alanschu Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 You're preaching to the choir. I agree that the novelty is so important. A lot of people (indirectly) tell me that this is not the case though, and that BioWare has lost their way and literally should have stuck with the isometric 2D backdrop style of gaming because that's what made BioWare a hit. Without realizing it, though, these people are intrinsically placing restrictions on what a company should do (arguing whether or not companies have their own that ultimately compromise product quality is a fair viewpoint, but is not quite the same thing). With respect to something like Project Eternity, my commitment to their kickstarter is a reflection of "I love the games that Obsidian makes" so for me, that it was "Infinity Engine inspired" is actually not important. I trust them to make a game experience that I will find enjoyable, and prefer the kickstarter angle simply because it leaves them creatively unchained. This is the game they want to make, and I think that that is its biggest charm. At the same time though, am I unique in this regard? I think the Infinity Engine pitch certainly helped the kickstarter, and it's definitely brought out people that have varying appreciation for those older games. For some people the Icewind Dale series are the best IE games made, because they love the focus on the combat. Many struggle to get in with PST because "walls o' text" (I struggled my first playthrough) as well as the weird setting. Unfortunately, as much as I love PST, it's probably more "cult classic" than BG2 is. But at this time I'm rambling and my compile is done, so... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volourn Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 "I have serious doubts that any creatively significant work can be forced into a perpetual yearly release schedule. Anything and everything would degenerate to repetition at best, garbage at worst." Wrong. The NHl series is awesome and it is released every year. DWARVES IN PROJECT ETERNITY = VOLOURN HAS PLEDGED $250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 "I have serious doubts that any creatively significant work can be forced into a perpetual yearly release schedule. Anything and everything would degenerate to repetition at best, garbage at worst." Wrong. The NHl series is awesome and it is released every year. Really there are a ton of types of media that manage to stick to a schedule and stay fresh and creative. TV shows do it all the time. Sure, eventually the formula will get stale, but you should be able to get through a few iterations before needing an overhaul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted November 20, 2012 Share Posted November 20, 2012 It all depends on what you're doing within the year. The EA Sports stuff is highly iterative year to year, but not huge and wholesale changes. Those come after a few years. The model doesn't necessarily work as well with all game types (EA Sports are arguably not a "creative" title, in the sense of creating a narrative and the challenges that may or may not be presented with those types of games), but I think part of the issue is that it's still somewhat newish. Improving parallelization is still coming along. But once an engine is complete and designers/writers know all it can do and don't expect to do anything different, creating a new game story is probably not too time consuming. But you will be restricted to the same types of game mechanics without that programmer support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoraptor Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Sports games have a huge advantage (as part of not being "creative") in that they are tied to a reality that changes with, well, reality. If you want the updated team rosters, team colours or even in some cases teams themselves you need to get the updated game. There's very little creative with regards to them as- by definition- they're not supposed to be creative, they're supposed to model a reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
necromate Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 What I really enjoyed in Morrowind was that exploration actually paid off! Once I got lost during a quest and ended up in crypt full of daedric armor/weapons (Where there's that special shield on the wall) It was real nice to get your hands on epic equipment early in the game, and these equipments ware actually RARE as hell There was no daedric sword in every bush once you reached the required lvl. So finding, collecting and personalizing your equipment was FUN. Entering a dungeon meant that you had a chance to find something very cool. I hate it when a quest sends you into a thousand year old crypt of this and that famous person, only to find gear matching your current lvl. It makes exploration boring. You know that the next weapon you find will only be slightly better etc. Morrowind gave you the excitement: you wanted to know what was beyond the next corner / behind the next crate. At least this was HUGE part of the fun for me. Personalization... you could enchant every ****ing piece of crap. Magic let you run like the wind, jump above the clouds, make a ring of invisibility and steal while invisible... you ware overpowered though, but it felt good. What's the point of being lvl 30 in NWN2 if all encounters get only harder and harder? I mean at lvl30 occasionally I want to kick some noob ass. If I remeber correctly there's a spell that not only makes you invisible but partly removes you from the dimension... AND YOU STILL CAN'T FOOL THE TOWN MERCHANT!? (not to mention mind affecting spells). 