fan boys.

[themanclaw]

What I noticed about the factors that contribute to the decline in creative potential in fiction-loving communities is fanboyism. I'm not just talking about those who greatly enjoy a fictional universe, but those who think that the developers are infallible because they created something the fanboys like, therefor, any of your criticism is wrong.

 

You see it with Lucas fans; the man did a lot to bring about the original star wars series, but did not do it without the essential production and criticism of others on the team; the story and universe were not his alone, yet he takes full credit for it and spends a bunch of money to create the prequels with a bunch of yes men and the intent of selling cheap thrills rather than develop a work which can be better appreciated with increasing examination of the various narratives and themes. In effect, Lucas' way devolved the series, and yet his fanboys still side with him unconditionally. You can then look at what has happened to star wars extended universe; most of it is merely exploitation and recycling of old star wars tropes rather than expanding and adding more depth an color to it. For example: think of the transition that happened with the transition from the thoughtful narrative of KotOR 2 and the shallow selling value of TOR MMO, which was subsequent to the Revan novels that Lucas arts used to essentially eliminate every aspect of depth and mystery in the other KotORs. And yet, Lucas fanboys will still think that devolving narrative is a good idea because they think Lucas perfect.

 

Another example I needn't go into as much are Bioware fanboys. Just go onto BSN and look at the general consensus that it is taboo to acknowledge that Bioware f***** up hard in the production and writing.

 

What I'm hoping is that this community will prove to be more rational in their assessments and outlooks on games when PE comes around.

[C2B]

I see several questions here

 

- What defines a fanboy

- Does a fanboy automatically need to be annoying

- Can a fanboy be critical

 

I think I tend to fall into the fanboy group as I'm defending Obsidian's games a lot and love them all to death. (Well my love for (most parts of) NWN2 isn't exactly big) Yet though can critizize them quite heavily if I were to analyze them in a discussion.

Edited October 19, 2012 by C2B

[themanclaw]

I see several questions here

 

- What defines a fanboy

- Does a fanboy automatically need to be annoying

- Can a fanboy be critical

 

I think I tend to fall into the fanboy group as I'm defending Obsidian's games a lot and love them all to death. (Well my love for (most parts of) NWN2 isn't exactly big) Yet though can critizize them quite heavily if I were to analyze them in a discussion.

 

The kind of fanboy I'm referring to would be the following (answering your questions):

1. A special kind of fan that justifies everything about a particular work and refuses to listen to reason in arguments contrary to his or her beliefs.

2. They aren't always acting annoying, but the act of being badgered for bringing up alternate perspectives by somebody offended on a personal basis is annoying.

3. Yes and no about being critical. They cannot be or accept criticism that disturbs their personal ideals of the work, but can be critical of the characters' actions within the story.

 

Think of it like

.

(acknowledged the above content differs from person to person)

Edited October 19, 2012 by themanclaw

[Gorth]

Not sure where this thread belongs, but I'm pretty sure it's not pen and paper related... lets try out the general gaming section.

 

[Cantousent]

Yeah, I saw this in Pen and Paper and kind of wondered why it was there. I just figured that claw got confused or there was a board mix up. Happens to me at least.

 

As to the original assertion, I don't know of many of the folks who are most hardcore Obsidz fans who really descend into stultifying slavery. I guess I'm a fanboy and I say they should decide the issues on their own, but I also advocate what I want or not and encourage pretty much everyone else to do the same. I mean, I don't like to encourage people I perceive as trolls, but I do encourage folks to voice their expectations and desires. ...and most of the Obsidian hard-core fans are actually pretty brutal on Obsidian. I know I've given specific people compliments that they probably felt had come from the back of my hand. I would wager that anyone who's come under Gromnir's scrutiny at Obsidian knows the quality of a good fanboy. We don't even get a lot of folks who shout other people down all that effectively.

[Zoraptor]

Fanboys tend to bring an almost religious zeal to things and blur the differences between fact and opinion. It's rather difficult to tell if you're actually a fanboy yourself because if so you think your arguments make perfect sense. It's one of those things where thinking you may be a fanboy probably means you aren't really.

 

Personally I always try to be critical- point out the stuff I like and the stuff I think can be improved. Going on interminably about how much I hate something or how much I love something I do try to avoid.

 

For example: think of the transition that happened with the transition from the thoughtful narrative of KotOR 2 and the shallow selling value of TOR MMO, which was subsequent to the Revan novels that Lucas arts used to essentially eliminate every aspect of depth and mystery in the other KotORs.

The Revan novel was written by Drew Karpyshyn who was K1's main writer and a significant contributor to TOR itself. Given that Lucas infamously doesn't care about the EU I don't think he can really be blamed for that, though there certainly is plenty you can blame him for.

