Help me decide to back this project

[Kamos]

Hello, everyone.

 

After watching the Kickstarter video, I was literally one click away from backing this project for all I could afford. However, after reading more about it and watching some interviews with the Obsidian team, I am now leaning towards not backing.

 

Please note that I'm not trying to troll Obsidian or the project. I want to want to back this project! But I am undecided, and looking for some answers. It may well be that my concerns are unfounded. So, without further ado, here are the things that have raised "attention" flags in my mind:

 

1) I watched an interview with Josh Sawyer where he mentions that some people expected Project Eternity to have crafting (without it even being a stretch goal), since it is something that cRPGs are "supposed to have" nowadays. I am very concerned that Obsidian might be adding this as an afterthought, as something that a game is "supposed to have" rather than a legitimate game element that is part of their vision.

 

Let me explain what I mean.

 

In pretty much every cRPG that comes to my mind, crafting is "a way to get cool gear" (that is actually how devs describe it). Which is to say, it adds absolutely nothing to the gameplay. Rather, I'd argue that, since it is often so poorly implemented mechanically, it detracts from the game by removing verisimilitude.

 

Further, crafting creates the need to "gather" from every bush, node and corpse you come across. That, in turn, results in characters lugging around every single thing they find. Because hey, it might be useful for... something.

 

Now, I can understand crafting in a game when it feels like it is part of the game world. Making bread in "Ultima 7" is one example. Making the bamboo flintlock in "Savage Empire" is another example. Arcanum also had something along that line, with "inventions" being integral to a technologist's development.

 

Has there been any word about which way crafting is going in Project Eternity?

 

2) Some of my fondest memories with ye olde cRPGs is dying horribly to completely unbalanced battles / traps / challenges. Walking into the wasteland and getting owned by a patrol of super mutants immediately comes to my mind.

 

I can't stand games that auto-balance everything around you (from D&D 3rd edition to Oblivion). You may find it silly, but this is really a dealbreaker for me because it says volumes about the mindset in which the game was made. I know Fallout: New Vegas was a bit more unforgiving than FO3, so I guess my question is: can I expect PE to take off the kiddy gloves?

 

3) Modern cRPGs have streamlined inventories to the point where they don't exist. Often, the inventory is a list of items, plus a weight limit just so that your inventory isn't absolutely everything you come across in the game. Seriously, this is poor design. But I suppose it was to be expected, since games have always encouraged players to do busywork by going back and forth hauling short bows and leather armors looted from kobolds.

 

However, I'd ask this: why were they hauling so much trash in the first place? Why is "adventuring" so disfunctional in cRPGs? You don't go adventuring for trash, you go adventuring for treasure!

 

In old school pen 'n paper RPGs, choosing what to bring with you was a big decision. Too little equipment and you'd be unprepared; too much and you wouldn't be able to run if things turned sour. Deciding how much food and lamp oil was a huge decision to make in dungeon crawls. Getting trapped by a sliding wall in a dungeon with no food is no laughing matter. Actually, any adventuring expedition worth its salt would hire NPCs for that single purpose: carrying things.

 

So, my third and final question is this: what kind of inventory will we see in PE? Will we at least have backpacks, as in Torment and BG, or are we going to have a list of stuff that enables hoarders to carry every single thing they come across?

 

Thank you for reading. I wasn't planning to write a wall of text, but it happened. Sorry.

 

Edit: trying to fix my wonky english.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Kamos

[Acridine Orange]

Short reply to some big questions: For points 1 and 2, I completely get where you are coming from and agree with you. I have scoured a lot of the Q and A comments, updates, interviews, etc., and the devs have actually talked quite a bit about both of those points. As far as I can tell, and if their history is anything to go off of, you can rest easy and erase your hang ups from 1 and 2. They have specifically stated that they WANT some areas to be too difficult at lower levels, and they won't be using level scaling like The Elder Scrolls or Fallout 3 or anything.

 

As for the crafting, they have voiced similar concerns as your own in that they don't want it to end up being scrounging for every last trinket and hauling around all of this useless stuff in case you might have a crafting use for it. I really liked how crafting was handled in NWN Mask of the Betrayer and BG 2, and they have said that they will implement a similar system. One that is meaningful, but that doesn't require a ton of specialized materials that you have to grind for.