1 "The very existence of flame-throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves: You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." - George Carlin (RIP!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yes Man Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 What I really enjoyed in Morrowind was that exploration actually paid off! Once I got lost during a quest and ended up in crypt full of daedric armor/weapons (Where there's that special shield on the wall) It was real nice to get your hands on epic equipment early in the game, and these equipments ware actually RARE as hell There was no daedric sword in every bush once you reached the required lvl. So finding, collecting and personalizing your equipment was FUN. Entering a dungeon meant that you had a chance to find something very cool. I hate it when a quest sends you into a thousand year old crypt of this and that famous person, only to find gear matching your current lvl. It makes exploration boring. You know that the next weapon you find will only be slightly better etc. Morrowind gave you the excitement: you wanted to know what was beyond the next corner / behind the next crate. At least this was HUGE part of the fun for me. Oh god yes, one of the best parts of Morrowind. It actually paid off to know the land yourself so that you could know where to go on new play throughs, where to get the best gear, what places to go to and when, etc. "Well, there's many things they have forgotten sitting in their bowls. Friendship. The thrill of discovery. Love. Masturbation. The usual." -Dr. Mobius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Oh god yes, one of the best parts of Morrowind. It actually paid off to know the land yourself so that you could know where to go on new play throughs, where to get the best gear, what places to go to and when, etc. I'm not sure if this is necessarily an advantage or not. It makes the game universe predictable and consistent, but you're basically just describing metagaming. To the point where "I can effectively break the game because I know where to go to get all the best stuff." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
necromate Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 (edited) Oh god yes, one of the best parts of Morrowind. It actually paid off to know the land yourself so that you could know where to go on new play throughs, where to get the best gear, what places to go to and when, etc. I'm not sure if this is necessarily an advantage or not. It makes the game universe predictable and consistent, but you're basically just describing metagaming. To the point where "I can effectively break the game because I know where to go to get all the best stuff." Breaking the game is one of the most enjoyable things you can do in Morrowind. Because you are ALLOWED to do it in so many different ways. It's actually one of the reasons you want to play it again. Rising to godhood, killing an important character and still complete the main quest on a different path. BUT it's still work to get there... (btw a guy completeded the game trough the "emergency" main quest in 7mins using advanced knowledge of where to find what, but that's also fun to do :D) Also I think "...I know where to go to get all the best stuff." is actually valid for all the games ever played trough more than once, you know exactly that after the next corner there's a boss and it's gonna drop loot exactly matching your lvl, the only difference is that in an open world you can make use of this kind of knowledge. Edited November 21, 2012 by necromate "The very existence of flame-throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves: You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." - George Carlin (RIP!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 (edited) Breaking the game is one of the most enjoyable things you can do in Morrowind. Because you are ALLOWED to do it in so many different ways. It's actually one of the reasons you want to play it again. Rising to godhood, killing an important character and still complete the main quest on a different path. BUT it's still work to get there... (btw a guy completeded the game trough the "emergency" main quest in 7mins using advanced knowledge of where to find what, but that's also fun to do :D) I'll take an excellent narrative over Morrowind any day though. I've replayed Fallout: New Vegas. I was unable to return to Morrowind after a break (in large part because the Journal was utter crap). Different strokes for different folks and all. Also I think "...I know where to go to get all the best stuff." is actually valid for all the games ever played trough more than once, you know exactly that after the next corner there's a boss and it's gonna drop loot exactly matching your lvl, the only difference is that in an open world you can make use of this kind of knowledge. I wasn't the one saying that remembering where the badass stuff is one of the best parts of the game though. Also, what you describe here is level scaling (so you might not actually know it'll drop loot matching your level, and by definition since it's matching your level it's no longer deterministic so we aren't talking about the same thing anymore). I have tried doing stuff like you describe in the past, and while it's fun for a short while, ultimately it