Jump to content

Disengaging from combat  

118 members have voted

  1. 1. Would you like P:E to let you disengage and run away from a fight that's going badly?

    • Yes, I'm a total coward.
    • No way. Victory or death.


Recommended Posts

...lives to run another day.

 

There's a pretty strong convention in cRPG's that every combat encounter is to the death. Once combat starts, only one side walks off the battlefield, unless there's a specific circumstances that defines the encounter as nonlethal (e.g. arena fight or duel). Roguelikes with permadeath are the major exception. They pretty much have to be.

 

I like that mechanic. Escaping an ambush or a fight for which you're unprepared can feel like a real accomplishment, and coming back to, ahem, sort things out feels that much sweeter.

 

I would like to see a "disengage from combat" mechanic in P:E. It would make Trial of Iron and other higher-challenge modes that much more feasible. Even cooler if sometimes enemies took any knocked-out party members prisoner instead of killing them outright. So you could regroup, lick your wounds, and mount a daring rescue.

 

That would probably be pretty hard to write in as a mechanic, and would certainly not be universally applicable. A wolfpack, for example, isn't likely to take prisoners.

 

Thoughts?

  • Like 12

I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com

Link to post
Share on other sites

people on this forum really know how to make polls

 

 

Disengaging or running away are nice options to have, but OTOH there's believability. If your party doesn't move much faster than they do so they lose track of you it kind of begs belief. With most monsters I'd assume they'll not disengage from combat because they want to rob you/ eat you/ are stupidly violent/ magically programmed to kill.

 

Now skirting enemies or sneaking past them is a different matter entirely, that should be a viable option often.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites
Disengaging or running away are nice options to have, but OTOH there's believability. If your party doesn't move much faster than they do so they lose track of you it kind of begs belief. With most monsters I'd assume they'll not disengage from combat because they want to rob you/ eat you/ are stupidly violent/ magically programmed to kill.

 

How's that? I'd say most of the time combat happens because (a) you're attacking someone else's territory, (b) they're attacking your territory, © they want to eat/kill/rob you or (d) you want to eat/kill/rob them. "Stupidly violent" covers all of those (or not), I think. The magically programmed assassin (e) is, I hope, a relatively rare occurrence. Otherwise it would be banal.

 

None of these are necessarily "to the death" scenarios. In case (a), the defender would want to repel you but probably not pursue you once you've retreated, in (b) there's no reason for them to pursue you once you've retreated, in © they would give up the pursuit if you're too much trouble to catch, and in (d) combat would end once you stop pursuing them. Even the magically programmed-to-kill assassin might want to give up on an encounter and try again later if you evade it long enough.

  • Like 1

I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com

Link to post
Share on other sites
How's that? I'd say most of the time combat happens because (a) you're attacking someone else's territory, (b) they're attacking your territory, © they want to eat/kill/rob you or (d) you want to eat/kill/rob them. "Stupidly violent" covers all of those (or not), I think. The magically programmed assassin (e) is, I hope, a relatively rare occurrence. Otherwise it would be banal.

 

None of these are necessarily "to the death" scenarios. In case (a), the defender would want to repel you but probably not pursue you once you've retreated, in (b) there's no reason for them to pursue you once you've retreated, in © they would give up the pursuit if you're too much trouble to catch, and in (d) combat would end once you stop pursuing them. Even the magically programmed-to-kill assassin might want to give up on an encounter and try again later if you evade it long enough.

 

You are right that it's usually your party that's one the initiative, but that's more of a limitation of games/ convenience. Usually you will walk into a spot where there are bandits, but the implication is of course that they waited for you/ ambushed you, not that they are friendly bandits who just wanted to be left alone. Same goes for monsters (yes let's say that it was you who wandered into their territory, but that might not make a difference. An enraged bear will follow you if it feels provoked, that should be even more true for magical beasts (case a). Case b I think should be very very rare, how many instances have you seen in games where your wandering(!) band occupied a space that was coveted by someone else who just wanted to stand around in that same place? Case c is exactly the problem I was talking about, you have to be much faster than they are. That's not always a blessing (high movement speed for the player results in kiting, for example).Case d means enemies fleeing from combat, yes that would actually be nice and realistic (in some cases, like a minimum of intelligence in the monster).

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm a total coward, really, but I fight to the death. In previous games there hasn't been much impact in "running away", it is time consuming to run away. "Damn I walked down this entire dungeon just to fail, hard, and now I have to go out of it and run away from it til I'm stronger..... nah, I'll just keep saving/reloading til I win". However, if mechanically there was some sort of "reward" (a "reward" can be that everyone is laughing at you because you failed or whatever, or become really angry because the Necromancer is still creating skeletons that are exterminating the villagers on a day to day basis).

 

Something happening and reacting because you ran away. Though these should be limited and not for every single encounter.