 

As for number 3, good question, haven't seen much on that. But again, considering these guys' past work in this area and the designs they have put forth so far...well I have every confidence that it will turn out extremely well, however they decide to do it. I really encourage you to look around more at some of the info that has been put out, you will find a lot of details relevant to your questions.

 

Well so much for a short reply, anyway, I hope you back it because I think this is going to make for one hell of a great game. And I am pretty stingy with my gamepraise haha.

[Bobby Null]

Hello, everyone.

 

After watching the Kickstarter video, I was literally one click away from backing this project for all I could afford. However, after reading more about it and watching some interviews with the Obsidian team, I am now leaning towards not backing.

 

Please note that I'm not trying to troll Obsidian or the project. I want to want to back this project! But I am undecided, and looking for some answers. It may well be that my concerns are unfounded. So, without further ado, here are the things that have raised "attention" flags in my mind:

 

1) I watched an interview with Josh Sawyer where he mentions that some people expected Project Eternity to have crafting (without it even being a stretch goal), since it is something that cRPGs are "supposed to have" nowadays. I am very concerned that Obsidian might be adding this as an afterthought, as something that a game is "supposed to have" rather than a legitimate game element that is part of their vision.

 

Let me explain what I mean.

 

In pretty much every cRPG that comes to my mind, crafting is "a way to get cool gear" (that is actually how devs describe it). Which is to say, it adds absolutely nothing to the gameplay. Rather, I'd argue that, since it is often so poorly implemented mechanically, it detracts from the game by removing verisimilitude.

 

Further, crafting creates the need to "gather" from every bush, node and corpse you come across. That, in turn, results in characters lugging around every single thing they find. Because hey, it might be useful for... something.

 

Now, I can understand crafting in a game when it feels like it is part of the game world. Making bread in "Ultima 7" is one example. Making the bamboo flintlock in "Savage Empire" is another example. Arcanum also had something along that line, with "inventions" being integral to a technologist's development.

 

Has there been any word about which way crafting is going in Project Eternity?

 

2) Some of my fondest memories with ye olde cRPGs is dying horribly to completely unbalanced battles / traps / challenges. Walking into the wasteland and getting owned by a patrol of super mutants immediately comes to my mind.

 

I can't stand games that auto-balance everything around you (from D&D 3rd edition to Oblivion). You may find it silly, but this is really a dealbreaker for me because it says volumes about the mindset in which the game was made. I know Fallout: New Vegas was a bit more unforgiving than FO3, so I guess my question is: can I expect PE to take off the kiddy gloves?

 

3) Modern cRPGs have streamlined inventories to the point where they don't exist. Often, the inventory is a list of items, plus a weight limit just so that your inventory isn't absolutely everything you come across in the game. Seriously, this is poor design. But I suppose it was to be expected, since games have always incentivized players to do busywork by going back and forth hauling short bows and leather armors looted from kobolds.

 

However, I'd ask this: why were they hauling so much trash in the first place? Why is "adventuring" so disfunctional in cRPGs? You don't go adventuring for trash, you go adventuring for treasure!

 

In old school pen 'n pencil RPGs, choosing what to bring with you was a big decision. Too little equipment and you'd be unprepared; too much and you wouldn't be able to run if things turned sour. Deciding how much food and lamp oil was a huge decision to make in dungeon crawls. Getting trapped by a sliding wall in a dungeon with no food is no laughing matter. Actually, any adventuring expedition worth its salt would hire NPCs for that single purpose: carrying things.

 

So, my third and final question is this: what kind of inventory will we see in PE? Will we at least have backpacks, as in Torment and BG, or are we going to have a list of stuff that enables hoarders to carry every single thing they come across?

 

Thank you for reading. I wasn't planning to write a wall of text, but it happened. Sorry.

 

 

1. Crafting will not be an afterthought. I can't give you a ton of details on the system yet, as it has yet to be designed. I will tell you our goal is to give you things to craft without throwing the balance out the window. My personal preference is to have crafting be a tool to help fill in the weak spots in the party's inventory and allow the player to make some powerfull stuff with enough research and work. I do feel the best gear in the game should be aquired through adventuring. We aren't making an MMO. Again, it is really early in the development process. The design for the crafting system will not be touched for at least a few more months I'd guess, but have faith, we'll make something good.

