Ieo Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Well, we agreed to try to keep one thread open, but I don't see anything wrong in touching other areas related to human nature and interaction, as long as it happens in a civil and non-confrontational way. Hmm, here's a zinger then: what would happen if the PC has a relationship with one of the companions, then a couple of levels later it is discovered the companion (or the PC) is pregnant? Didn't that happen to Aerie in BG2 at some point? I never romanced her, so I don't know the details. @Osvir I don't believe stories "benefit" or not by inclusion of romance but rather that such stories are either designed to be such from the outset by virtue of genre application or the plot mechanism is specifically added to hook proponents of said genre--thus romance is not something I see as having additional intrinsic value in a fictional work, but is either the underlying nature of the story itself already or is used for marketing. Either you like the genre and reactive positively to the audience targeting, or you don't care for it (for whatever reasons). That said, literature and interactive binary computer programming cannot be fully equated anyway, IMO, which I discussed in one of the locked romance threads. My preference still goes for an 80/20 implementation of non/romance content. The KS Collector's Edition does not include the Collector's Book. Which game hook brought you to Project Eternity and interests you the most? PE will not have co-op/multiplayer, console, or tablet support (sources): [0] [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] Write your own romance mods because there won't be any in PE. "But what is an evil? Is it like water or like a hedgehog or night or lumpy?" -(Digger) "Most o' you wanderers are but a quarter moon away from lunacy at the best o' times." -Alvanhendar (Baldur's Gate 1)
Tamerlane Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Well, we agreed to try to keep one thread open, but I don't see anything wrong in touching other areas related to human nature and interaction, as long as it happens in a civil and non-confrontational way. Hmm, here's a zinger then: what would happen if the PC has a relationship with one of the companions, then a couple of levels later it is discovered the companion (or the PC) is pregnant? Didn't that happen to Aerie in BG2 at some point? I never romanced her, so I don't know the details. Yes, and it was kind of completely terrible.
Gorth Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 My preference still goes for an 80/20 implementation of non/romance content. But what *is* romance? I don't like "Emos", particularly not in my video games, but I'm fascinated in a morbid way by strong human emotions. For me, 'love' is just one such thing that a writer has in his/her arsenal to convey strong emotions. Similar to hate, jealousy, obsession, philosophical zeal, rage, contempt, prejudice etc. If it helps to create viable characters and interactions, tension and relief, punishment and reward, I'm all for it. Just as long as it doen't become monotonous and all about a single emotion. Well, we agreed to try to keep one thread open, but I don't see anything wrong in touching other areas related to human nature and interaction, as long as it happens in a civil and non-confrontational way. Hmm, here's a zinger then: what would happen if the PC has a relationship with one of the companions, then a couple of levels later it is discovered the companion (or the PC) is pregnant? Didn't that happen to Aerie in BG2 at some point? I never romanced her, so I don't know the details. Yes, and it was kind of completely terrible. Wasn't that in the ToB expansion? Only completed that one twice. Now I'm curious as to how that bit actually plays out 3 “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein
rjshae Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Well, we agreed to try to keep one thread open, but I don't see anything wrong in touching other areas related to human nature and interaction, as long as it happens in a civil and non-confrontational way. Hmm, here's a zinger then: what would happen if the PC has a relationship with one of the companions, then a couple of levels later it is discovered the companion (or the PC) is pregnant? Deny everything and move to a new continent? Edit: On a more serious note, it is a situation that *could* be put to good use by a good writer. How it plays out and if you actually end up having to support somebody is not a given. Quite so. Of course, it does rather significantly fork the main plot. The writers would either have to arrange an unfortunate short-term resolution, or else insert a lengthy time break while the couple takes care of the child. "It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."
Gorth Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Well, we agreed to try to keep one thread open, but I don't see anything wrong in touching other areas related to human nature and interaction, as long as it happens in a civil and non-confrontational way. Hmm, here's a zinger then: what would happen if the PC has a relationship with one of the companions, then a couple of levels later it is discovered the companion (or the PC) is pregnant? Deny everything and move to a new continent? Edit: On a more serious note, it is a situation that *could* be put to good use by a good writer. How it plays out and if you actually end up having to support somebody is not a given. Quite so. Of course, it does rather significantly fork the main plot. The writers would either have to arrange an unfortunate short-term resolution, or else insert a lengthy time break while the couple takes care of the child. it *could* give you an interesting antagonist in PE II. Preferably it would be optional though, as you could just have kept your pants on, then you wouldn't have to leave a companion somewhere during the final part of the game “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein
Orogun01 Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 But what *is* romance? I don't like "Emos", particularly not in my video games, but I'm fascinated in a morbid way by strong human emotions. For me, 'love' is just one such thing that a writer has in his/her arsenal to convey strong emotions. Similar to hate, jealousy, obsession, philosophical zeal, rage, contempt, prejudice etc. If it helps to create viable characters and interactions, tension and relief, punishment and reward, I'm all for it. Just as long as it doen't become monotonous and all about a single emotion. In video games, romance = sex scenes/fade to black and implied sex I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"* *If you can't tell, it's you.
