Fair and 'Guiling Copesmate Death?: Death Mechanics in Project Eternity

[Sensuki]

Something I haven't seen much discussion on is the aspects of Death in Project Eternity.

 

 

What is your opinion on death mechanisms? Would you prefer a Baldur's Gate style? or a more forgiving style?

 

This is something I'd be interested in hearing about in an update (if Josh and the team have made any decisions on which angle they're going to go for the death system). I'd like to know whether it will be a brutal death system like Baldur's Gate or a more forgiving KotOR-like style.

 

Perhaps they're going to use different systems on different difficulties? For example, on Expert or Heart of Fury mode, the BG style death?

 

I think I'd enjoy the game if it used a KotOR style death system with party-joinable NPC deaths related to the story or as consequences of my choices in the game (but with some degree of avoidability, for instance, not a if you pick this option, Ashley Williams dies a la Mass Effect). if they're going that route that would be fine.

 

However I wouldn't mind a harsh system like Baldur's Gate as well, that would also be fine.

 

Do you think death should be permanent in Project Eternity? Should a Raise Dead or Ressurection spell exist?

Edited September 27, 2012 by Sensuki

[Shades]

I'd prefer the Baldur's Gate style, because even in other games like Dragon Age that just have your characters knocked out, I still reload if anyone goes down in battle. And since this is a game with one main character it makes more sense for it to be game over if your character dies than the whole party. Though I guess in a way the Baldur's Gate PC dies game over thing could be related to what the PC is in that (after all, despite what was said in ToB Sarevok turned into corn chips and the death scene implies that death is a one-off thing for your PC).

 

Some sort of Raise Dead spells or someone you can go to for such a thing would certainly be very useful. And I don't mind plot deaths at all, though it would be a nice touch if there was a reason why you couldn't raise a companion who had been plot deathed (for example they were too horribly mutilated, body unable to be recovered because they fell into a huge chasm/the sea, dead for too long so their soul had moved on, disintegrated, dismembered, burned to a crisp, eaten, melted, etc).

[Sensuki]

Could also have something to do with the fragmentation level of their soul as well I guess

[TrashMan]

Party NPC death? Sure.

 

But to make it a bit more forgiving, insted of death at -10Hp, death at - 1/2 max HP.

That gives a bigger buffer and it makes it more unlikely for your companions to die.

[Shades]

So they fall unconscious at 0? And then you have to try and distract any enemies around them before they kick the bucket completely. I can see how that could work.

 

It would be interesting to see how the soul thing can influence souls and resurrection.

[Karranthain]

Baldur's Gate style works best for me. I abhor the KOTOR or DA mechanics - makes the companions nothing more than cannon fodder. It more often that not makes combat trivial.

[Amentep]

I never liked BG2's mechanics because it was relatively easy to get "killed" via spells that should have been cancellable by the party ending the game. I think I prefer the IWD method that TPK is what ends the game. Since it is PC centric (unlike IWD) perhaps when the fight ends the game fades to black and has the PC awaken at a a church being brought back by the NPCs giving the illusion of the PC actually being out of commission (penalty of X days past and X money lost maybe?)

 

That said KoTOR and DA mechanics work find in games where the tactics mostly involve dog piling the enemy (ie I never felt combat in those games were tactical so much as a war of attrition on each side). but maybe that's me - I'm not the best tactical player in the world unless its fully turn-based combat.

[Gecimen]

why perma death if you're going to reload right after anyways?

 

it should be put as a difficulty mode.

[phimseto]

Great poll. I'd love to see Obsidian make a series of similar ones for all the backers at the end, just so they can gauge the crowd's expectations. The polls wouldn't be binding obviously, but it couldn't hurt to have a lay of the land.

[Lron]

why perma death if you're going to reload right after anyways?

Why make it possible to fail anything if you're going to reload right after anyways?

[phimseto]

By the way, Sensuki, I keep forgetting to say to you that I 100% approve and support your use of Geralt as your profile picture.

[jtav]

I'd suggest something like the KOTOR/NWN2 system, perhaps also incorporating the DAO's injury mechanic. BG2's worked because the number of potential companions was quite sizeable. As I understand it, even if all stretch goals are met, there will be less than ten potential companions for a party of six.

[LordCrash]

There are really people who vote for automatic resurrection after combat??? Damn, these modern casual RPGs have really beaten the last bit of reality out of our beloved genre....

[LordCrash]

why perma death if you're going to reload right after anyways?

 

it should be put as a difficulty mode.

Because it's the core of the combat system of games like BG 2 to find the right tactics against enemies. So when a companions dies in combat and you reload the game, it's a part of the gameplay mechanics (except you're so good that you don't have to reload a single time but even then you have to think about making another approach when a companion dies....).

[Tale]

My prefer is for permanent death for companions to be possible in combat... IF the combat is tight (not too swingy) enough that we don't feel the death is random. This most commonly about the AI.

