Live recorded music, Poll 2.0

[IndiraLightfoot]

Two more suggestions: At 0:39 there is what sounds like a sledge hammer on an anvil, and also the absolute beginning, the sweeping mood note is clearly not a traditional instrument, more a key pressed on a synth.

Edited October 12, 2012 by IndiraLightfoot

[Monte Carlo]

Nah, I hear the spoons, two coconut halves being banged together and a comb-covered-with tissue combo.

[Monte Carlo]

Did I mention I was tone deaf. If I joined a marching band I'd be the bloke at the front with the stick.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Monte, ain't that the sound team over at the Friends show you watch so diligently?

[Monte Carlo]

Bada-bisch!!! She's here all week, folks!

[IndiraLightfoot]

For real though, MC! I watched a weird documentary about that team on Friends. It was like a guy and a lady who were legends in their field, legends in the industry. They squeezed plastic bags with flour in them and it sounded like footsteps in the snow. And they walked around on all four with boots on their hands, looking dead serious! No kidding!

Edited October 12, 2012 by IndiraLightfoot

[jivex5k]

Live or not...I just want the music to be excellent.

Whatever they need to do to make it as good as the rest of the game is fine with me.

[coffeetable]

As far as which instruments, again who really knows, but I could imagine it might be a mix of traditional western and non-western instruments as well as non conventional elements. What those are exactly, I have no specific idea, just a collection of vague impressions that I can't really put into words yet... South Park is taking up all my time at the moment, and I haven't really had the chance to sit down and think this through, though that day will come. It's really just a matter of time before those impressions inspire something more concrete.

 

Considering the slightly-Celtic theme Sawyer seems to be going with, as a big fan of Scottish folk music I'm going to take this opportunity to prod you towards some good, emotive, fiddlin'. Here's one of the crown jewels of what I'm talking about, Niel Gow's Lament for the Death of his Second Wife:

 

http://grooveshark.c...fe/3pVUqw?src=5

 

It's such a simple lil' refrain, but when it doubles around 2:40, I get shivers. Though maybe that's just me.

 

Backstory: Niel Gow was a 17th century musician, and composed a huge swathe of what's now the basis of Scottish dance music. After the passing of his wife Margaret Urquhart (*cough*), it was a long time before his was convinced to pick his instrument back up, and when he finally did this was the first thing to be played.

 

e: and just because it came up while I was looking for that, now for something ~completely different~

 

http://grooveshark.c...ue/17wIU9?src=5

 

If your foot isn't tapping by 3:00, you should see a doctor about possible nerve damage.

Edited October 13, 2012 by coffeetable

[Casey Edwards]

I didn't listen repeatedly or with the up most focus, but I feel like I heard tin/penny whistle, Bansuri Flute, and some Hurdy Gurdy-ish drones.

[descalabro]

You people need to realize that virtual instruments (or Virtual Studio Technology) are NOT imitated instruments. They are recorded from instruments played by hi-grade musicians with the best microphones, in suitable locations and mixed by professional audio engineers with the best technology available. If they are used properly, we get results very close to the real thing and we save a lot of money. So I don't really see why it is of such an importance that the score of this game is recorded live.

[Benison]

Everyone wants a great, memorable score. Yet it also has to be cost effective.

 

I instantly thougt of Arcanum.

 

Small ensembles can do fantastic things for a RPG.

[Loranc]

I love the options for this poll, problem is I still can't choose. Music really does add a lot to a game, especially for me. But I can't decide between partial or full. The ambient sounds, the cut scenes, all of it really adds to the feel of a game. This is a really important part of making a crpg. But i'm.... completely undecided still.

[the.only.ara54]

In my opinion, some nice music is way more desirable than the player house we know we will have.

[hideo kuze]

Not a bad idea.............

 

I'm sure people would love to contribute to the game, even if it was something simple as a live track coming from a commoner sitting in a street playing a lute, included in the environmental track for the map.

