Update #33: PayPal Ends Soon! Current Developments

[Cantousent]

I was thinking all morning about this, and I had an idea. It's not really original, as some form of it has been floating around in these threads the whole time.

 

The argument is between worship=power and power independent of worship. Obsidz could simply include both ideas, but the plan to accommodate all parties isn't always ideal. It's more important that the game is good than the devs accommodate my ideas. So I reject a simple approach that gives everyone what he wants because it might mean we ultimately don't get the one thing we want: a great game.

 

...But the argument itself might be beneficial. Many folks, such as Morgulon and somna above, seem to entertain a variety of ideas their own preference notwithstanding. Why not make the world truly vibrant and realistic by putting in competing evidence? It gives an organic source of debate grown straight out of the setting. Even better, don't give it parity. By that, I mean, make the evidence clear and compelling that worship equates to power. Fine. That's a great basis from which to push back at the idea.

 

Then, give some evidence, subtle and difficult to find but equally compelling, that worship need not always equate to power. It's like Newtonian physics and quantum physics. Newtonian physics work well in human time and scale, but there was evidence of something beyond that.

 

By making Worship=power the standard, you're setting up something familiar, giving the number crunchers a reliable way to calculate most of the power, and providing an assumptive framework that functions just fine for the bulk of in-game society. By giving real evidence, albeit difficult to find, to the contrary, you're providing some mystery, giving reason for investigation and debate, and making a whole spread of viable quests.

 

Anyhow, just a thought. I'm already getting into wall of text territory, so I'll leave it at that.

[Sacred_Path]

Gqaal Dal'ub, God of Incessant Strife & Retarded Arguments.

 

I admit this idea was influenced by several forums I frequent.

[Somna]

I was thinking all morning about this, and I had an idea. It's not really original, as some form of it has been floating around in these threads the whole time.

 

The argument is between worship=power and power independent of worship. Obsidz could simply include both ideas, but the plan to accommodate all parties isn't always ideal. It's more important that the game is good than the devs accommodate my ideas. So I reject a simple approach that gives everyone what he wants because it might mean we ultimately don't get the one thing we want: a great game.

 

...But the argument itself might be beneficial. Many folks, such as Morgulon and somna above, seem to entertain a variety of ideas their own preference notwithstanding. Why not make the world truly vibrant and realistic by putting in competing evidence? It gives an organic source of debate grown straight out of the setting. Even better, don't give it parity. By that, I mean, make the evidence clear and compelling that worship equates to power. Fine. That's a great basis from which to push back at the idea.

 

Then, give some evidence, subtle and difficult to find but equally compelling, that worship need not always equate to power. It's like Newtonian physics and quantum physics. Newtonian physics work well in human time and scale, but there was evidence of something beyond that.

 

By making Worship=power the standard, you're setting up something familiar, giving the number crunchers a reliable way to calculate most of the power, and providing an assumptive framework that functions just fine for the bulk of in-game society. By giving real evidence, albeit difficult to find, to the contrary, you're providing some mystery, giving reason for investigation and debate, and making a whole spread of viable quests.

 

Anyhow, just a thought. I'm already getting into wall of text territory, so I'll leave it at that.

 

Well, another part of the appeal of the Power = Worshippers concept is that it's really easy to fit in on top of anything else. It's not necessarily mutually exclusive to power independent of worship, and can easily be subverted to something else, as your example gives.

 

For example, you can also have situations like these:

• Deities are set at particular levels of power naturally but have found a way to artificially boost their power by having lots of worshippers. (This may or may not be ... healthy ... to the worshippers.)
  
• Deities feed off of the concepts they represent, so a deity having more worshippers doesn't automatically grant them more power. However, the worshippers are far more likely to engage or cause an activity that would give the deity power, so there's reasons to have the worshippers anyway.
  
• Deities don't draw actual "power" from worship, but having worshippers gives them access to more directly influence the world. People just know it as more worshippers = more power because it is a simple, easy to understand explanation. (This needs a reason why the deity even cares about influencing the world though.)
  

[AGX-17]

I love the idea of a goddess of luck/debauchery, Goddess of the party, and the hangover, the jackpot, and the loser.

 

What does luck have to do with debauchery? Fortune/luck are concepts that go beyond gambling, people curse their misfortune in all aspects of life just as they can feel lucky when they succeed at something. Whether or not you get a hangover or have a party is tangential to luck.

[Voiddrifter13]

Probably already said, But i would like to see a set of gods like the ones from the Dragonlance series of Novels. They have the 3 separate parts (Good,Neutral,Evil) then each is separated by thier individual areas of expertise (theres a good god of war and a bad one.) also alot of the gods have Mates, and their are also Random gods and "Outsider" gods (gods that somehow appeared even though they are outside the means of creation of the other gods.)