 

You enter a hallway through a door, walk down the hallway and face a group of bandits.

 

IF engaged [bandit]

Walk on trigger [Entrance]: Bandit says "Coward!" (Activate once)

 

^^^this is a "reward" as well. Something "happening". It could also "trigger" you, the player, to turn around and decide to fight the battle instead of running from it. More of that stuff please :)

Edited by Osvir
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe I've been watching too many nature documentaries lately. It's been cool to see the way prey evades predators, among other things. Like a mountain goat finding a spot on a cliff face that's too steep for a snow leopard to reach; after a while, the snow leopard goes away to find something else to eat.

 

I disagree with you about case (a). I believe that bears -- and most other creatures -- defending their lairs or homes would not normally pursue you once they've chased you off, if for no other reason than that it would leave their lair undefended against the next band of murder hobos that comes along.

 

 

I agree that case (b) ought to be rare. That said, there have been area-defense scenarios in cRPG's. Redcliff Village in DA:O to pick a relatively recent example; that one wasn't even story-critical. I can't see any logical reason the party couldn't have just snuck out from that if it started to go badly. (Well, other than that it was unlikely to go that badly since it was a pretty easy fight.)

 

 

With case ©, you don't necessarily have to be faster. There are other ways you could escape a fight. Maybe you can retreat behind a door and bar it. Perhaps the monster can't climb as well as your party and you can get onto a ledge it can't reach. Maybe you can cast an invisibility spell and tiptoe away while it's looking for you. Maybe you even have teleport magic that'll let you pop out of trouble. Maybe you have some smoke grenades that'll distract it long enough for you to get out of range. Perhaps the monster is too big to squeeze into a hole you can fit into. Perhaps there's a magical barrier it can't cross but you can. Perhaps if you scatter some caltrops or something else to slow it down a bit so you can get away. Just to pick a few ideas at random.

Edited by PrimeJunta

I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com

Link to post
Share on other sites
I disagree with you about case (a). I believe that bears -- and most other creatures -- defending their lairs or homes would not normally pursue you once they've chased you off, if for no other reason than that it would leave their lair undefended against the next band of murder hobos that comes along.

 

And even if they don't run away I wouldn't like to see something like this :S (important imo)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VI7olEfavHE

 

EDIT: The author of this video tried to be funny with the title, complain about in the YouTube comments, not here please.

Edited by Osvir
Link to post
Share on other sites
With case ©, you don't necessarily have to be faster. There are other ways you could escape a fight. Perhaps the monster can't climb as well as your party and you can get onto a ledge it can't reach. Maybe you can cast an invisibility spell and tiptoe away while it's looking for you. Maybe you even have teleport magic that'll let you pop out of trouble. Maybe you have some smoke grenades that'll distract it long enough for you to get out of range. Perhaps the monster is too big to squeeze into a hole you can fit into. Perhaps there's a magical barrier it can't cross but you can. Perhaps if you scatter some caltrops or something else to slow it down a bit so you can get away. Just to pick a few ideas at random.

 

Climbing probably won't be in, but big monsters could get stuck in ledges. I was mostly thinking about running away, but you're right that there are other escape options. As long as you don't have too many of those items/ spells that help you escape. It should be a rare occurence and reserved for either those times where you're ambushed and outnumbered or when a fight has been going particularly badly. Also disengaging from bosses shouldn't be an option IMO.

 

I also pulled the bear example out of my butt. I'm not informed about how far the average bear would pursue you if it was pissed off ;)

Edited by Sacred_Path
Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know to be honest haven't experienced it myself, but from reading comments and looking it up it seems that this necromancer will follow you around (it seems to be a bug/glitch thing, might be a part of design as well.. I read something that you have to take down this guy in some special way because he respawns even if you kill him).

 

I also pulled the bear example out of my butt. I'm not informed about how far the average grizzly bear would pursue

 

Probably like this (I edited in "grizzly" and did the S thing over average in the quote). Though, this is Hollywood:

 

Most bears (animals) are rather docile, shy, and friendly (towards us, they can be pretty nervous around us as well, which is totally legit considering how we treat many other species), but like all primitive animals if you tick them off or go too close to their cubs they are going to be mean.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6Xo21L0ybE

Edited by Osvir
Link to post
Share on other sites

In the games that primarily are inspriring PE (the IE games), one could run away, but you'd be chased (as it should be). In fact, I'd say it was too easy to run away in the IE games most of the time. One could most always take all their characters (if they weren't asleep, confused, dominated, charmed, etc), to the edge of the map and travel to the next 'zone' thereby getting away from your pursuers. This was especially gamey and goofy when you ran out of buildings. As well as in the games where you moved way fast (Icewind Dale (The original BG really did have the best movement speed)). Though sometimes NPCs would pursue you from floor to floor, this unfortunately wasn't always the case.