takes me out of the game. I now play RPGs from the perspective of "I don't go to a place that my character doesn't care to go for" even if it results in suboptimal gameplay. I stopped being a power gamer years ago. Again, different strokes for different folks. Edited November 21, 2012 by alanschu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Oh god yes, one of the best parts of Morrowind. It actually paid off to know the land yourself so that you could know where to go on new play throughs, where to get the best gear, what places to go to and when, etc. I'm not sure if this is necessarily an advantage or not. It makes the game universe predictable and consistent, but you're basically just describing metagaming. To the point where "I can effectively break the game because I know where to go to get all the best stuff." Breaking the game is one of the most enjoyable things you can do in Morrowind. Because you are ALLOWED to do it in so many different ways. It's actually one of the reasons you want to play it again. Rising to godhood, killing an important character and still complete the main quest on a different path. BUT it's still work to get there... (btw a guy completeded the game trough the "emergency" main quest in 7mins using advanced knowledge of where to find what, but that's also fun to do :D) Also I think "...I know where to go to get all the best stuff." is actually valid for all the games ever played trough more than once, you know exactly that after the next corner there's a boss and it's gonna drop loot exactly matching your lvl, the only difference is that in an open world you can make use of this kind of knowledge. Mmmm, you have raised some good points and made me ask myself "why do I enjoy Bethesda games so much? " I like the fact that you have this large, immersive non-instanced world where you have all this lore and places to explore. I also like the fact that you are not forced to follow a certain predefined path in the game. So in the example of finding a hidden crypt that contains Daedric Armour I have no issue with that. You could just place a difficult creature in the crypt that only allows you to retrieve the items at a later stage when you can beat it? Also as far as I remember items aren't enough to win the game in Morrowind, you need skills and attributes? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
necromate Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Oh god yes, one of the best parts of Morrowind. It actually paid off to know the land yourself so that you could know where to go on new play throughs, where to get the best gear, what places to go to and when, etc. I'm not sure if this is necessarily an advantage or not. It makes the game universe predictable and consistent, but you're basically just describing metagaming. To the point where "I can effectively break the game because I know where to go to get all the best stuff." Breaking the game is one of the most enjoyable things you can do in Morrowind. Because you are ALLOWED to do it in so many different ways. It's actually one of the reasons you want to play it again. Rising to godhood, killing an important character and still complete the main quest on a different path. BUT it's still work to get there... (btw a guy completeded the game trough the "emergency" main quest in 7mins using advanced knowledge of where to find what, but that's also fun to do :D) Also I think "...I know where to go to get all the best stuff." is actually valid for all the games ever played trough more than once, you know exactly that after the next corner there's a boss and it's gonna drop loot exactly matching your lvl, the only difference is that in an open world you can make use of this kind of knowledge. Mmmm, you have raised some good points and made me ask myself "why do I enjoy Bethesda games so much? " I like the fact that you have this large, immersive non-instanced world where you have all this lore and places to explore. I also like the fact that you are not forced to follow a certain predefined path in the game. So in the example of finding a hidden crypt that contains Daedric Armour I have no issue with that. You could just place a difficult creature in the crypt that only allows you to retrieve the items at a later stage when you can beat it? Also as far as I remember items aren't enough to win the game in Morrowind, you need skills and attributes? Of course, Daedric items without the specific skills and atributes are nearly as useless as their low lvl counterparts. Just slightly better than a normal sword, also if you get quality heavy armor at the start, you are just unable to carry anything else xD So there is level scaling of some sort... That hidden crypt is guarded by 2 dremoras and the door is locked but if you get 2 invisibility scrolls/potions and an open 100 scroll, you can fool them easily, but that is also part of the game, how to fool high level enemies with all the fun spells (for example calming down attackers is always funny) "The very existence of flame-throwers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves: You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." - George Carlin (RIP!