[ngreennz]

I hope we won't see belief = power, myself. Torment and Mask of the Betrayer both covered it from two different angles anyway, I'd rather see something new. I expect, given the way souls work, that we'll see something that links gods to the cycle of souls. For example, does the cycle just happen or are there psychopomps who carry souls into and out of the world? (Physical gods seem unlikely to me since I think we heard in a prior update that dead souls went to wherever gods are). Maybe there's a warrior goddess or something that guards the door back into life to make sure that a soul, and not something else, gets to inhabit a new body.

 

The general wonkiness that can happen to souls (fragmenting, co-habitation, etc) makes me think that apotheosis is likely possible, but maybe in more of a buddhist way, where it requires lots of different lifetimes lived. I also like the idea that a few people have had that gods are large accumulations of souls in some way. One take would be two classes of gods, one representing natural processes (Death, weather, fate, the ocean, etc) and another class representing human concepts (war, love, wisdom, luck, etc), the latter group forming gradually to provide a safe harbor for human souls to rest in.

 

One thing I really hope Obsidian does is find a good way to work "institutions of faith" into the setting, though since souls are such a huge deal in the setting they've got to be thinking about it. The catholic church tends to get transplanted a lot, but that's getting a little old. The setting seems to lend itself to Tulkus, for example. The cycle of souls is a good opportunity for significant birth and death rites. Maybe there's a superstition to help your kid attract the kind of soul you want, or repel the messed up ones, and maybe people about to die are given messages to take to the gods, and safeguard the state of their soul.

 

Finally, sin-eaters are cool, and while not directly suggested by the soul thing, could have interesting consequences for the whole cycle, and I've never seen them in a setting before.

[Cantousent]

I agree, ngreennz. Being Catholic myself, I want something new. The problem is that the Catholic Church provides a good template for a hierarchical religious structure. I don't know what the devs are going to do, and they probably don't listen to me anyway :Cant's rueful grin icon: but they'll probably have at least something like the Catholic church. But it would be good if maybe the nature of religion in the world isn't so consolodated that something as large as the Catholic Church exists. Maybe something more along the lines of Islam and Judaism where there are various holy men and teachers but no one overarching power speaking for a huge swath of the population. Of course with soul magic and established divine entities, maybe it's all kinds of funky.

[Gorth]

One thing I really hope Obsidian does is find a good way to work "institutions of faith" into the setting, though since souls are such a huge deal in the setting they've got to be thinking about it.

 

One way to do that is to avoid "modern" monotheistic religions. I hope they will look towards stuff like ancient Celtic beliefs, Mayan and Inca religions, etc. which had one thing in common, they believed in offerings and human sacrifice. The latter is something you could easily (well, relatively), combine with soul mechanics, where you offer up souls to your gods. I don't think Obsidian has really elaborated yet on how much of an interest the pantheon(s) actually take in the lives of mortals?

[Hormalakh]

Just once I'd like to see that the mose powerful god is the least worshipped. He is known for his mercy and patience. He doesn't smite the unbelievers immediately but gives them a lifetime and plenty of chances to be worshipped.

 

his "followers" (who don't really worship him anyway) are just sometimes so crazy - killing people and just causing mayhem- that people don't really know much about this god.

 

edit: oh wait i think arcanum did this. that was cool. except for the followers. something happened to them...

 

i saw someone write "an atheist god".

 

that made me think of a god who doesn't believe that s/he's a god. that'd be interesting. or a god - heh perhaps an omniscient one - that has forgotten that he is a god.

Edited November 30, 2012 by Hormalakh

[Skie Nightfall]

Late 'good update' comment.

[Gyor]

I too agree that a Buddist model makes more sense for this world given the importance.

 

In Buddism (not an expert) its possible to be reincarnated as Gods, but not desirable as its so much harder to achieve Nirvana from a state of bliss and long life.

 

Also in Buddism Gods are mortal, they do grow old and die, but over far, far more vast lengths of time.

 

One of the Gods in Eternity should represent escaping the cycle of reincarnation.

 

Also there should be a God of animals, that manifests in the form of countless unique animal spirits.

 

I also like how Gods in Eternity can have different names and attributes depending on the worshipping culture.

 

Maybe in some Amaua cultures Magran has a different name and is worshipped as both Goddess of fire and Volcanoes.

 

Also how about a God/ess of BDSM that isn't evil. A Goddess of Sensation, pleasure, pain, etc, Cold, Hot,... But different from a Love Goddesses.

 

Maybe a God of natural disasters.

 

Even though there's no evil alignment thier needs to be a darker God for more tiefling like Godlike. Maybe a God of Sin/indulgance or Purgatory, a place that cleans out ones sins before being reincarnated.

 

 

[MrSynaesthete]

Do the developers read 14 pages in? Hopefully.

