Morrowind...aka WTF happened Bethesda

[Amentep]

To be honest, I've never seen much difference between Morrowind, Oblivion or Skyrim. Except Oblivion introduced the character creation feature of "exploded faces" that never looked quite right.

 

The only difference really is cutting down the "busywork" in building skills (I jumped from tall building and didn't die - skill level up!). I never felt any real interest from any of the NPCs in any of the games or any of the quests. The guilds are a joke with one being able to join most (if not all) of them without issue (whether it makes sense or not). The fun in the games was roving around the landscape doing whatever you felt like doing, not in engaging characters or plots.

 

Although Morrowind is unbearably ugly without mods, IMO.

 

Any how, which is better - "I saw a mudcrab today...horrible creature" or "I used to be an adventurer like you...then I took an arrow to the knee"?

[Metabot]

You had a blast forging ledgers all over the countryside?

There was a bit more to it than that, mr. grumpy pants.

 

Oh yea stealing random jewelry too.

[Jarmo]

So what the hell happened over at Bethesda?

 

I'm tempted to say they learned how to make good, interesting games.

But I'd really like to somehow get into Morrowind, there just *has* to be good stuff in there somewhere.

Played for many hours years ago, didn't see anything worth doing or getting into for.

 

Went for NWN instead. Much more enjoyable.

 

The second time maybe a year ago was a brief one, the flap flap flapflapflapflap attack animations were so stupid I just couldn't stand it.

 

Can you make a successful mage (like in skyrim) or sneak bow thief (like in Oblivion)?

Might be doable if I could just completely avoid close combat alltogether?

 

Loved Oblivion, Skyrim, FO3 and NV.

 

After Skyrim I can see how there was neat stuff in Oblivion that's no longer in Skyrim and have to assume the same goes

with Morrowind and Oblivion. So I kind of see why Morrowind would seem to have most stuff in it and would like to experience it all.

[HoonDing]

The best one is "Outlander... what do you want?".

[Keyrock]

Morrowind was the peak of the Elder Scrolls series, as far as full games go, I thought the Shivering Isles expansion for Oblivion was, and still is, the best thing Bethesda has ever done. While combat in Morrowiind was horrendous, it's not like it's gotten noticeably better, it still sucked in Oblivion, and it still sucks in Skyrim. Morrowind's strength was the fantastic setting and the great faction dynamics. Oblivion was a truly forgettable game with a bland setting, bland story, bland everything except for the Brotherhood quests and the aforementioned Shivering Isles expansion. Skyrim, in my opinion, is certainly an improvement over Oblivion because at least the setting isn't quite as bland as Cyrodiil and Fus Ro Dah is kinda fun for a few minutes. No way it beats Morrowind though. The only thing Daggerfall had going for it, in my opinion, was the sheer staggering size of it all, plus it was fairly revolutionary back in the day. Still it was a borefest with you basically doing the same quest except to a different far reaching corner of the map over and over again, but with cheesy randomly generated terrain instead of a persistent world.

 

So in conclusion: (Shivering Isles) > Morrowind > Skyrim > Oblivion > Daggerfall

 

I never played Arena.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Keyrock

[Gorgon]

Agree on Shivering Isles. A bit small though. In a perfect world it would have been the main game.

[HoonDing]

Right, Shivering Isles. The expansion in which I killed a Daedric Prince called Jabberwock in one hit (level scaling be damned).

[Metabot]

So what the hell happened over at Bethesda?

 

I'm tempted to say they learned how to make good, interesting games.

But I'd really like to somehow get into Morrowind, there just *has* to be good stuff in there somewhere.

Played for many hours years ago, didn't see anything worth doing or getting into for.

 

Went for NWN instead. Much more enjoyable.

 

The second time maybe a year ago was a brief one, the flap flap flapflapflapflap attack animations were so stupid I just couldn't stand it.

 

Can you make a successful mage (like in skyrim) or sneak bow thief (like in Oblivion)?

Might be doable if I could just completely avoid close combat alltogether?

 

Loved Oblivion, Skyrim, FO3 and NV.

 

After Skyrim I can see how there was neat stuff in Oblivion that's no longer in Skyrim and have to assume the same goes

with Morrowind and Oblivion. So I kind of see why Morrowind would seem to have most stuff in it and would like to experience it all.

 

Lol yea you can make a successful mage in morrowind. The only thing that skyrim and oblivion have that's worth a damn that morrowind didn't are poisons.

[Keyrock]

Right, Shivering Isles. The expansion in which I killed a Daedric Prince called Jabberwock in one hit (level scaling be damned).