 

If the AI is so dumb that the fragile companion tries thwacking enemies by rushing ahead of the group all of the time, then not really a fan. This pops up a lot in KOTOR, NWN2, Dragon Age. It didn't pop up as much in Baldur's Gate because, I think, the Isometric design forced more strategy instead of just letting the AI do their own thing.

[LordCrash]

My prefer is for permanent death for companions to be possible in combat... IF the combat is tight (not too swingy) enough that we don't feel the death is random. This most commonly about the AI.

 

If the AI is so dumb that the fragile companion tries thwacking enemies by rushing ahead of the group all of the time, then not really a fan. This pops up a lot in KOTOR, NWN2, Dragon Age. It didn't pop up as much in Baldur's Gate because, I think, the Isometric design forced more strategy instead of just letting the AI do their own thing.

 

If I remember correctly permanent death in combat was never random in BG 2. Companions could only die in consequence of certain high level spells like being turned to stone and then getting smashed or being imprisoned or others.

[Amentep]

why perma death if you're going to reload right after anyways?

 

it should be put as a difficulty mode.

 

Oddly enough, I feel like making bad choices and having to go back to an earlier save is appropriate negative feedback. In games where you just respawn and keep hacking with a xp/gold penalty it just doesn't feel like there's a consequence to really, really bad decisions.

 

In that sense some kind of permadeath supports choice and consequence.

 

My prefer is for permanent death for companions to be possible in combat... IF the combat is tight (not too swingy) enough that we don't feel the death is random. This most commonly about the AI.

 

If the AI is so dumb that the fragile companion tries thwacking enemies by rushing ahead of the group all of the time, then not really a fan. This pops up a lot in KOTOR, NWN2, Dragon Age. It didn't pop up as much in Baldur's Gate because, I think, the Isometric design forced more strategy instead of just letting the AI do their own thing.

 

I dunno, depending on what script was set up, it was very easy for BG/IWD characters to get pulled after enemies in my experience leading them to being alone and surounded. Fallout 1 and 2 was also bad for this, as I recall.

 

 

If I remember correctly permanent death in combat was never random in BG 2. Companions could only die in consequence of certain high level spells like being turned to stone and then getting smashed or being imprisoned or others.

 

I seem to recall in BG2 you have to change to D&D rules (or am I thinking IWD?) for the character to still get "chunked" and unable to be brought back (portrait removed from the party).

Edited September 27, 2012 by Amentep

[Sensuki]

yeah BG2, Core Rules I think

 

BG1 was salarta m8 at -10 no matter what

Edited September 27, 2012 by Sensuki

[rjshae]

The wound system from DA worked pretty well, I think. Not enough of a consequence to make a game restore worthwhile, but enough so that it eventually needs to be dealt with.

[Loki Ador]

I do not like the idea of permanent death triggered by combat. It makes such an important event far too random, especially considering that there will not be so many recruitable companions in PE.

 

Indeed, BG1 had very numerous companions available, it was henceforth easy to replace a fallen one. In such regard, a PC being randomly vaporized during a fight could make sense as the loss might be compensated by recruiting another one.

 

However, with so few companions (7 if all stretch goals are achieved, as far as I remember, for a 6 companions party), permanently losing a companion would be frustrating. Companions in Planescape Torment could not be permanently killed in combat for this very reason.

 

Now I understand that some people would actually like that. In this regard, I think it may not be to hard to implement as an option: just a switch the player can toggle to enbale/disable permanent death in combat.

 

In general, the game should be highly customizable in terms of difficulty adjustment.

[Lagole Gon]

Rare permadeaths. Deaths a little bit more forgiving than BG. For example, negative HP mechanics depending on attributes.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Lagole Gon

[Lysen]

Permanent death means that the player can actually fail, that there is no hand-holding. It isn't fun to play a game where you cannot fail.

[Sylvius the Mad]

For death, I like the Baldur's Gate approach. If you're dead, you're dead. You don't get back up again without some sort of extreme intervention.

 

But I didn't like how BG handled PC death. I understand why it did, but it diminished the game somewhat. I'd like to see the party be able to carry on even if the PC is dead.

[wanderon]

I like the concept of real death with options for reversing it over the Knocked out/wake up and be back to normal in 5 seconds method and I'm not fond of the idea of treating PC death differently than NPC death in a party based atmosphere.

 

As long as someone in the party lives to jump through whatever hoops are provided to raise the PC and/or others I don't want to see the game over screen.

 

For PE it looks like we might see different death options depending on difficulty mode chosen and I like that concept.

[The Guilty Party]

It seems like permadeath of companions would be something tied to one of the optional difficulty modes. Because I can see the appeal of the *option* to say 'I've played this game a dozen times, so this time through the game, if someone dies, they're dead. It will spice things up.' If the game auto-rezes your characters, you literally can't do that and that sucks.

 

But personally, in normal gameplay, if a companion bites it permanently, it's reload time.