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 Oh god yes, one of the best parts of Morrowind. It actually paid off to know the land yourself so that you could know where to go on new play throughs, where to get the best gear, what places to go to and when, etc. I'm not sure if this is necessarily an advantage or not. It makes the game universe predictable and consistent, but you're basically just describing metagaming. To the point where "I can effectively break the game because I know where to go to get all the best stuff." Breaking the game is one of the most enjoyable things you can do in Morrowind. Because you are ALLOWED to do it in so many different ways. It's actually one of the reasons you want to play it again. Rising to godhood, killing an important character and still complete the main quest on a different path. BUT it's still work to get there... (btw a guy completeded the game trough the "emergency" main quest in 7mins using advanced knowledge of where to find what, but that's also fun to do :D) Also I think "...I know where to go to get all the best stuff." is actually valid for all the games ever played trough more than once, you know exactly that after the next corner there's a boss and it's gonna drop loot exactly matching your lvl, the only difference is that in an open world you can make use of this kind of knowledge. Mmmm, you have raised some good points and made me ask myself "why do I enjoy Bethesda games so much? " I like the fact that you have this large, immersive non-instanced world where you have all this lore and places to explore. I also like the fact that you are not forced to follow a certain predefined path in the game. So in the example of finding a hidden crypt that contains Daedric Armour I have no issue with that. You could just place a difficult creature in the crypt that only allows you to retrieve the items at a later stage when you can beat it? Also as far as I remember items aren't enough to win the game in Morrowind, you need skills and attributes? Of course, Daedric items without the specific skills and atributes are nearly as useless as their low lvl counterparts. Just slightly better than a normal sword, also if you get quality heavy armor at the start, you are just unable to carry anything else xD So there is level scaling of some sort... That hidden crypt is guarded by 2 dremoras and the door is locked but if you get 2 invisibility scrolls/potions and an open 100 scroll, you can fool them easily, but that is also part of the game, how to fool high level enemies with all the fun spells (for example calming down attackers is always funny) Your points reinforce the view thats its not cheating to find these types of items early in the game. I see it as a type of strategy. "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orchomene Posted November 21, 2012 Share Posted November 21, 2012 In Fallout 2, you can get a power armor after 15 minutes of playing the game. Yet, you don't have too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Caliban Posted November 22, 2012 Share Posted November 22, 2012 I believe I played Oblivion for 5-10 hours, gritting my teeth and waiting for that Morrowind magic to return. It never did. I disagree that Fallout 3 and Skyrim are as bad as Oblivion, or that Morrowind was vastly superior to those two. I do think that Morrowind best captures and expresses those things which I play Bethesda RPGs for: A rich and detailed world, a ton of backstory, a wide number of virtual toys to play with, and an environment that encourages and rewards exploration as opposed to following a story line. It's not nessarily a better game, story, or RPG, but it's a better sandbox. "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOK222 Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Oh hello Maria, didn't know you posted here too Ka-ka-ka-ka-Cocaine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 3712 posts says otherwise “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 (edited) Gonna have to disagree. Unless you've seen a Maria Caliban post, it's possible to now know a Maria Caliban exists on these forums. It's a bit like a Schrodinger's Maria Caliban. (Jebus I forgot how often I posted here in the past....) Edited November 23, 2012 by alanschu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorth Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Gonna have to disagree. Unless you've seen a Maria Caliban post, it's possible to now know a Maria Caliban exists on these forums. It's a bit like a Schrodinger's Maria Caliban. (Jebus I forgot how often I posted here in the past....) Yes. Now get back to working on DA3 Looking at my own post count is kind of scary. Considering that most of them are posted while at work “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOK222 Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 (edited) Maria, are you still angry at the patriarchy? Yes. Now get back to working on DA3 Every second he wastes is a recycled environment. Edited November 23, 2012 by NKKKK Ka-ka-ka-ka-Cocaine! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maria Caliban Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 Oh hello Maria, didn't know you posted here too I come and go. Maria, are you still angry at the patriarchy? That's something of a tangent, but since you asked, I'm not fond of it. "When is this out. I can't wait to play it so I can talk at length about how bad it is." - Gorgon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanschu Posted November 23, 2012 Share Posted November 23, 2012 (edited) Every second he wastes is a recycled environment. Of course. I am powered by the tears of rage and require it for sustenance. Edited November 23, 2012 by alanschu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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