It was also the expansion filled with wacky characters, unusual quests, conspiracy theories, shopkeepers that got awfully jealous when you patronized their competitor, and the opportunity to control the traps in a dungeon luring foolish adventurers to their doom.

[Raithe]

I don't know what it was about Morrowind. The plot was forgettable, there were no really memorable characters, and the gameplay mechanics where cheesy bad for overpowering you, but there was something that could catch your soul and pull you into wandering around to see what was over the next hill and just what quirky bit of background lore you might discover...

 

And then Oblivion looked pretty, had some good technical aspects..but was completely and utterly soul-destroying.

 

Skyrim was much more .. self-contained? I guess I would say. It was more coherent in what was happening, but yeah, you run through it, you finish it, you forget about it. There's nothing that really draws you into the whole thing.

[Rosveen]

What I don't remember is the story/plot. Did it have one?

 

Morrowind had an amazing storyline. Of course Bethesda sucks at writing so it was easy to miss, but if you dig into the lore and history of the world around you, you begin to understand how brilliant it really was. Discovering Dagoth Ur's past, his motivations, the truth behind the Red Moment and how the Tribunal were both a curse and a blessing to the Dunmer was one of the greatest adventures I've ever had in a video game.

The problem is, it's so easy to just breeze through the main quest without understanding the meaning of these events. Morrowind - and all TES games, for that matter - reward bookworms. Most people will see Dagoth Ur as a madman sitting under the mountain, trying to kill everything around him - they'll go and destroy him and this will be all. Some will understand Ur's anguish, realize what was lost and how the Tribunal can be seen as true villains.

 

Though now that I think of it, I love the storyline because of lore, not because of gameplay. This might be why so many people consider it forgettable.

 

What I love about Morrowind is that while you are the chosen one, you're not the first - there were many before you and they all failed, for one reason or another. You can fail too. You never know. Or at least your character doesn't know, because the player obviously realizes the game would be pointless if you didn't save the world

 

I like Skyrim. It's a very good game. Not excellent, not the best ever, certainly not #1 on my list of anything - but it's good. I won't explain what's wrong with it because I've done it so many times on the Bethsoft forums... But read this and you'll know what Bethesda lost:

 

The director of Morrowind was focused on this:

Morrowind, following the tradition established by its predecessors in The Elder Scrolls series, attempts to establish a completely free-form world, with little constricting boundaries on the player's actions. From the beginning of the game, players are put in a world where they are left to roam, steal, quest and explore, without necessarily following the main quest. Lead Designer Ken Rolston, asked prior to Morrowind's release what he thought were the "core, untouchable design elements" of the Elder Scrolls series which "set them apart from other games", responded immediately: "Free-form experience." In Rolston's view, the game's central plot is a chance to introduce the player to a cross-current of conflicting factions, background themes, and to the characters of the game, rather than the primary focus of the player's experience. "Every TES game has to let you create the kind of character you want, and then do the things you want. We would never have a TES RPG force you to be a certain character or go down a certain path."

 

To allow for this behavior, Morrowind, in addition to creating an extensive main quest, provides detailed discursive quests for a variety of factions, including various guilds, religious organizations and aristocratic houses, in addition to side-quests found by mere exploration. Even the main plot itself may be undertaken in a number of ways. There are, in the words of critic Craig Lindley, "a very specific set of central plot points within this main plot. But the plot points are partially ordered: seven high level tasks must be completed, but their constituent sub-tasks...can be accomplished in any order, and this is repeated for the sub-tasks involved in those sub-tasks." The choices the player makes in their performance of these tasks thus become methods of character interpretation; a set of dramatic tools establishing the player's newly created self-identity.

 

 

Todd said this about the main focus of Skyrim:

At its core, it’s running through a dungeon, looting, and leveling up. Then we craft this world around you, maintain this illusion that you are in another reality.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Rosveen

[Lorfean]

Lol yea you can make a successful mage in morrowind. The only thing that skyrim and oblivion have that's worth a damn that morrowind didn't are poisons.

It seems to me that you created this thread and then you were surprised to find out there are people out there who don't share your exact opinion about these games...

 

It's all good and well that you think Morrowind is great and every game Bethesda released after it sucked balls, but not everyone is gonna agree with you on that. It's completely unnecessary, and counterproductive to the discussion you started (assuming a discussion is what you were going for), to go around mocking people's opinions and insulting them just because they don't agree with you.

[Metabot]

In terms of combat, morrowind is more of aN RPG than the other two. In terms of writing and lore, morrowind is generally considered to have the highest quality among the most recent three.