 

What I'd like to see is the pursuers chase you at times across zones. Get away from me you will not pesky human player person! I will chase you to the ends of the earth (or whatever it's called) and smite the!!

 

There were be some exceptions to NPC hot pursuit of the player of course, as it wouldn't make sense for all NPCs to do this. Some NPCs would only chase so far, other NPCs wouldn't chase much at all, and some NPCs (someone you *really* tick off, and especially the mindless ones) would chase you forever. Hungry ghoul see meat!! It's gonna chase you until you way outrun it, it gets distracted by other meat, or you finally turn and fight it.

 

A runaway mechanic as you're asking for OP would be straight up easy mode. If there's anything I don't want to see in this game it's easy mode. Excepting of course in the actual 'easy mode' of the game.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm completely fine with having to flee for your life from time to time. In fact, items, skills, and spells can be built around the idea of being able to get the **** out of dodge. What's more is this mechanic could be used for creative use of items and spells. For example, throw a bunch of caltrops behind you as you flee, use a smoke bomb to create cover (useful both against archers and to help disappear), cast a wall of fire between you and our pursuers, cast a grease spell, etc.

Edited by Keyrock
  • Like 2

rowsdower_sig.jpg.0f13980282a9229af0f1609eb6dee060.jpg
I wonder if there is beer on the sun

Link to post
Share on other sites

It would absolutely no sense for me not to have the option to flee combat. It should never be forced (unless for story purposes, and then rarely I hope) but the player shouldn't be forced to die just because they made a tactical error or tried an encounter/area they weren't quite ready for yet.

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

I just hope that guards will see me running for my life and make a sensible choice. "Hm, that poor little hobbit is being pursued by the half ogres we suspect might have ties with the local criminal underworld. Let's block his way to tell him about how I used to be an adventurer like him."

Edited by TMTVL
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

It would absolutely no sense for me not to have the option to flee combat. It should never be forced (unless for story purposes, and then rarely I hope) but the player shouldn't be forced to die just because they made a tactical error or tried an encounter/area they weren't quite ready for yet.

 

I think it's important to view a potential "flee" mechanic in light if save/reload behavior as well. On one hand, players may argue that there's no point to flee and you might as well fight to the death because you can just reload and either try again or wait until you're higher level; the abstract issue with this view is that it's metagame strategy. It'd be very interesting, IMO, to have an actual flee-regroup mechanic developed to off-set that and to also offer combat flavor:

 

I tend to view reloading, especially excessively, as shifting gameplay from the role-play aspect into true metagaming, so I'm in agreement with Josh's assessment that tactical error in the heat of battle is better than reload-knowledge. Rather than using save/reload as a measure of difficulty, imminent death with the possibility of escape seems to be a better option--for example, if you're just completely unprepared or half your party is down, I'd rather the survivors to be able to flee and regroup without doing a reload. If this means someone is left behind, that may make it more interesting too.

  • Like 3

The KS Collector's Edition does not include the Collector's Book.

Which game hook brought you to Project Eternity and interests you the most?

PE will not have co-op/multiplayer, console, or tablet support (sources): [0] [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7]

Write your own romance mods because there won't be any in PE.

"But what is an evil? Is it like water or like a hedgehog or night or lumpy?" -(Digger)

"Most o' you wanderers are but a quarter moon away from lunacy at the best o' times." -Alvanhendar (Baldur's Gate 1)

Link to post
Share on other sites

With random encounters, idealy the game would remember what encounter you ran away from and add it to subsequent encounter rolls with a runaway count. If this count surpassed a certain value, the enemies would have random names generated for them and npcs in villages and towns would start knowing and gossiping about the player's nemesis. This would result in a diminishing reputation until the player beats the encounter.

Unobtrusively informing you about my new ebook (which you should feel free to read and shower with praise).

Link to post
Share on other sites

One of the elements that can make the tabletop experience interesting is the possibility of being captured. Having your equipment stripped away and having to battle with your wits alone can be enlivening. However, I've never seen this done well inside a cRPG; it usually feels a little contrived. Instead, many games just resort to using the mechanic for their opening scene.

"It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."

Link to post
Share on other sites

One of the elements that can make the tabletop experience interesting is the possibility of being captured. Having your equipment stripped away and having to battle with your wits alone can be enlivening. However, I've never seen this done well inside a cRPG; it usually feels a little contrived. Instead, many games just resort to using the mechanic for their opening scene.

The only problem with that is it immediately favors certain types of characters over others. Rogues, monks, and casters would excel in this situation because monks will essentially lose little or no combat effectiveness without their gear, likewise with casters, and rogues can sneak through the place and avoid combat altogether. Warrior types are immediately at a heavy disadvantage since they are so gear dependent. I'm still definitely in favor of this scenario, though.

