Gfted1 Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 The main question should be, is this fun? Going back and forth to rest/heal, does it feel FUN or does it feel like punishment/work? Lets not forget the mega dungeon, no healing potions and only being able to do the timesink healing all the way through...meh I think this is an excellent point. To me is seems like a lot of this games mechanics are being based solely on how to prevent people from doing this or that. We dont like "rest scumming": put in a system that forces you to rest in only certain locations, We dont like "ability / spell casting scumming": put in cooldowns, We dont like players "level scumming": put in quest based experience, We dont like players "topping off before battles scumming", see "rest scumming" and "ability scumming". So much energy is being funneled into forcing the players to play only one way. Im not even particulalry opposed to new mechanics, just mechanics that sound like their only purpose is to harsh my buzz. I just dont want everything to be a hassle, I want to have fun. 2 "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa"
rjshae Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 I too want to have fun, but in a game that takes itself seriously. I.e. a game that feels like it is trying to simulate reality. "It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."
Eryn Shades Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Luckily we will have betas for this and the testers hopefully will show which mecanics work fine and which need refinement.
Lady Evenstar Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) Luckily we will have betas for this and the testers hopefully will show which mecanics work fine and which need refinement. But beta will likely be a little late for basic redesign. The game we pledged to support was an IE nostalgia game. Those games were not grim grinds that placed low value on player time. The game mechanics Josh describes sound distinctly unfun to me. I'd intended to increase my pledge to include the expansion. Now I wonder if I don't want to lower it to an amount that will annoy me less if the game turns out not to be my cup of tea (or what was pitched). Edited October 16, 2012 by Lady Evenstar 3
Monte Carlo Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 I too want to have fun, but in a game that takes itself seriously. My problem is I suspect this game might end up taking itself a bit *too* seriously. It's high-fantasy. Which needs to be, just now and ten, light and shade. I.e. a game that feels like it is trying to simulate reality. Which is where we probably have irreconcilable POVs on what constitutes fun. The whole point of a CRPG is to be fun by simulating a distinct unreality. Sorry to be harsh, but there has been an influx of shrill Codex-inspired hipsters and story-tyme obsessed-LARPers over the past few days.
HoneyBaked Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 The main question should be, is this fun? Going back and forth to rest/heal, does it feel FUN or does it feel like punishment/work? Lets not forget the mega dungeon, no healing potions and only being able to do the timesink healing all the way through...meh I think this is an excellent point. To me is seems like a lot of this games mechanics are being based solely on how to prevent people from doing this or that. We dont like "rest scumming": put in a system that forces you to rest in only certain locations, We dont like "ability / spell casting scumming": put in cooldowns, We dont like players "level scumming": put in quest based experience, We dont like players "topping off before battles scumming", see "rest scumming" and "ability scumming". So much energy is being funneled into forcing the players to play only one way. Im not even particulalry opposed to new mechanics, just mechanics that sound like their only purpose is to harsh my buzz. I just dont want everything to be a hassle, I want to have fun. They are very early in development. Identifying both features they want to include and the issues they want to either avoid or minimize is expected. There isn't a PR team from a publisher reviewing all the developers comments and making sure they have positive feel.
Zack Fair Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 One of our fellow Codexers made a good point about the health/stamina system: Aeschylus said: ↑ I'm a tad late to the party, but after giving it some thought I wanted to put in my two cents on the proposed stamina/health system. In summation, I like the *concept* of a mixed system, but I'm not crazy about the discussed implementation. To explain why, I will use as an example my favorite implementation of a combined health and stamina system; no, not Betrayal at Krondor, not Darklands, but Quest for Glory. I consider QFG something of a paragon of great game design, and while it's obviously not completely analogous to a pure RPG such as PE, I think the basic lessons of how the system was implemented apply. My first relevant issue w/the PE system: Stamina and Health are too close to being the same thing. Obviously I don't know the exact specifics of the proposed system, but it sounds as if Stamina is just a slightly easier to regenerate buffer on health. Ok, fine, but why? In QFG, Stamina was a universal resource. Basically everything you did used some stamina (including getting hit), and that worked well. Health would only be lost from being hit (or doing things that would obviously damage health like falling), or if you had no stamina, anything you did would damage health. If you're going to have a dual-system, have an actual reason and separate purpose for both stats, not just that it's a solution to a meta-design problem. And speaking of the primary issue here: rest scumming... QFG provides a nice guide to how to prevent it: simply don't allow it. I'm sure most people here are