 

2. We like giving the player the freedom to get his/her arse kicked if he/she ignores signs that say "Hey, you're not ready to be here yet!" and they try anyway. The trick is to communicate that information so the player knows an area, or a creature, is probably beyond his current level.

 

3. We will have weight in our inventory system, and with more party members (6) we can make that number much smaller than many newer games. We aren't looking to design something that is annoying however. We'll be playing with getting a bit of a "realistic" feel for the inventory without making it super annoying. Hope this helps.

 

Lastly, you should back Project Eternity because it is going to be awesome...duh

 

I keed, I keed. If your not comfortable donating, we completely understand and appreciate your interest to come to our boards and voice your concerns.

[eimatshya]

One of the updates with Tim Cain talks about level scaling. He says that they won't be using it in general, but it may be used in a limited way in certain story encounters.

 

There's also a Q&A tomorrow on Reddit at 10am PDT (i.e. GMT-8 ). You might be able to get your inventory question answered there.

 

Edit: Never mind about the inventory thing then, looks like Bobby just gave you their answer.

Edited October 15, 2012 by eimatshya

[YourVoiceisAmbrosia]

The game is designed to reflect elements from prior Infinity Engine games, such as Icewind Dale, Baldur's Gate, and Planescape Torment. It won't be an exact replica and there will be some differences, but it seems that most of the core elements are still reflected from these games. If you enjoyed them, then chances are you are going to like Project Eternity.

Edited October 15, 2012 by YourVoiceisAmbrosia

[Review or Die]

Hello, everyone.

 

After watching the Kickstarter video, I was literally one click away from backing this project for all I could afford. However, after reading more about it and watching some interviews with the Obsidian team, I am now leaning towards not backing.

 

Please note that I'm not trying to troll Obsidian or the project. I want to want to back this project! But I am undecided, and looking for some answers. It may well be that my concerns are unfounded. So, without further ado, here are the things that have raised "attention" flags in my mind:

 

1) I watched an interview with Josh Sawyer where he mentions that some people expected Project Eternity to have crafting (without it even being a stretch goal), since it is something that cRPGs are "supposed to have" nowadays. I am very concerned that Obsidian might be adding this as an afterthought, as something that a game is "supposed to have" rather than a legitimate game element that is part of their vision.

 

Let me explain what I mean.

 

In pretty much every cRPG that comes to my mind, crafting is "a way to get cool gear" (that is actually how devs describe it). Which is to say, it adds absolutely nothing to the gameplay. Rather, I'd argue that, since it is often so poorly implemented mechanically, it detracts from the game by removing verisimilitude.

 

Further, crafting creates the need to "gather" from every bush, node and corpse you come across. That, in turn, results in characters lugging around every single thing they find. Because hey, it might be useful for... something.

 

Now, I can understand crafting in a game when it feels like it is part of the game world. Making bread in "Ultima 7" is one example. Making the bamboo flintlock in "Savage Empire" is another example. Arcanum also had something along that line, with "inventions" being integral to a technologist's development.

 

Has there been any word about which way crafting is going in Project Eternity?

 

2) Some of my fondest memories with ye olde cRPGs is dying horribly to completely unbalanced battles / traps / challenges. Walking into the wasteland and getting owned by a patrol of super mutants immediately comes to my mind.

 

I can't stand games that auto-balance everything around you (from D&D 3rd edition to Oblivion). You may find it silly, but this is really a dealbreaker for me because it says volumes about the mindset in which the game was made. I know Fallout: New Vegas was a bit more unforgiving than FO3, so I guess my question is: can I expect PE to take off the kiddy gloves?

 

3) Modern cRPGs have streamlined inventories to the point where they don't exist. Often, the inventory is a list of items, plus a weight limit just so that your inventory isn't absolutely everything you come across in the game. Seriously, this is poor design. But I suppose it was to be expected, since games have always incentivized players to do busywork by going back and forth hauling short bows and leather armors looted from kobolds.

 

However, I'd ask this: why were they hauling so much trash in the first place? Why is "adventuring" so disfunctional in cRPGs? You don't go adventuring for trash, you go adventuring for treasure!