 

That's certainly one way to save money and probably get good quality and a good amount of music into the game.

 

There is probably a way to fit some of your own guitar playing in there too as from the lore update it sounds as if one of those places is kinda Italian/Spanish.

 

edit: Wasteland 2 put up a contributors thread where you could post your skills and a contact email address. Lots of people volunteered. You could do the same except in a post-campaign kickstarter update.

/make it so

 

 

 

I'm personally much more open to amateur volunteering for music input (e.g. those people who wander around Renaissance faires performing) than untried voice actors because the immersive quality is different. Minor imperfections in live music definitely lend a different feel of authenticity to a setting, but imperfect voice acting kinda just breaks everything.

 

Cool idea. It'd be nice to give air time to people who devote themselves professionally or by hobby to rarer instruments because we need more people learning that anyway.

I hadn't thought about VO.

But that is also a good idea that could also be doable.

I'm sure there are a few amateur or semi-professional amateurs that wouldn't mind both having their voice immortalized in the game and add something to their resume.

Their role in the game would be decided by Obsidian according to their proficiency at voice acting.

It could range from 3 or 4 lines to characterize the innkeeper up to 30 or 40 for some more important character.

 

 

Those kind of things would also want to be announced in a Kickstarter update so everyone receives the info, there's only a small percentage of us on these forums.

Good point.

 

 

I really would enjoy some different instuments being used in this game, especially some used in different cultures with interesting tones. One would be the

, the sitar, the

. The TV show Avatar: The Last Airbender really did a great job with using the Neynava and adjusting it digitally to make a very interesting new sound and named the instrument the "

," an instrument that does not exist in the real world but just sounds so perfect. I am not mentioning the more common instruments just becaue I know that they will be found in the game (lute, flute, horn, trumpet, etc) but I am really hoping that the devs consider music instruments worldwide and allow them to influence their creativity whe it comes to locations and themes that can be found in PE.

 

I think that music can really bring depth to any game: it's one of the reasons that games can become so immersive. I think it would be a big mistake to skimp on music for "more" content. Sometimes the right tone and atmosphere can be better described without pictures or words and with the right song. Just imagine your own favorite songs and the wonderful imagery it evokes in your mind whenever you hear it.

Having different instruments, as part of having different cultures, would really be great.

The problem is, from what I understood we will be exploring a small area of the game world. I'm not sure on how much you could vary it.

[Justin Bell]

You people need to realize that virtual instruments (or Virtual Studio Technology) are NOT imitated instruments. They are recorded from instruments played by hi-grade musicians with the best microphones, in suitable locations and mixed by professional audio engineers with the best technology available.

Yes, that's right. Check out this post from another thread for a perfect example of this:

 

http://forums.obsidi...ost__p__1199538

 

In my opinion, some nice music is way more desirable than the player house we know we will have.

What if you just get both instead? It isn't a question of getting one or the other. Here's why:

 

Music is not a stretch goal because it doesn't need to be. We'll have a full score written for the entire game, and we won't limit the amount of minutes or pieces of music. The main limitation is time, and it's something we have plenty of at the moment. In other words, Project Eternity is going to have a score that's just as rich/deep/long/high quality as all the Infinity Engine games did.

 

That's why we're offering things other than music for stretch goals. It's because music came with the package the moment the project got funded three weeks ago...

[Ieo]

You people need to realize that virtual instruments (or Virtual Studio Technology) are NOT imitated instruments. They are recorded from instruments played by hi-grade musicians with the best microphones, in suitable locations and mixed by professional audio engineers with the best technology available. If they are used properly, we get results very close to the real thing and we save a lot of money. So I don't really see why it is of such an importance that the score of this game is recorded live.

 

Of course, it's the performance gestalt that's the key.