 

This is a strange forum with so many defending oblivion and skyrim over morrowind.

[BruceVC]

In terms of combat, morrowind is more of aN RPG than the other two. In terms of writing and lore, morrowind is generally considered to have the highest quality among the most recent three.

 

This is a strange forum with so many defending oblivion and skyrim over morrowind.

 

Personally I loved Morrowind. I remember it being this huge, open world where there were all these quests and things to do. I remember all the lore and books to read. For me it was a completely immersive and brilliant RPG.

[Metabot]

Well the topic of discussion wasn't which game is better. It assumed that morrowind was better and asked why the otger games arent quite as good. If you dont agree with that thats fine, but go run your mouth about it in some other thread instead of derailing this one.

[Lorfean]

Yeah, that's not really how forums work. But that's OK -- you can have your little thread. Enjoy

[Keyrock]

Well the topic of discussion wasn't which game is better. It assumed that morrowind was better and asked why the otger games arent quite as good. If you dont agree with that thats fine, but go run your mouth about it in some other thread instead of derailing this one.

I just think Bethesda took a chance with Morrowind and abandoned the standard prototypical setting for something really different. With Oblivion they took the safe route and went with a paint by numbers setting and since Oblivion made them a bajillion dollars they stuck with a paint by numbers setting for Skyrim except they added dragons, because dragons sell.

[Nordicus]

Morrowind had an amazing storyline. Of course Bethesda sucks at writing so it was easy to miss, but if you dig into the lore and history of the world around you, you begin to understand how brilliant it really was. Discovering Dagoth Ur's past, his motivations, the truth behind the Red Moment and how the Tribunal were both a curse and a blessing to the Dunmer was one of the greatest adventures I've ever had in a video game.

I would not say that the story is missable because the writing is bad (though you could say that for the later games.

 

The problem with people not remembering Morrowind's story, is that much of the lore and backstory is optional, way different from how it is force-fed to you these days. When you talk about your quests, some plot-related words might be highlighted, but you'll never hear an explanation behind them without actually asking. There are even numerous main quests where you're supposed to find information, and at the end, you'll be given it in a form of a scroll or book. I made a point to read every quest-related book I found and ask everyone's opinions on every subject, so my experience was much richer for it.

 

The amount of effort put into your prophecy puts every other RPG prophecy to shame.

 

Heck, I once picked up a random book and what was it about? Several page rebuttal for classifying destruction magic as part of conjuration school of magic! While not story-related, that was an amazing read and fleshed out the magical aspect of Elder Scrolls

The problem is, it's so easy to just breeze through the main quest without understanding the meaning of these events. Morrowind - and all TES games, for that matter - reward bookworms. Most people will see Dagoth Ur as a madman sitting under the mountain, trying to kill everything around him - they'll go and destroy him and this will be all. Some will understand Ur's anguish, realize what was lost and how the Tribunal can be seen as true villains.

 

Though now that I think of it, I love the storyline because of lore, not because of gameplay. This might be why so many people consider it forgettable.

I specifically love how Vivec, when met for the first time, says that the Tribunal is not responsible for death of Nerevar no matter what the Dissident Priests or Dagoth Ur wants to say, and that his viewpoint on the death is in one of the 4 scrolls in his temple.

 

What I love about this? He is completely lying to your face, because he probably expects that you don't have the patience to read all those veryveryvery long scrolls! I did read them! His memoires conveniently skip Nerevar's death, and the only viewpoint you get is one of Nerevar's non-Tribunal friends, and he says it was a 100% premeditated assassination, which explains why Asura turned their Dunmer skins dark

 

What I love about Morrowind is that while you are the chosen one, you're not the first - there were many before you and they all failed, for one reason or another. You can fail too. You never know. Or at least your character doesn't know, because the player obviously realizes the game would be pointless if you didn't save the world

That was a really nice subversion of The Chosen One trope. Edited November 13, 2012 by Nordicus

[Metabot]

But read this and you'll know what Bethesda lost:

 

The director of Morrowind was focused on this:

Morrowind, following the tradition established by its predecessors in The Elder Scrolls series, attempts to establish a completely free-form world, with little constricting boundaries on the player's actions. From the beginning of the game, players are put in a world where they are left to roam, steal, quest and explore, without necessarily following the main quest. Lead Designer Ken Rolston, asked prior to Morrowind's release what he thought were the "core, untouchable design elements" of the Elder Scrolls series which "set them apart from other games", responded immediately: "Free-form experience." In Rolston's view, the game's central plot is a chance to introduce the player to a cross-current of conflicting factions, background themes, and to the characters of the game, rather than the primary focus of the player's experience. "Every TES game has to let you create the kind of character you want, and then do the things you want. We would never have a TES RPG force you to be a certain character or go down a certain path."