 

In old school pen 'n pencil RPGs, choosing what to bring with you was a big decision. Too little equipment and you'd be unprepared; too much and you wouldn't be able to run if things turned sour. Deciding how much food and lamp oil was a huge decision to make in dungeon crawls. Getting trapped by a sliding wall in a dungeon with no food is no laughing matter. Actually, any adventuring expedition worth its salt would hire NPCs for that single purpose: carrying things.

 

So, my third and final question is this: what kind of inventory will we see in PE? Will we at least have backpacks, as in Torment and BG, or are we going to have a list of stuff that enables hoarders to carry every single thing they come across?

 

Thank you for reading. I wasn't planning to write a wall of text, but it happened. Sorry.

 

 

1. Crafting will not be an afterthought. I can't give you a ton of details on the system yet, as it has yet to be designed. I will tell you our goal is to give you things to craft without throwing the balance out the window. My personal preference is to have crafting be a tool to help fill in the weak spots in the party's inventory and allow the player to make some powerfull stuff with enough research and work. I do feel the best gear in the game should be aquired through adventuring. We aren't making an MMO. Again, it is really early in the development process. The design for the crafting system will not be touched for at least a few more months I'd guess, but have faith, we'll make something good.

 

2. We like giving the player the freedom to get his/her arse kicked if he/she ignores signs that say "Hey, you're not ready to be here yet!" and they try anyway. The trick is to communicate that information so the player knows an area, or a creature, is probably beyond his current level.

 

3. We will have weight in our inventory system, and with more party members (6) we can make that number much smaller than many newer games. We aren't looking to design something that is annoying however. We'll be playing with getting a bit of a "realistic" feel for the inventory without making it super annoying. Hope this helps.

 

Lastly, you should back Project Eternity because it is going to be awesome...duh

 

I keed, I keed. If your not comfortable donating, we completely understand and appreciate your interest to come to our boards and voice your concerns.

Glad to hear your comment regarding the inventory. The Infinity Engine's inventory system never felt very fun to me, just... tedious. If it's well balanced to allow the tactical elements of the gameplay to shine through, doesn't frustrate the player, and doesn't require you to spend a whole lot of time playing with it to get to the story, I'll be happy.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Nice compromise for the inventory system, Bobby! And weight should really count for something.

[Feldoth]

 

1. Crafting will not be an afterthought. I can't give you a ton of details on the system yet, as it has yet to be designed. I will tell you our goal is to give you things to craft without throwing the balance out the window. My personal preference is to have crafting be a tool to help fill in the weak spots in the party's inventory and allow the player to make some powerfull stuff with enough research and work. I do feel the best gear in the game should be aquired through adventuring. We aren't making an MMO. Again, it is really early in the development process. The design for the crafting system will not be touched for at least a few more months I'd guess, but have faith, we'll make something good.

 

 

Follow-up question, how within the realm of possibility is it that crafting will be able to modify the stats/appearance/whatever of existing items? I'd personally like to be able to upgrade items I like for the entire game if I'm willing to put the effort into doing so. I'm not going to hold you to doing it, I'm just curious if it's something that is being considered.

[Bobby Null]

1. Crafting will not be an afterthought. I can't give you a ton of details on the system yet, as it has yet to be designed. I will tell you our goal is to give you things to craft without throwing the balance out the window. My personal preference is to have crafting be a tool to help fill in the weak spots in the party's inventory and allow the player to make some powerfull stuff with enough research and work. I do feel the best gear in the game should be aquired through adventuring. We aren't making an MMO. Again, it is really early in the development process. The design for the crafting system will not be touched for at least a few more months I'd guess, but have faith, we'll make something good.

 

 

Follow-up question, how within the realm of possibility is it that crafting will be able to modify the stats/appearance/whatever of existing items? I'd personally like to be able to upgrade items I like for the entire game if I'm willing to put the effort into doing so. I'm not going to hold you to doing it, I'm just curious if it's something that is being considered.

 

I wouldn't rule it out. No promises, but there are quite a few things we'll consider when designing the crafting system. This would be one of them.