 

Example: Recorded telephony narration, like an operator, is often done with a real voice--synthetic voices are extremely off-putting. Makes you cringe. But haven't you noticed how jarring a full sentence of that pre-recorded human voice narration is? It's easy for the human ear to pick up the "unnaturalness" of this sort of thing even despite the "real" recording of individual elements.

 

Performance with live instrumentation has specific imperfections and transitional characteristics that carry genuine immersive and emotive presence. A swelling high note with a scratch on a fiddle, like a broken voice, can carry quite a lot of emotive punch right there. A very slightly off-tune or off-beat instrumentation in a tavern means the players are having fun and are probably as drunk as their clientèle. It's much more "present."

 

 

P.S.: I'm not saying that synthetically composed music is bad or far inferior, of course--I do enjoy it. I'm just saying merely recorded individual notes is not the same as a live performance either.

Edited October 13, 2012 by Ieo

[Ieo]

I wouldn't expect something of this scale, but--

Heroes of Might and Magic IV

After the excellent music that had graced the previous two Heroes titles, expectations ran high that the composers would score a hattrick of outstanding scores. And New World Computing certainly didn't spare any expenses when it came to producing the game's soundtrack. The title sported the largest ensemble yet deployed for any Might and Magic score. After fan protests, the operatic soprano and bass soloists from Heroes of Might and Magic II returned after their absence on part three. More vocal forces were added through the inclusion of the NEVENKA Woman's Choir, a series first — just like the Celtic ensemble which would bring new facets to the fantasy sound of the franchise's world. In the end, over 30 live musicians were involved in the making of the score, including woodwind and cello soloists and a percussion ensemble for the battle tracks.

 

 

(operatic)

 

(orchestral)

 

(woodwinds esp.)

 

(my fave, though I think this is the short version)

[AwesomeOcelot]

I love cello, live recorded cello even better, I really hope this game will have cellos. They probably would make do as an improvised weapon.

[gakmen]

You people need to realize that virtual instruments (or Virtual Studio Technology) are NOT imitated instruments. They are recorded from instruments played by hi-grade musicians with the best microphones, in suitable locations and mixed by professional audio engineers with the best technology available. If they are used properly, we get results very close to the real thing and we save a lot of money. So I don't really see why it is of such an importance that the score of this game is recorded live.

 

Of course, it's the performance gestalt that's the key.

 

Example: Recorded telephony narration, like an operator, is often done with a real voice--synthetic voices are extremely off-putting. Makes you cringe. But haven't you noticed how jarring a full sentence of that pre-recorded human voice narration is? It's easy for the human ear to pick up the "unnaturalness" of this sort of thing even despite the "real" recording of individual elements.

 

Performance with live instrumentation has specific imperfections and transitional characteristics that carry genuine immersive and emotive presence. A swelling high note with a scratch on a fiddle, like a broken voice, can carry quite a lot of emotive punch right there. A very slightly off-tune or off-beat instrumentation in a tavern means the players are having fun and are probably as drunk as their clientèle. It's much more "present."

 

 

P.S.: I'm not saying that synthetically composed music is bad or far inferior, of course--I do enjoy it. I'm just saying merely recorded individual notes is not the same as a live performance either.

 

+1

 

Music is all about phrasing, which is opposite to playing separate notes.

[Casey Edwards]

You people need to realize that virtual instruments (or Virtual Studio Technology) are NOT imitated instruments. They are recorded from instruments played by hi-grade musicians with the best microphones, in suitable locations and mixed by professional audio engineers with the best technology available. If they are used properly, we get results very close to the real thing and we save a lot of money. So I don't really see why it is of such an importance that the score of this game is recorded live.

 

Of course, it's the performance gestalt that's the key.

 

Example: Recorded telephony narration, like an operator, is often done with a real voice--synthetic voices are extremely off-putting. Makes you cringe. But haven't you noticed how jarring a full sentence of that pre-recorded human voice narration is? It's easy for the human ear to pick up the "unnaturalness" of this sort of thing even despite the "real" recording of individual elements.