 

To allow for this behavior, Morrowind, in addition to creating an extensive main quest, provides detailed discursive quests for a variety of factions, including various guilds, religious organizations and aristocratic houses, in addition to side-quests found by mere exploration. Even the main plot itself may be undertaken in a number of ways. There are, in the words of critic Craig Lindley, "a very specific set of central plot points within this main plot. But the plot points are partially ordered: seven high level tasks must be completed, but their constituent sub-tasks...can be accomplished in any order, and this is repeated for the sub-tasks involved in those sub-tasks." The choices the player makes in their performance of these tasks thus become methods of character interpretation; a set of dramatic tools establishing the player's newly created self-identity.

 

 

Todd said this about the main focus of Skyrim:

At its core, it’s running through a dungeon, looting, and leveling up. Then we craft this world around you, maintain this illusion that you are in another reality.

 

Great info. Thanks for replying to the topic.

[Wombat]

In Morrowind, what makes the "story" coherent hugely depends on how much the players tried to "explore" the world with actively interpreting the meanings behind the abundunt lore. In this way, Morrowind didn't even try to patronize the players. I don't mind Beth blushing up the game-plays but, unfortunately, they seem to have forgotten to treat the players with respect.

[WDeranged]

Well the topic of discussion wasn't which game is better. It assumed that morrowind was better and asked why the otger games arent quite as good. If you dont agree with that thats fine, but go run your mouth about it in some other thread instead of derailing this one.

 

How can there be an open "discussion" with your prerequisite assumptions getting in the way?

[Bos_hybrid]

I got lost for hours in Morrowind, the amount of time I spent on a single playthrough dwarfs almost every other game I've played. But then I played the GOY edition with Tribunal and Solstheim, which added substantial content.

 

Like others have said, if you read and explore while doing the main quest, the game experience of it was much better. I can remember actually liking Dagoth Ur, but for the life of me I can't remember exactly why.

 

But really the degradation of content from Morrowind to Oblivion(not just the quality) is huge.

 

Morrowind (without Tribunal and Bloodmoon) factions:

 

House Redoran

House Hlaalu

House Telvanni

The Empire

The Fighters Guild

The Mages Guild

Thieves Guild

East Empire Company

Blades

Fighters Guild

Mages Guild

Imperial Cult

Ashlanders

Tribunal Temple

Morag Tong

3 vampire clans

 

Choosing one faction over another locks the other one out. Quite a few have different paths to take to reach the high point of the faction.

 

Oblivion:

 

Fighters guild

Mage guild

Blades

Thieves Guild

Dark Brotherhood

Arena

 

You can join all factions and they are all linear paths.

 

I tend to think this sums up the decline from Morrowind to Oblivion nicely.

[melkathi]

Right, Shivering Isles. The expansion in which I killed a Daedric Prince called Jabberwock in one hit (level scaling be damned).

 

Did the same with both of Morrowind's expansions... and Dagoth Ur in the main game. And everyone else for that matter.

There were only two enemies that I did not one hit: a specific Hand of Almalexia named Salas Valor (3 hits) and a frost giant by the name of Karstaag in Bloodmoon (5 hits if I remember well).

[Amentep]

I'm pretty sure most of the factions in Morrowind were joinable without exclusion (I seem to recall being the head of both the Mage's and Fighter's Guild). There were exclusivity in the Houses as i recall (never did the Vampire stuff, but I seem to recall hearing they were exclusive).

 

Since Oblivion moved location, it seems the majority of the organizations that carried over weren't exclusive in Morrowind - if my memory is correct.

[melkathi]

 

Morrowind (without Tribunal and Bloodmoon) factions:

 

House Redoran

House Hlaalu

House Telvanni

The Empire

The Fighters Guild

The Mages Guild

Thieves Guild

East Empire Company

Blades

Fighters Guild

Mages Guild

Imperial Cult

Ashlanders

Tribunal Temple

Morag Tong

3 vampire clans

 

Choosing one faction over another locks the other one out. Quite a few have different paths to take to reach the high point of the faction.

 

 

 

I think you could also list the werewoofs as a Bloodmoon faction.

And personally I also see the Camonna Tong as part of the list. While it isn't joinable per se, taking control of House Hlaalu does result in you pretty much taking over the Camonna Tong as well... very fun in its irony if you are an Cyrodiil, head of the imperial Legion and Cult and also a member of the East Empire Trading Company