Gorth Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 But what *is* romance? I don't like "Emos", particularly not in my video games, but I'm fascinated in a morbid way by strong human emotions. For me, 'love' is just one such thing that a writer has in his/her arsenal to convey strong emotions. Similar to hate, jealousy, obsession, philosophical zeal, rage, contempt, prejudice etc. If it helps to create viable characters and interactions, tension and relief, punishment and reward, I'm all for it. Just as long as it doen't become monotonous and all about a single emotion. In video games, romance = sex scenes/fade to black and implied sex Then people need to get "real". The two things have nothing to do with each other. You can love somebody yet never have sex with them just as you can have sex with a score people without caring about any of them >_ I'm just looking for people in my games that intrigues me somehow. Can they make me care about their fate, so much the better, but not if it's rammed down my throat that I have to god damn care about peasant girl 'A' or else (thinly veiled NWN2 reference)... 2 “He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice.” - Albert Einstein
LadyCrimson Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 But what *is* romance? When Harry Met Sally. Pygmalion. I tend towards dark humor or tragic/ambiguous romance. A longing that's never quite fulfilled (or takes forever to realize) or a love lost/abandoned feels more poignant and emotionally affecting than Disney or Harlequin. “Things are as they are. Looking out into the universe at night, we make no comparisons between right and wrong stars, nor between well and badly arranged constellations.” – Alan Watts
D3xter Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 No, please go away :/ I want a great game with a many deep and thoughtful quests and not a dating simulator, the two simply don't fit together. There's those Japanese games for that, or BioWare.
BSoda Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 No, please go away :/ I want a great game with a many deep and thoughtful quests and not a dating simulator, the two simply don't fit together. There's those Japanese games for that, or BioWare. Urgh, this kind of completely baseless lamenting really gets on my nerves. You know, there is still time to withdraw your pledge. Perhaps you should do that instead of rambling about "dating simulators" and "certain japanese" games. 2
D3xter Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) Urgh, this kind of completely baseless lamenting really gets on my nerves. You know, there is still time to withdraw your pledge. Perhaps you should do that instead of rambling about "dating simulators" and "certain japanese" games. Perhaps you should? As far as I know they haven't announced anything of the likes and don't seem to want to or they wouldn't be avoiding the issue and all these topics or outright "banning" them from the forums for the last few weeks, yet here we have people like you crawling out of their holes from the depths of BSN every few days asking for them to implement this dating simulator experience to make you feel better and stroke your ego instead of making a better game, caring about a higher quality of writing or tackling serious societal issues instead. Edited October 16, 2012 by D3xter
Lusankya Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) No, please go away :/ I want a great game with a many deep and thoughtful quests and not a dating simulator, the two simply don't fit together. There's those Japanese games for that, or BioWare. Explain how the option to have a romance (or just a friendship) with a fellow NPC makes this game into a dating simulator and prevents it from having deep and thoughtful quests. I don't want a castle in this game, because I want a great game with a many deep and thoughtful quests and not a "The Sims" like game. I don't want weapons and armor in this game, because I want a great game with a many deep and thoughtful quests and not a dress-up game. I don't want too much text in this game, because I want a great game with a many deep and thoughtful quests and not a visual novel. I don't want crafting in this game, because I want a great game with a many deep and thoughtful quests and not a Cooking Mama game. Edited October 16, 2012 by Lusankya 7
Orogun01 Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Then people need to get "real". The two things have nothing to do with each other. You can love somebody yet never have sex with them just as you can have sex with a score people without caring about any of them I'm just looking for people in my games that intrigues me somehow. Can they make me care about their fate, so much the better, but not if it's rammed down my throat that I have to god damn care about peasant girl 'A' or else (thinly veiled NWN2 reference)... In PE's case that may well work since they counted the reason for no romances as having to do with the "condition" of the main character, it could be a sexless romance put there just to really give the player a sense of aggravation. P.S. Don't romance any peasant girls they are known disease carriers. I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"* *If you can't tell, it's you.
Osvir Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Then people need to get "real". The two things have nothing to do with each other. You can love somebody yet never have sex with them just as you can have sex with a score people without caring about any of them I'm just looking for people in my games that intrigues me somehow. Can they make me care about their fate, so much the better, but not if it's rammed down my throat that I have to god damn care about peasant girl 'A' or else (thinly veiled NWN2 reference)... In PE's case that may well work since they counted the reason for no romances as having to do with the "condition" of the main character, it could be a sexless romance put there just to really give the player a sense of aggravation. P.S. Don't romance any peasant girls they are known disease carriers. Who is to say that your main character has to romance anyone? What if two of your companions find an attraction for each other, I think that's easier to write as well.