[mr insomniac]

Another example I needn't go into as much are Bioware fanboys. Just go onto BSN and look at the general consensus that it is taboo to acknowledge that Bioware f***** up hard in the production and writing.

In fact it was just the opposite for a long time after ME3's release. Even now posts stating how much the game was enjoyed generate a majority of conflicting responses, at least from what I've seen. It was bad enough for awhile that it was Bioware themselves who cracked down on the negativity, not the community.

[themanclaw]

The Revan novel was written by Drew Karpyshyn who was K1's main writer and a significant contributor to TOR itself. Given that Lucas infamously doesn't care about the EU I don't think he can really be blamed for that, though there certainly is plenty you can blame him for.

Indeed. Perhaps I should just point to the Lucas arts department in charge of that then because the novels were written for the promotion of the MMO.

 

In fact it was just the opposite for a long time after ME3's release. Even now posts stating how much the game was enjoyed generate a majority of conflicting responses, at least from what I've seen. It was bad enough for awhile that it was Bioware themselves who cracked down on the negativity, not the community.

True that the remarks against Bioware were out of hand after the initial release, but after much the people who felt let down moved on, what's left nowadays consists about 80% of two groups:

1. The devotees. 'Biowares ending had no plot holes. It made sense. Shut up or you'll offend me!'

2. Conspiracy (Indoctination) Theorists. 'There's no way Bioware's writing could ever be bad like what we say in the ending. It MUST be an intentional ploy that I've heard about that picks and chooses evidence.'

 

I feel like I'm in agreement with what the rest of y'all have said. I don't think that kind of thinking will plague the Obsidian community, as there is a strong sense of support between ourselves and the company.

[melkathi]

 

2. Conspiracy (Indoctination) Theorists. 'There's no way Bioware's writing could ever be bad like what we say in the ending. It MUST be an intentional ploy that I've heard about that picks and chooses evidence.'

 

 

But don't in reality a lot of gamers belong into that category? The first reaction of nearly any gamer who has the slightest belief that they have even the tiniest understanding of the industry is to say "The publisher forced the devs". It's nearly a pavlovian reaction - you say the word "bug" and gamers will shout "Damn publishers, beancounters who don't understand gaming forced an early release!"

Of course publishers make it easy for people to use them as scape goats. EA has given people no reason not to blame them. But just because a publisher is evil incarnate, that does not mean that, for example, a writer hasn't produced drivel by himself, right

[Volourn]

Posting in a troll thread that has nothing to do with games but has everything to do with bashing others that have a different opinion than yourself.

[Bos_hybrid]

[Humanoid]

I'd point to my sig as to what I personally most associate with fanboyism, but nowadays I suspect most of them aren't so much fanboys as much as interns at PR firms.

[Frederick]

The kind of fanboy I'm referring to would be the following (answering your questions):

1. A special kind of fan that justifies everything about a particular work and refuses to listen to reason in arguments contrary to his or her beliefs.

2. They aren't always acting annoying, but the act of being badgered for bringing up alternate perspectives by somebody offended on a personal basis is annoying.

3. Yes and no about being critical. They cannot be or accept criticism that disturbs their personal ideals of the work, but can be critical of the characters' actions within the story.

 

Think of it like

.

(acknowledged the above content differs from person to person)

 

Haha! So glad you put the link, because your point by point answer is interchangeable with religious zealotry, so much that it'd have been strange if no one noticed it. xD

 

Thanks for posting this. Fanboys are bad. But this is a company that like to produce mature games for mature audiences, and I'd guess fanboys tend to be immature. I hope time doesn't prove me wrong, though. o_o

[Hurlshort]

Some of your points are interesting, but it falls apart when you start using your low opinion of TOR to try and prove a point. TOR as an mmo has a lot of flaws, but as a continuation of the KotOR universe, it succeeds in many ways. That is opinion, of course, but that is why you should have left it out of your original post to begin with.

[LadyCrimson]

Hm. I think one can be "fanboy" "fangirl" without also being a blind puppet, or whatever. I'm definitely an Obsidian fangirl, who'll support them through almost anything where I can, but that doesn't mean I support them blindly or think they are/have been perfect. It's more that I staunchly support their potential. Sometimes that potential doesn't turn out to be in the direction I personally prefer, but that's life.

 

But I do know what most people seem to mean by the term. I just see it as...the internet has a way of bringing out and magnifying any .... stubborn nature ... that every person can have to some degree or another. It's not like a real-life conversation where people get tired of yapping and stop, to likely not be continued when they wake up the next morning, or even next week. Unlike on the internet, when people wake up, log on to social sites, and can keep right on going. eg, the internet makes it all seem worse than it really is, if that makes sense.