[Feldoth]

1. Crafting will not be an afterthought. I can't give you a ton of details on the system yet, as it has yet to be designed. I will tell you our goal is to give you things to craft without throwing the balance out the window. My personal preference is to have crafting be a tool to help fill in the weak spots in the party's inventory and allow the player to make some powerfull stuff with enough research and work. I do feel the best gear in the game should be aquired through adventuring. We aren't making an MMO. Again, it is really early in the development process. The design for the crafting system will not be touched for at least a few more months I'd guess, but have faith, we'll make something good.

 

 

Follow-up question, how within the realm of possibility is it that crafting will be able to modify the stats/appearance/whatever of existing items? I'd personally like to be able to upgrade items I like for the entire game if I'm willing to put the effort into doing so. I'm not going to hold you to doing it, I'm just curious if it's something that is being considered.

 

I wouldn't rule it out. No promises, but there are quite a few things we'll consider when designing the crafting system. This would be one of them.

 

Thank you, just that you are considering it makes me happy

[kenup]

3. We will have weight in our inventory system,

Aaahh, no, no, no.

[Shades]

3) Modern cRPGs have streamlined inventories to the point where they don't exist. Often, the inventory is a list of items, plus a weight limit just so that your inventory isn't absolutely everything you come across in the game. Seriously, this is poor design. But I suppose it was to be expected, since games have always incentivized players to do busywork by going back and forth hauling short bows and leather armors looted from kobolds.

 

However, I'd ask this: why were they hauling so much trash in the first place? Why is "adventuring" so disfunctional in cRPGs? You don't go adventuring for trash, you go adventuring for treasure!

 

In old school pen 'n pencil RPGs, choosing what to bring with you was a big decision. Too little equipment and you'd be unprepared; too much and you wouldn't be able to run if things turned sour. Deciding how much food and lamp oil was a huge decision to make in dungeon crawls. Getting trapped by a sliding wall in a dungeon with no food is no laughing matter. Actually, any adventuring expedition worth its salt would hire NPCs for that single purpose: carrying things.

 

So, my third and final question is this: what kind of inventory will we see in PE? Will we at least have backpacks, as in Torment and BG, or are we going to have a list of stuff that enables hoarders to carry every single thing they come across?

3. We will have weight in our inventory system, and with more party members (6) we can make that number much smaller than many newer games. We aren't looking to design something that is annoying however. We'll be playing with getting a bit of a "realistic" feel for the inventory without making it super annoying. Hope this helps.

Glad to hear your comment regarding the inventory. The Infinity Engine's inventory system never felt very fun to me, just... tedious. If it's well balanced to allow the tactical elements of the gameplay to shine through, doesn't frustrate the player, and doesn't require you to spend a whole lot of time playing with it to get to the story, I'll be happy.

So does that mean... A list inventory?

 

Personally I actually like the IE inventory style... With bags for the different small things and a bag of holding you run out of space a lot less (it would be interesting if you could have pockets on your paperdoll that opened bags for these things like a gem bag and scroll case, meaning they didn't take up space in your backpack).

[Review or Die]

3) Modern cRPGs have streamlined inventories to the point where they don't exist. Often, the inventory is a list of items, plus a weight limit just so that your inventory isn't absolutely everything you come across in the game. Seriously, this is poor design. But I suppose it was to be expected, since games have always incentivized players to do busywork by going back and forth hauling short bows and leather armors looted from kobolds.

 

However, I'd ask this: why were they hauling so much trash in the first place? Why is "adventuring" so disfunctional in cRPGs? You don't go adventuring for trash, you go adventuring for treasure!

 

In old school pen 'n pencil RPGs, choosing what to bring with you was a big decision. Too little equipment and you'd be unprepared; too much and you wouldn't be able to run if things turned sour. Deciding how much food and lamp oil was a huge decision to make in dungeon crawls. Getting trapped by a sliding wall in a dungeon with no food is no laughing matter. Actually, any adventuring expedition worth its salt would hire NPCs for that single purpose: carrying things.

 

So, my third and final question is this: what kind of inventory will we see in PE? Will we at least have backpacks, as in Torment and BG, or are we going to have a list of stuff that enables hoarders to carry every single thing they come across?