Orogun01 Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Then people need to get "real". The two things have nothing to do with each other. You can love somebody yet never have sex with them just as you can have sex with a score people without caring about any of them I'm just looking for people in my games that intrigues me somehow. Can they make me care about their fate, so much the better, but not if it's rammed down my throat that I have to god damn care about peasant girl 'A' or else (thinly veiled NWN2 reference)... In PE's case that may well work since they counted the reason for no romances as having to do with the "condition" of the main character, it could be a sexless romance put there just to really give the player a sense of aggravation. P.S. Don't romance any peasant girls they are known disease carriers. Who is to say that your main character has to romance anyone? What if two of your companions find an attraction for each other, I think that's easier to write as well. If I have to watch two lovebirds in a game I want the option to cleave their heads, its bad enough that I can't do it in RL but if I can't do it in my fantasies then I really don't see the point of roleplaying I'd say the answer to that question is kind of like the answer to "who's the sucker in this poker game?"* *If you can't tell, it's you.
Bos_hybrid Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 But what *is* romance? Today it's Twilight. Tomorrow it's the Hunger Games..... In Mass Effect, the opposite occurred. The romances were nowhere near as central as the tone of the relationship suggested they should be. Wait what? By the end of the series there was 10! 10 of them, an absolute joke. I'm pretty sure Shepard had been genetically enhanced to give off 'in heat' pheromones. As for romances in PE, I've decided I'm indifferent to them if done like they were in MoTB. That means they have minimal impact on story, there are two (not 4,5,6,7) in the entire game, they don't change the character to suit the PC(ex Veronica from NV, was a lesbian, not bi, not straight) and doesn't lock out most interaction for those that don't 'romance'(ex Garrus ME2). If they can follow this, and Avellone can withhold the projectile vomiting or hand the writing of them to Ziets(sorry bro), so be it. However if they are in, but playing as a villain isn't, I have a fart bombs ready for Obs.
D3xter Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) Explain how the option to have a romance (or just a friendship) with a fellow NPC makes this game into a dating simulator and prevents it from having deep and thoughtful quests. Because the quality of said writing takes a divejump off the nearest rooftop as soon as they start specifically pandering to sexually frustrated people and the LGBT and pony-romancing crowd producing at best cringeworthy results... Exhibit A: BioWare. I don't want a castle in this game, because I want a great game with a many deep and thoughtful quests and not a "The Sims" like game.I don't want weapons and armor useless decorative clothing in this game, because I want a great game with a many deep and thoughtful quests and not a dress-up game. I don't want too much text in this game, because I want a great game with a many deep and thoughtful quests and not a visual novel. I don't want crafting in this game, because I want a great game with a many deep and thoughtful quests and not a Cooking Mama game. Then we want the same game and understand each other. I like Planescape, Icewind Dale etc. too, except for that one part that doesn't make any sense and would do the exact opposite of what you said. Edited October 16, 2012 by D3xter
Shades Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) Message to Chris Avellone If people keep asking for romances even though there's a moratorium on romance threads, please do what you do best: make those tragic romances that punish the player. I know how much you hate those sissy happy romances, so I, as a humble fan of your work, implore you to either not give in to the lonely masses, or better yet, to punish them for their ridiculous desire with more tragic or twisted romances as you have in the past. They'll probably be thankful for whatever you come up with, even if you're mocking them as you do it. You're right, I would love to see romances like those in PS:T (Annah and Fall from Grace) and MotB (Gannayev, don't think I tried Safiya) in PE. I also liked Atton in Kotor2, though I seem to recall something about him not being an actual romance (and I didn't care for... Mical was it?). Interestingly although I like bad endings I didn't like Bishop in NWN2 at all. If Avellone wants to write tragic and twisted romances with bad endings, then I say go ahead. And I will probably like it, because half the time I make up bad endings for my characters anyway (they go insane or die or are in one-sided relationships or get maimed horribly or broken emotionally or betrayed and ditched by their romance interest or they use their romance interest to further their own ends or... You get the idea. Most do not end well, I am terrible to my characters ) If I'm given tragic romance, I will most certainly take it. With glee. Sidenote: Others however may want slightly less tragedy and the like, which is understandable. Edited October 16, 2012 by Shades
rjshae Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 But what *is* romance? I don't like "Emos", particularly not in my video games, but I'm fascinated in a morbid way by strong human emotions. For me, 'love' is just one such thing that a writer has in his/her arsenal to convey strong emotions. Similar to hate, jealousy, obsession, philosophical zeal, rage, contempt, prejudice etc. If it helps to create viable characters and interactions, tension and relief, punishment and reward, I'm all for it. Just as long as it doen't become monotonous and all about a single emotion. In video games, romance = sex scenes/fade to black and implied sex Yes and it seems just a tad anticlimactic and unsatisfying. Would it work if they take the Hallmark card approach: throw up a fuzzy romantic watercolor with a thoughtful poem and some tasteful music? "It has just been discovered that research causes cancer in rats."