 

...I think I'm rambling.

[Gromnir]

as much as we loathe the fanboi mentality, we suspect that such nonsense has very little impact on game quality. can fanboi's, with tacit support of the developer, chill debate on message boards? sure. if you is the seemingly lone voice o' criticism on a board and you is attacked and insulted by the TRUE minions of Cain or Bioware or Lucas, the average person will leave rather than endure abuse. am thinking that the bioware fanboi's were a bit amazed and appalled when the developers actually showed acceptance (and maybe even approval) of Gromnir's harsh criticisms of bg and bg fanbois. 'course that were a long time ago and the culture at bio changed. we got banned 'cause we wouldn't stop criticizing the mass effect dialogue wheel. go figure. nevertheless, to suggest that bioware game quality diminished in anyway because o' the absence o' more heated board debates would be a bit narcissistic and altogether myopic.

 

reality check: message boards is more a cheap advertising option for developers and publishers than they is 'bout being an integral part of the game development process. message boards help build anticipation for games and they is a natural incubator for growing a diehard fanbase. message boards is far less expensive than tv commercials, but they help sell games. fanbois is a cancer on message boards (maybe call'em a Caincer as is nothing worse than a cain fanboi) but ultimately, a cancer-ridden message board does not necessarily result in a diseased game. a diseased message board that helps sell games is still a Win for developers and publishers.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[WDeranged]

To my shame I'm probably a Bethesda fanboi, from Morrowind to Skyrim I've found myself dumping hundreds of hours into their games but that's not to say I can't be critical or possibly even cynical after watching Bethesda gut the Elder Scrolls mechanics rather than balancing what was already there. Obsidian have only really impressed me with New Vegas, maybe because it's a Bethesda style game or maybe because they showed em how it should be done...either way I think it's a glorious game.

 

I don't have any worries that my respect for Obsidian will blind me to flaws in Project Eternity, I'm still sour about elves and bloody dwarves being used again, that's flaw 0 in my book

[LadyCrimson]

I'm not a big fan of fantasy dwarves/gnomes myself, but more for personalized reasons, so I just ignore it.

[Janmanden]

I think "fanboy" is just a negative profiling that you apply to someone who is not mature enough to back out of the silly discussion that you should never have been a part of and has a different opinion than you and refuse to embrace the things you find to be annoying to be really that annoying for them as well, because they are obviously willing to overlook some things that you find to be completely unacceptable, because they add more value to other things than you. I think first impressions are very important and if they played a sequel of games in a different order than you it's quite likely that there will be a lot fanboy name droppings, especially if the games were made by different developers.. I don't really think it's fair to point out lacking maturity levels by calling someone a fanboy. I guess "you will learn", "you are still young", "grow up ffs".. could be uuuuuuh, not really used either unless followed by a smiling smilie.

 

Taste is such a hard thing to agree about, but ít sounds to me like you are actually referring to noobs, which is.. erm, just as bad, or in reality much worse really, actually. Grammar.. semantics.. Ugh. I like periods, especially the big round ones, but these are all so small..

 

---

 

I wasn't as conscious about ME3 choices as I got after visiting this forum. There were a lot of things that annoyed me, when I played it, but it was mostly on a subconscious level apart from a relatively few WTF's outburst. If ME3 had been a sequel to a game without any choice at all I think it would have been pretty nice with only a few choices, but with the first impression of ME1 still in mind as well as other previous games by Bioware it felt really dumbed down on so many levels that it was ultimately quite unacceptable, but it was a slippery slope from the beginning.. Actually from the second after.. The second game after, I mean. Somehow I find it much easier to adapt to positive trends than negative ones especially in games. Maybe it's part of getting old..er or just erm, natural. And erm, I kind of forgot the point why I was adding this, so erm, now for something completely different - on topic or slightly away but kind of close, relatively speaking.

 

I haven't played the TOR MMO myself, but I realize that the world of gaming is constantly changing and that the gamer generations change as well, because people change and times are changing and blah-blah-blah (of course). I just don't think that making a game that is true to the original Star Wars would have been possible or likeable.. Actually I am not sure what level such a game should adhere too, because a game made true to that time wouldn't have been fun at all. The two games that Bioware and Obsidian added, namely the Knights of the Old Republic are totally awesome compared to the previous games, which were basically just action shooters with light sabers. I am referring to Star Wars: Dark Forces and Star Wars Jedi Knight (Dark Forces 2). I guess that assessment also kind of makes me a fanboy, because I obviously prefer choice and dialogue over constant action shooting.. I didn't like any of the new Star Wars movies, because of some of the worst acting ever, I would have turned to the Dark Side in the first game just to be rid of Ewan McGregor as Obi-wan and without Harrison Ford as Obi.. Erm, Wan.. Uh, names.. Han Solo! I sincerely doubt I would have liked the Star Wars movies at all.. Well, maybe except for the toys that I never got to play with.. Erm, Same as above. I'll just insert a line somewhere and decrease font-size.