3. We will have weight in our inventory system, and with more party members (6) we can make that number much smaller than many newer games. We aren't looking to design something that is annoying however. We'll be playing with getting a bit of a "realistic" feel for the inventory without making it super annoying. Hope this helps.

Glad to hear your comment regarding the inventory. The Infinity Engine's inventory system never felt very fun to me, just... tedious. If it's well balanced to allow the tactical elements of the gameplay to shine through, doesn't frustrate the player, and doesn't require you to spend a whole lot of time playing with it to get to the story, I'll be happy.

So does that mean... A list inventory?

 

Personally I actually like the IE inventory style... With bags for the different small things and a bag of holding you run out of space a lot less (it would be interesting if you could have pockets on your paperdoll that opened bags for these things like a gem bag and scroll case, meaning they didn't take up space in your backpack).

That's what I prefer based on games I've played. But if Obsidian has other plans that fulfill the goal of letting the player focus on tactical gameplay and the story, I am totally happy. I trust them as developers.

[Potemkin]

Just back the project! It's awesome! And you gotta have some faith in the developers! They're the best in hte industry!

[diablo169]

Hey Bobby, just a question if you are still reading this. Were you a fan of Baldurs Gate 2 and Cromwell the smith? To be honest if you are going to include crafting I think assembling legendary items from various parts would be quite a cool way to do one aspect of it.

[Piccolo]

I share most of the OP's concerns. Crafting in particular is something I kind of wished they would have left out. It's always something fans are going to ask for just because it seems like a cool feature, but honestly, I think it's a waste of time that often detracts from an RPG experience more than it adds to it.

 

2. We like giving the player the freedom to get his/her arse kicked if he/she ignores signs that say "Hey, you're not ready to be here yet!" and they try anyway. The trick is to communicate that information so the player knows an area, or a creature, is probably beyond his current level.

I hope such signs are going to be very subtle, and not always present. Certainly nothing that detracts from the believablity of the gameworld or holds the player's hand too much. I actually like it in RPGs when I can occasionally encounter enemies far beyond my character's own abilities by chance - not necessarily because i've deliberately ignored warnings and ran off into a dangerous area.

 

That might seem punitive or harsh by modern game standards, but I really don't feel as though I need to win every single encounter. Sometimes, running away should be the best option, especially at lower levels. Of course, escape shouldn't always be possible and a character's movement and evasive skills should be a factor, not just how quickly the player can react.

 

That's one of reasons why I prefer turn-based combat to real-time. Fleeing feels like a more natural and viable option with less interference from player skill/reactions and lock-on AI.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Piccolo

[Uomoz]

I'd say back it, even just to be part of the New Age of Gaming.

[KhaineGB]

3. We will have weight in our inventory system,

Aaahh, no, no, no.

 

Considering every single RPG I've ever played has this, I don't get why you're complaining.

 

Even the pen'n'paper games have a weight system for encumbrance.

[kenup]

3. We will have weight in our inventory system,

Aaahh, no, no, no.

 

Considering every single RPG I've ever played has this, I don't get why you're complaining.

 

Even the pen'n'paper games have a weight system for encumbrance.

I don't know about PnP, but if every single cRPG you played has a weight system, then you played too few. Which either way, is not the point.

Edited October 15, 2012 by kenup

[Pangur]

3. We will have weight in our inventory system,

Aaahh, no, no, no.

What's wrong with inventory having weight? Makes complete sense for me.

[Oerwinde]

For crafting I would much rather quest for pieces of legendary items to assemble them than being able to build me a generic longsword. I mostly ignore crafting in a lot of games. Except Skyrim, but mostly because very quickly your crafted equipment is at least twice as good as the strongest stuff you find adventuring.

[Oerwinde]

Double post.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Oerwinde

[descalabro]

Nice compromise for the inventory system, Bobby! And weight should really count for something.

 

Well, in IE games too much weight made your characters walk really slowly and it mattered enough, but I do agree that even in IE games you usually didn't have to make big decisions about what to carry. And items like those magic bags inside which you could fit so much stuff should be extremely rare and hard to obtain/purchase.

[kabaliero]

3. We will have weight in our inventory system,

Aaahh, no, no, no.

 

Ahhhh, yes, yes, yes.

[Jaesun]

Weight for inventory == GOOD. Just like all the IE games. <3