  • Like 1

rowsdower_sig.jpg.0f13980282a9229af0f1609eb6dee060.jpg
I wonder if there is beer on the sun

Link to post
Share on other sites

Avoiding/"losing" enemy attention should definitely be an option, I think. Especially in stealthy scenarios, such as sneaking into or out-of a hostile-controlled structure or space. I hate that, despite your mastery of stealth, once someone's caught a glimpse of your Rogue, they somehow know where you are forever (in a lot of RPGs). Also, the aggro range of all other hostiles is suddenly tripled, even when you're not even in sense-range of the spotters. It just seems like, no matter how its handled, the enemies become superhumanly skilled at hunting you down or continuing to detect you, rather than a more balanced "Everyone's on alert, so it's more difficult to avoid all of their completely-normal sense ranges" approach.

 

So, "Oh crap, a bear! Do not want!" is totally fine, and it should definitely be feasible to "escape" in that scenario. I don't know how worried I am about being able to give that bear the worst day of its life, then decide that after 5 minutes of battle you just want to get away. That should be pretty tough, methinks. I think even a primal animal is going to be driven into "It's me or you now" mode at that point, rather than "Well, I'm just trying to get you away from my cubs."

Edited by Lephys
  • Like 2

Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

Link to post
Share on other sites

^ not to mention that in hardcore modes where you fail - you die - you dont get to save, it would be a real pain to be forced to fight to the death in a losing battle with no option to escape

The words freedom and liberty, are diminishing the true meaning of the abstract concept they try to explain. The true nature of freedom is such, that the human mind is unable to comprehend it, so we make a cage and name it freedom in order to give a tangible meaning to what we dont understand, just as our ancestors made gods like Thor or Zeus to explain thunder.

 

-Teknoman2-

What? You thought it was a quote from some well known wise guy from the past?

 

Stupidity leads to willful ignorance - willful ignorance leads to hope - hope leads to sex - and that is how a new generation of fools is born!


We are hardcore role players... When we go to bed with a girl, we roll a D20 to see if we hit the target and a D6 to see how much penetration damage we did.

 

Modern democracy is: the sheep voting for which dog will be the shepherd's right hand.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not really against the ability to escape combat. I don't want to see it implemented with that weird, artificially coded "flee" mechanic.

 

Bandits: "We've totally got you surrounded, and half your party's toast. FINISH HIM OFF!"

Player: "Oh crap." *clicks "Flee"*

Bandit Leader: "Wait, hold up guys! I know he only went 25 feet away, but he has invoked the holy rite of Flee!"

Bandits: *GASP*... *Fearfully all make attoning/defensive holy gestures*. "Crap, I didn't realize! We almost acted like we would have were he simply still moving within combat... you know, 'cause he's kinda still inside our outpost and all."

Bandit Leader: "I know, I know... look, just pretend there was a good reason for us to not chase him around that corner, all right? The rules are the rules!"

 

Heh. As long as it's more along the lines of "Oh good, I managed to misdirect them enough to lose them. We should be okay under these stairs for a few minutes to briefly regroup, but they'll be looking for us now," I'm cool with it. It should just be well-done like that, not a magic mulligan.

 

Hell, you could even have some pretty cool scenarios arise out of that. Maybe you're down to two party members, a Rogue and a Mage. The Rogue is wounded and Feigns Death, convincingly (because he's awesome). The Mage runs off down a corridor, leading the rest of the attackers away from the defeated party majority (and the perfectly-okay Rogue), turns a corner, then renders himself invisible. After the attackers pour into the room and become baffled at its "emptiness," the Mage quietly makes his way back out of the room and back to the rest of the party, where the Rogue has gotten back up and begun bandaging folk and nursing them back to consciousness. Now the Mage joins in. Queue regroup.

 

The attackers would probably perform some kind of search around the area where the Mage vanished for a few minutes, but they wouldn't just stay there for as long as you like. Therefore, it's not quite an "Okay, we're totally out of combat, and can try again at our leisure," but you can still regroup, even if it's not with the entire party back to completely undamaged status.

  • Like 3

Should we not start with some Ipelagos, or at least some Greater Ipelagos, before tackling a named Arch Ipelago? 6_u

Link to post
Share on other sites
I think it's important to view a potential "flee" mechanic in light if save/reload behavior as well. On one hand, players may argue that there's no point to flee and you might as well fight to the death because you can just reload and either try again or wait until you're higher level; the abstract issue with this view is that it's metagame strategy. It'd be very interesting, IMO, to have an actual flee-regroup mechanic developed to off-set that and to also offer combat flavor:

I do that all the time in games. Hell I am making a profession out of it in Far Cry 3 right now. Earlier in the week in BG Enhanced Ed I did it to a bunch of Ankegs I couldn't beat all in one rush.

 

This is just another good reason I should have the option to run away. It can be a viable tactic for winning fights and or setting up traps/ambushes.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...