Malcador Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 Who is to say that your main character has to romance anyone? What if two of your companions find an attraction for each other, I think that's easier to write as well. Yeah, but not much point to that, people need their PC to experience things to be immersed, or something. Although that would be kind of funny in my view if everyone's hooking up and just leaving the PC by their lonesome. Why has elegance found so little following? Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it. - Edsger Wybe Dijkstra
BruceVC Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 oh, ok. I thought we all liked to be able to pursue romances and friendships :S Most of us do, there was a good poll that showed that most people wanted an element of Romance\Sex in the game. But there is a small and vociferous group that jump on every Romance discussion and say things like " No Romance, an RPG is not about Romance" and aarguments start and the thread gets closed. Now I am not going to say who is right or wrong, I support Romance/Sex, but I will not presume to tell you what defines your RPG experience by telling you " what an RPG is". This would be hubris, and who likes to be told they are arrogant? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
Tick Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) ...and doesn't lock out most interaction for those that don't 'romance'(ex Garrus ME2). This is my main concern. I'm totally fine with romances or no - if the writers feel willing and they have the time, and fans want it, why not let 'em have it? It's optional (or, at least, it should be) and harmless, and I find it rather suspicious that people would get so uptight about sexuality or romance when it isn't mandatory (assuming, of course, it doesn't hurt the quality of the writing or game otherwise). Reminds me a bit of those people who disapprove vehemently of certain language, and then go looking for all the naughty words in the dictionary to make sure they aren't there. However, a big thing for me is interesting, in-depth characters, who I can interact with in various ways and learn more about. Although I'm sure other games have done it, or leaned toward it, I always remember how awful it was in ME2 that I couldn't watch a character develop or have any or many conversations with them (more so in comparison to a P.C. that was romancing them) because I wasn't the right gender or didn't try to woo the character. Garrus, Jacob, Miranda, and Tali were among those that seemed especially, blatantly stuck as romantic interests alone. I believe Dragon Age: Origins was a lot better about it, though I'm not positive. I recall being able to properly speak to the characters, each having their own problems and ideas/beliefs, whether or not I pursued them romantically. It wasn't a requirement to get character interaction and development, and there wasn't weird favoritism over which character was given more attention by the game. Fallout: New Vegas was also very good about it, when it was at its best (Veronica, Boone, etc.). Though some companions were neglected, and I don't recall any potential romances existing. Edited October 16, 2012 by Tick
BSoda Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 (edited) Urgh, this kind of completely baseless lamenting really gets on my nerves. You know, there is still time to withdraw your pledge. Perhaps you should do that instead of rambling about "dating simulators" and "certain japanese" games. Perhaps you should? As far as I know they haven't announced anything of the likes and don't seem to want to or they wouldn't be avoiding the issue and all these topics or outright "banning" them from the forums for the last few weeks, yet here we have people like you crawling out of their holes from the depths of BSN every few days asking for them to implement this dating simulator experience to make you feel better and stroke your ego instead of making a better game, caring about a higher quality of writing or tackling serious societal issues instead. Uh-huh...except Avelone already made a statement on this topic, citing that there will be "a variety of mature relationships" in PE and the mods officially lifted the ban on romance threads as a result of this. All this in this very thread, which you obviously didn't bother to read...oh well, I guess the thread title alone was enough for your knee-jerk "I'm against it !!!" reaction. What a shocker. But whatever. I'm 100% sure that what we will be getting in PE will be nothing that resembles those "Bioware romances" you dread so much. Edited October 16, 2012 by BSoda 2
BruceVC Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 [ But whatever. I'm 100% sure that what we will be getting in PE will be nothing that resembles those "Bioware romances" you dread so much. Well said, I concur 100 % "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela
ArchBeast Posted October 16, 2012 Posted October 16, 2012 And what about negative relations ? If you have murderer and rapist in your party and you are paladin then he will almost allways disagree with you, and if he will got pissed enough even mayby try to kill you were you are alone or spleeping. Roge when pissed may steal from you, pladin can atact you if he jump to conclusion that you are "evil" etc. In NWN2 at the ending some of your comapniong might even join your nemesis to kill you. And even you can join Archevil agins whole your party i think that this was of biggest reasons i like NWN2... I think that not onle romances and frinships can be done in eternity but also hatred. I liked Alpha protocol desin in influence-system, everywon can love (npcs, enemys, friends etc), like or hate you and ALLWAYS you have some benefits from that Having enemy that likes and respect you (but still is you enemy) or hate you gave you diffrend benefits... What do you think about that ? http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61276-orcs-discussion/
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