 

I think an interesting idea would be less a solid being an more an aspect of the fringes of the human condition, like a "Red god" that represents (when you think about) the pretty brutal cycles of killing other organism to acquire their energy/sustenance. Examples of our underlying fear/powerfantasy of this aspect of the human condition are things like the concept of vampires and the eat-heart-gain-strength nonsense. Maybe people "touched" by this god/force could kill/cannibalize other beings and gain some aspect of their abilities.

[rjshae]

I'm hoping that the PE pantheon doesn't try to be too logical about its structure. Historical pantheons are often like extended families with strange, quirky stories, eccentric relatives, and often contradictory, emotion-driven behavior. They aren't organized like a thesaurus with everything laid out just so.

[Neuralshock]

Just spitballing, How about a god based of misfortune?

 

Murphicus the ill-timed?

 

It wouldn't have to be their fault either, that would be up to some mischief god. What I'm talking about is ****-out-of-luck stuff (read: Critfails). A god where serious or minor misfortune carries in their wake, like the character enters a room and by doing so, knocks over a vase of great importance, or not important. or the monk that heals with acupuncture hits a pressure point that causes the target to explode a la HnK.

 

I feel that this could have potential to cause some massive hijinks and really explore the realm of critfails, which are unfortunate, but hilarious sometimes

Edited November 30, 2012 by Neuralshock

[Voltaire]

Pardon if this was already mentioned, but how about including the new god created at the end of BG:TOB? I know that this is not Forgotten Realms and I'm sure there may be IP or copyright limitations, but if it is possible I would love to see some reference, even if only vague or indirect, to the "Bhaalspawn who ascended". Just throwing it out there.

[Farbautisonn]

As long as the gods are flawed, hypocritical, and vindictive (like in most good polytheist pantheons) I really dont care.

 

I want the good gods to have sides that are not so good. A god of good and selfishless deeds might be tormented by a flipside of pride and innocents slain occasionally "loosing it" in some paladin esque crusader fury.

 

A god of victory and glory, should sometimes give victory and glory to those undeserving but more willing to sacrifice and honour his name.

 

A god of Trickery and deceit should be honest in some instances, IE telling the truth about the other gods and their deeds and actions at the most innapropriate times.

 

A god of invincibility and bravery should be slain by the most inconspicuous item or beast, having his bravery falter him at a critical moment.

 

A god of beauty should be shallow and coy, sometimes spitefull and murderous of those that reject her ideals of beauty.

 

 

Im partial to the Norse pantheon where most gods have flipsides that are every bit as unpleasent as the pleasent ones but most oriental polytheist systems have more or less similar charactaristics.

[f2theogle]

Twin siblings, the sun god and the moon goddess. The sun god, the bringer of blinding light, reveals truth wherever he gazes. He remembers all he has seen, and his heart has hardened against us.

 

The moon goddess protects the world from her brother's wrath by hiding our failures from his sight, if only for a time. It is her duty to lay the souls of the dead to rest and forgive us of our sins, since her brother is incapable of any act of love.

 

The devout fear the day when the patience of the moon goddess runs out, when she will no longer shield us from the wrath of her brother. They dare not pray to him, lest they draw his attention. Only fools would ask for his forgiveness.

[Ywerion]

Hmmm what about purely easter egg god, who resides on lost Black Isle shrouded in the mists of Avellone, one of his first sons was eeevil Cain, and only one crazed up priest spreads his legend, that priest is known only as Sawyer and to please this lost god you must sacrifice him nice nugget of Obsidian. Just for fun of it, guys this would be nice easter egg, given that you could find it. Or it is all silly idea and I should stop mixing drinking with sleep deprivation Cheers!

[LordShifu]

Umm I dont know........... but in case you can pray to god so u can get a really good power to use in battle is always welcome..... N as for as worshiping are concerned i prefer angels to gods as they are more closer to you. N as for spirituality and well being are concerned i like it if the Gods are formless and represent chi or energies and that connects everything around brings everything in harmony. So monk may worship many different gods to harness different types of chi and learn to stabilize it in him

[sanian]

"Do you have any crazy or wacky ideas for gods? Share your ideas in this forum thread!"

 

I always thought combining a god of revelry and a god of rain would be fun. As in, every time it rains its 'that god' taking a piss on the world cause his bladder is full to bursting.

[ursustas]

I like an interesting spin on a 'traditional' god of knowledge ..

 

The concept behind it is .. gaining knowledge can be done two ways, firstly by paying the 'iron price' and learning through observation, action and experimentation (experience). The second is by transferring knowledge from a higher power (or perhaps imprinted on tomes/objects/special places/rituals). The problem is.. that when you 'transfer' power you are getting someone elses experience .. and a bit of them comes with the knowledge .. a bit of their emotions, a bit of their essence is tied into that learning .. often this causes a sense that you are not alone, that you have been violated .. and in the worst cases madness/split personalities, etc.