 

And blah-blah-blah just for the sake of adding annoying text scrolling down or up or beyond the screen.. in the Star Wars way.

[Gromnir]

 

I don't have any worries that my respect for Obsidian will blind me to flaws in Project Eternity, I'm still sour about elves and bloody dwarves being used again, that's flaw 0 in my book

 

these is the guys that made ps:t. chrisA did some stoopid things in ps:t. why no swords? was a good reason for lack o' swords? no, but chrisA were tired o' seeing magic swords in crpgs. lack o' swords didn't bother Gromnir, but there were never a good reason to exclude. again, these is the guys that made ps;t, and for anybody that followed the ps:t boards, they can tell you that people complained that there were no dwarves and elves and there were complaints that the protagonist was fixed and could not be a dwarf or elf... or female.

 

chrisA were a bit immature when he made ps:t. he were tired o' seeing stuff in crpgs, so he did not include such stuff. the thing is, the people playing ps:t were not tired o' such stuff. would ps:t have been a worse game if it had elves, dwarves and swords? 'course not. the planescape setting included the aforementioned without any difficulty. the obsidian developers has no doubt learned that giving people the largely trivial stuff they want is a good idea. if the developers got a good reason to exclude popular stuff, then they should exclude... and will exclude. nevertheless, inclusion of elves does not necessarily make a game good or bad. how elves and dwarves gets implemented IS important, but bare-naked existence is a non-factor save that it makes a majority o' potential players happy.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Cantousent]

I enjoyed ToR, but I can't really get into MMOs anymore. I can for a while, but as I neglect other things in life (such as sleep) I just find I get run down. That and I can't abide grinding. I think ToR actually has some great ideas for an MMO. If folks hate MMO's on principle, then I guess there's no discussion to be had, but if you're willing to try something new and listen to other folks' accounts of how the game plays, then you might find you enjoy it.

 

Blind hatred of a game isn't any better than blind loyalty to it. It's no better to be a hater than a fanboy.

[AGX-17]

"Hey guys, here is this thing which exists, and with which we are all familiar. Let me say some things on the subject that have already been said before." That's the vibe i'm getting here.

[Gromnir]

"Hey guys, here is this thing which exists, and with which we are all familiar. Let me say some things on the subject that have already been said before." That's the vibe i'm getting here.

 

point out the genuine unique discussion on this board regarding a crpg feature or issue.

 

duh.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[LadyCrimson]

"Hey guys, here is this thing which exists, and with which we are all familiar. Let me say some things on the subject that have already been said before." That's the vibe i'm getting here.

 

point out the genuine unique discussion on this board regarding a crpg feature or issue.

 

duh.

 

HA! Good Fun!

I was going to say something similar.

At any rate, any time you have huge influx of new users to a single place, it's likely there will be a period of a lot of duplication of topic themes/posts for a fair bit of time. Most people like to put their own two cents in, in their own words.

[themanclaw]

Posting in a troll thread that has nothing to do with games but has everything to do with bashing others that have a different opinion than yourself.

It seems like people replying to my post are getting the wrong impression of what I was trying to say. Having differing opinions/likes/dislikes does not bother me in the slightest. It is a certain mentality which willfully rejects rational thinking that I find irritating. Obviously crude insults like "grow up" and such are only going to contribute to the general air of irrationality that surrounds any given discussion. All I'm trying to say that I don't think it is a good idea to find opinions that dismiss fact as valid as those which do not. If an assertion is unfounded, then it's inconsistencies should be addressed and dismissed; having an opinion doesn't make you unconditionally right-- all claims should be equally open to criticism and valued based upon their level of factual relativity.

 

Blind hatred of a game isn't any better than blind loyalty to it. It's no better to be a hater than a fanboy.

I don't blindly hate the game. It has good things and bad things about it. I tried it out, and simply did not find it up to the quality of the previous KoTOR's. At any rate, I don't think that one would argue with the notion that TOR at least diverged off into a different direction than the other KotORs, changing the way narrative was presented in away from what I found to be the most appealing aspect of KoTOR. This, in large part, is due to the profits that can be found in MMO's. I'm not trying to badger people who like it, merely point out that Lucas Arts doesn't just make decision for quality of their works, hence being an illustration of how a fanboy would disregard the fact that the entities which they so highly praise are prone to flaw.