familiar with the system, but in QFG it went like this -- a short rest could be taken to restore a small amount of stamina and no health. You could rest for a while, but eventually you'd stop being tired, and couldn't rest. How hard would a system like that be to implement in an RPG? Not hard at all. You could only restore your health with a full night's rest, which you could only do after you became tired, not at any time. I mean, the IE games already had a fatigue system built in. If preventing rest-scumming is the primary motivation behind this system, then it should be reconsidered. Finally, the question of the rate at which you can restore health/stamina. As mentioned, there was a fair bit of attrition in QFG, though nothing unmanagable. Health potions were difficult to come by (except in 2, where you could buy like a billion) and were often prohibitively expensive. All this necessitated was intelligent use of resources, not resting all the damn time. Why? Because the rest of the game was intelligently designed to make the attrition both manageable and challenging. This is what Josh Sawyer and co should be aiming for; intelligent encounter design, well dispersed resources, and a system that encourages good use of those resources. Again, I'm not set against a stamina/health system, but there should be a solid design reason for having stamina as an additional resource, not just preventing excessive resting. Maybe they do have that and just haven't expanded on it yet, but just having the system for the sake of having the system and being different is lazy design. If you want to make health harder to restore, that's fine -- but having a second health stat with no other explained in-game purpose (yes, that's basically what it sounds like) is just redundant. 1 J_C from Codexia
Sollips Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) The main question should be, is this fun? Going back and forth to rest/heal, does it feel FUN or does it feel like punishment/work? Lets not forget the mega dungeon, no healing potions and only being able to do the timesink healing all the way through...meh I think this is an excellent point. To me is seems like a lot of this games mechanics are being based solely on how to prevent people from doing this or that. We dont like "rest scumming": put in a system that forces you to rest in only certain locations, We dont like "ability / spell casting scumming": put in cooldowns, We dont like players "level scumming": put in quest based experience, We dont like players "topping off before battles scumming", see "rest scumming" and "ability scumming". So much energy is being funneled into forcing the players to play only one way. Im not even particulalry opposed to new mechanics, just mechanics that sound like their only purpose is to harsh my buzz. I just dont want everything to be a hassle, I want to have fun. Greetings, I do second that wholeheartedly. I for one am most oriented towards escapism than pseudo-hardcore-realism (no ill wil intended) through a computer. I am very enthusiaistic about the project a s a whole, but it's true these particular points regarding the healing and so on have me cringing a bit... On a Side note, I am simply ecstatic that we passed the 3.5 M !! Really. Awesome Edited October 16, 2012 by Sollips 3
john_boy Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 I'm also not following your logic Gatt9. You will still get xp from exploration. I think some folks are jumping to the wrong conclusion when they hear objective/goal based xp. These won't be only tied to the main story, but rather every thing you do in the game. Every encounter out in the world will have an xp reward tied to it. That was my initial thought, so you receive xp after each kill on a particular dungeon level, not for reaching the *end* of that level.
Monte Carlo Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 All bitching aside, making history with the Kickstarter is tremendous news, kudos to Obsidian. 2
Olauron Mor-Galad Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Health and Stamina system is really great. It encourages both tactical and strategic planning, it can differentiate classes a lot. Just imagine how different will act classes with high stamina / low health and low stamina / high health. The barbarian example proves that the developers already look at this opportunity. An objective-based experience can be interesting. It solves some problems yet doesn't create problems itself. Even every random encounter can be assigned with a hidden objective so that a party gets experience for "Dealing with encounter". 1
Bloody Hypocrite Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 All bitching aside, making history with the Kickstarter is tremendous news, kudos to Obsidian. Damn Skippy.
john_boy Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Health and Stamina system is really great. It encourages both tactical and strategic planning, it can differentiate classes a lot. So long as you don't get max health/stamina on level up
Monte Carlo Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 When is the final update btw, I suppose it's nearing 10am in SoCal.
rjshae Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 I too want to have fun, but in a game that takes itself seriously. My problem is I suspect this game might end up taking itself a bit *too* seriously. It's high-fantasy. Which needs to be, just now and ten, light and shade. I.e. a game that feels like it is trying to simulate reality. Which is where we probably have irreconcilable POVs on what constitutes fun. The whole point of a CRPG is to be fun by simulating a distinct unreality. True. The designers will never be able to please everybody. In the end it's a judgment call. I trimmed the troll bait at the end of your message as unworthy of discussion. "It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."