 

The core personality of such a god is someone who is a collector of knowledge .. perhaps they view it as their duty .. perhaps it is simply an obsession. A 'sage' stereotype but with deeper layers of confusion, insanity, unpredictability. Asking questions about common knowlege is likely to be fine, but knowledge known to few is more likely to draw out those deeper personalities.

 

Regarding travelling or wilderness god's ..

 

I also like animal aspects to gods with a link to humanity. The idea of a wild bear coming across a child who has strayed into the deep forest. Exhausted the child can only cry as the bear closes. The bear senses the sorrow and pain in the child and goes against it's nature and protects the child, diging into the frozen earth (bloodying it's paws) and laying partly over the child to keep them warm. Hunters come seeking the missing child and finding the bear and thinking the bear has killed the child disable the bear with mortal wounds while the bear stands over the unconsious child defending it. The child is found beneath the bear to be alive, and one of the hunters (mother to the child), moves close to the injured bear (placing themselves in danger) to end the bears life peacefully. As the bear spirit rises the mother gives thanks to the bear and gives he heart to it, her strong emotions allow the bear spirit to linger .. over the coming years, the village offering prayers to the bear as thanks and out of respect to it saving the child and it becomes empowered. It is a wild god, that stalks the wilderness .. but it now it watches over lone travellers and small parties .. also polar bears rock!

Edited December 2, 2012 by ursustas

[ngreennz]

Atheism doesn't really make sense in a world with active gods where people can actually be discriminated against for the state of their souls, but anti-theism is certainly a possible position, and if they get any screen time, I hope it's not as strawmen or the only reasonable position to which everyone else is willfully blind.

[Clutzy]

No Deities from me this time, just chiming in on different ideas about Deities and a little on worship. I too would like to see something beyond "X worshippers means Y power for God/Goddess who can't live without them". Especially when we don't know how the Deities were "created". Gods and Goddesses could be souls of people who refused to move onto another life for whatever reason (agenda, obsession, Larger Than Life qualities, etc.) or can't (another must take their place, stuck, not recognizing something about themselves keeping them as a God, etc.), which I think would be interesting since it allows for knowledge that it's possible to become a God/Goddess (not the exact how), but have the stipulation of death and giving up the next life while keeping this all in relation to souls. It could be the extremity of those traits is such an unknown factor that it would cause the majority to not randomly decide to die for possible Godhood, though some would still try anyways. This also means that Godhood wouldn't always be by choice either. This makes it harder for Deities to try and step away to rejoin the cycle, but not impossible.

 

So, worshippers could be willing (or unwilling) candidates to take over office after they have died. If it's unknown what about the surrounding idea of worship as "good for the soul" so it's more about the interactions on themselves then the person being worshipped while creating a relationship. However, if the possibility is known then it would shake things up for why a zealot is a zealot or not. Could be some mortals are desperate to take over that office or love who is there and want them to stay, or perhaps frantically hope they will be ignored so long as they worship like a good person and remain ordinary. Again, no guarantee on any of this, which means a soul might stay a Deity forever and never get the chance to properly live in the world again. But, with the chance they could go back to the world would make a Deity generally a little more invested into the going-ons of the world.

 

What soul is acting as the Deity could then influence the religion's position on how it spreads (or shrinks), fractures, conquers, etc. I think this would give a little more power back to the Deities, which would be nice instead of always having to rely on mortals to "stay alive" or matter in the actual world. It would also give Deities another reason to pay attention to the world or turn their back on it, because if they have knowledge of the possibility they could return, they may wish to change what they see. This would add then to why mortals don't always know why a Deity wants something done, but to the Deity there certainly is a reason. Plus, creating that "disconnect" quality should a Deity ever be stumbled upon by a mortal. Finally, should a Deity actually move onto another life it could account for an "old soul" quality instead of just having lived through many, many lives.

 

Edit: Cause paragraphs are nicer on the eyes, even with awkward transistions.

Edited December 2, 2012 by Clutzy

[Acerbissimus]

If a little fourth wall breaking is ok:

 

Arenji, god of luck and calamity. Arenji has a hand in all things involving chance, whether the outcome is good or bad. However, his work tends to go unnoticed when events are favorable; the beneficiaries usually see the outcome as the way the world ought to be, or attribute the outcome to their own skill. When the outcome is undesirable, Arenji's involvement is plain to the unfortunate. Thus, Arenji is a scapegoat for all manner of misfortune, and he is more frequently cursed than praised. Of course, condemning Arenji only invites further disaster. Sometimes.

 

 

Arenji = RNG if you didn't figure it out.

 

[Ieo]

Ah, totally missed/ignored this update due to timing.

 

Great! I'm looking forward to the backer fulfillment site. And the art update (hoping for more art like the original Sagani).

 

For ideas on deities, I refer to Vernon's "Digger"... ( )