, a sort of Easter Egg bizarro class for hard-core completionists.

[DreamDancer]

40% want to be normal or weak?

 

Let those who desire to be Joe Average find something else to play--perhaps some sort of Sims game where being mundane is par for the course. I'm hoping Obsidian makes P.E. a far more entertaing game.

 

I don't understand where people get the notion that having a character that isn't super powerful or even god like is equal to him being weak or average.

 

Its right there in the poll choice you selected:

 

Everywons power must be as realistic as possible (allmost all of them shoud be normal or week)(12 votes [41.38%] - View)

 

Yes, but that's what I don't understand. Power does not need to be tied to combat performance, and I assume that is what the OP means when he talks about characters being weak or average. As I explained before, power can be expressed in different ways but when people talk about powerful they usually only mean combat. I picked that choice because I don't have a problem with "realistic" levels of combat prowess, but only if there is a power progression elsewhere, in the way I described.

[mstark]

I know I'm swimming against the tide but I *like* having a few gimped classes that are traditionally weaker and / or more difficult to play. Classes you have to master.

 

Like my strange half-orc cleric / thief build in BG2 which was lots of fun.

 

A class like the original 1E AD&D Bard would be neat, a sort of Easter Egg bizarro class for hard-core completionists.

This.