Monte Carlo Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 ^ True we should call a truce for the end of the Kickstarter. 1
Ieo Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 ^ True we should call a truce for the end of the Kickstarter. Has this thread gotten back to normal now? I hope the next update will have art---all released characters in the original Sagani style. DO IT. Yes, I'm being demanding. The KS Collector's Edition does not include the Collector's Book. Which game hook brought you to Project Eternity and interests you the most? PE will not have co-op/multiplayer, console, or tablet support (sources): [0] [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] Write your own romance mods because there won't be any in PE. "But what is an evil? Is it like water or like a hedgehog or night or lumpy?" -(Digger) "Most o' you wanderers are but a quarter moon away from lunacy at the best o' times." -Alvanhendar (Baldur's Gate 1)
TristanD Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 When I ran AD&D games, I used both methods of handing out XP. I rewarded XP for completing quests and for killing monsters (as well as bonus XP for good role playing, etc.). Similar to NWN2 I gave less XP for lower level monsters. I think a good system that wasn't viable for pen and paper would be a sliding scale. Each monster has its own abilities and methods of fighting. Each monster type is given a base XP amount. For each monster of that type killed, the XP is reduced some to reflect the "sameness" of the fight/encounter. Doing the same thing over and over will net less and less experience over time. So say you killed an orc and got 10 XP, then after say 10 orcs, now orcs are worth 9xp for that character. This could be mixed with a level based comparison to reduce the XP gained from killing things that are too weak to be a learning experience for the character. My example is obviously just an example that would need to be tweaked to balance the game, but I think the general idea of the system would be a good compromise, and be more realistic as an experience based system. Enforcer of the Obsidian Order
RTWAP Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) BUT WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE TO YOU? It's a single player game for chrissakes. What if you could also get XP just for hanging around in town, interacting with NPCs? It would be another form of grinding I guess. So someone who didn't grind in combat could conceivably advance as fast or faster than your guy on a wilderness rampage. Would you accept the argument that your grinding isn't affected by the existence of an easier path to XP because it's a single player game? Edited October 16, 2012 by RTWAP
Elerond Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) Love Stamina/Health system As stamina represent how dazzled character is by hit and health represent how much actual physical damage hit made. And when you add that there is no magic cure for physical damage, the over all system sound very good. Exp system is fine by me, as it is always been bit silly in games that you can get 2000 xp if you use sneak/speak/etc. method to get past of encounter and then you get another 2000xp if you came back and kill every body. So encounter+objective+quest based xp system is usually much better even in p&p systems. Because you get rewarded from exploration and killing random encounters but there is no xp mechanics to be exploited that you get encounter xp twice from same encounter. Edited October 16, 2012 by Elerond
wickermoon Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 BUT WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE TO YOU? It's a single player game for chrissakes. What if you could also get XP just for hanging around in town, interacting with NPCs? It would be another form of grinding I guess. So someone who didn't grind in combat could conceivably advance as fast or faster than your guy on a wilderness rampage. Would you accept the argument that your grinding isn't affected by the existence of an easier path to XP because it's a single player game? Wait wait wait wait wait...you GRINDED Baldur's Gate? That's ridiculous. 1 Yay, my badge :3
Polyhedron Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 What's this "it" that you think I'm assuming is a culture of everyone for themselves? The campaign setting is whatever one feels it's appropriate to be. The DM decides that, s/he doesn't assume anything... This "it" is the presentation of an unavoidable dilemma as I read your writing: either you get that dark themed class division (where money matters), or else you "run into inconsistencies." The first appears as a setting (chosen) the other as a worldbuilding flaw. I was trying to point out that this dualism was not necessarily the case. And even as DMs decide settings, they IMO should pay heed to the coherence of their world. I come from a country with public health care, but in my opinion these modern kinds of systems usually feel quite anachronistic in a medieval/renaissance-esque D&D setting. Whether or not its appropriate to have a system of state-supported free healthcare will depend on a range of political, cultural, economic and religious issues. I agree, and was not in any way supposing it SHOULD be introduced. I was merely stating that it COULD be a way out of the (in my eyes) false dichotomy. For me, it's important to work within the confines of the campaign I've set up, not impose social mores of the real world. It's a game for my friends to enjoy, not a platform for one ideology or another. Though it need not be "imposed" as much as "referred to." And if you don't care for analysis for ideologies, that's fine - others for their part can find great enjoyment in considering how different ideas/ideologies mix and act. Small deviations from "reality" are also in my experience easier to control than entirely imagined ones. (Though those can be great fun too.) 1
firstarioch Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 JOSH !!! PLEASE dont listen to these people etc... What they want etc... not my cup of tea... They will be the first to say that it sucks or you should have stuck to your original vision... PLEASE stick to your initial concept and your gut feel...You can be trusted with that, . Dont dilute it too much .... Make it Story driven etc how you want it to be... No point repeating the mechanics from other games etc... Its good to bring something new... I for one dont want B Gate 1 or 2 or I Dale or anything else just repeated with shiny graphics...makes zero sense.. I want something new breathed into the old concept etc to make it modern and relevant.... Anybody who wants repeats from other games please go and replay those games but dont bring your your old thinking here... I want something new ....story ,mechanics , interface , magic etc .... Progress and open mind PLEASE people....
Gfted1 Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 ^The irony is strong in you, padawan. 3 "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa"
firstarioch Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 ^The irony is strong in you, padawan. it drives me nuts that people say use this from that game or i want it like this ...not my cup of tea... What is wrong with doing things new?!!!... New system etc ...Innovation and progress not borrowing.... It drives me mad some comments on this thread ...Deus Ex mechanics, Icwind ****ing Dale etc... Might as well just repeat them all ... Obsidian is doing something new in old format to make relevant ... they should be allowed and celebrated ...!!!! not encouraged to do copy and paste ....
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