 

Performance with live instrumentation has specific imperfections and transitional characteristics that carry genuine immersive and emotive presence. A swelling high note with a scratch on a fiddle, like a broken voice, can carry quite a lot of emotive punch right there. A very slightly off-tune or off-beat instrumentation in a tavern means the players are having fun and are probably as drunk as their clientèle. It's much more "present."

 

 

P.S.: I'm not saying that synthetically composed music is bad or far inferior, of course--I do enjoy it. I'm just saying merely recorded individual notes is not the same as a live performance either.

 

Here's the thing though, we're not talking about phrase libraries or one note samples stuck together anymore. With the rise of VSL came an idea called 'True Legato' where now developers have been sampling the 'scoop if you will between notes of different intervals. Plus, effective phrasing can be had with VSTs as well. They have programmable nuances that are used with Continuous Controller Commands, or CC commands. These are most often just volume, dynamics, expression, and velocity sensitive. Then you have extremely detailed developers like Sample Modeling who have made digital imprints of completely controllable vibrato (speed and intensity), growl, breath, key clicks, mutes, etc. And this is just talking about legato patches. There are of course the Round Robin techniques involved with staccatos, marcatos, etc, but there are also extended techniques like trills, rips, flutter tonguing and so on. VSTs in the right hands could fool anyone, or at least make them really challenge their ears to listen for 'mistakes' rather than enjoying the final product. I play ALL of my MIDI data live, and I make sure I breathe properly if it's a wind instrument, and that I phrase lines appropriately. Some people even use EWI's for optimal results.

 

With that said, Ultimately, any composer would love to have their music played live! It's thrilling and full of energy and live performances can't be reenacted in my opinion through the best recording software (Recordings are great, but man, being there!!!). Actually being where the sound is live and hearing the instruments interact with the room is a magical experience. No composer would trade that feeling for anything, I'm sure of it. At the same time, we are extremely blessed to have the technology and the tools we have to work with today, because your average Joe Blow can't afford to even hire a string quartet for an hour, let alone an 80 piece orchestra, a hall, and an engineer for a 5-7 day session.

Edited October 14, 2012 by Casey Edwards

[descalabro]

small ensembles usually don't have enough "aural" dimension to dungeon and exterior areas, and medieval instruments seem to work better for some city streets, fairs and taverns. And a large ensemble is too expensive, that's why I voted for virtual instruments

 

I wouldn't even mind a completely synth based soundtrack if it was done properly. How's that for old school atmosphere?

[Justin Bell]

First off, thanks to everyone who has written in and followed this thread. I'm happy to announce that, due in no small part to this conversation, that we have a new stretch goal that will add Live Musicians to the soundtrack!

 

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity/posts

 

Thank you again for this inspiring conversation. Please, spread the word and help us get those live musicians!

[Ieo]

First off, thanks to everyone who has written in and followed this thread. I'm happy to announce that, due in no small part to this conversation, that we have a new stretch goal that will add Live Musicians to the soundtrack!

 

http://www.kickstart...-eternity/posts

 

Thank you again for this inspiring conversation. Please, spread the word and help us get those live musicians!

 

 

OOOOOAAAHHHHHHHHH!!

:biggrin:

 

 

 

Edit: Hurdy-gurdy!

Edited October 16, 2012 by Ieo

[Kopi]

Live musicians with instruments from the medieval era? Anyways, I hope 4m is possible!

[Karranthain]

First off, thanks to everyone who has written in and followed this thread. I'm happy to announce that, due in no small part to this conversation, that we have a new stretch goal that will add Live Musicians to the soundtrack!

 

http://www.kickstart...-eternity/posts

 

Thank you again for this inspiring conversation. Please, spread the word and help us get those live musicians!

 

That's amazing news, Justin! We'll reach the goal no problem, by the way.

 

And you better start tuning that 12-string guitar